Commercial renting website

[Deb & Bill]

Tony, were you up all night thinking of your response or did it just come to you in a dream?????

 

[Tagrel]

They aren't only stealing Disney's images. After just a quick scan I found one of my SAB pics on their CONTACTS page.

http://mouseavenue.com/contactus.aspx

Of course, I find my site smilies on the DIS all the time, but that is different!

 

[bmalonef45]

Have they no shame? Send them an email or something to tell them they can't just take your image and post it on their site. I don't understand why they think this is something that's permitted.

I know the commercial renting of points is the real problem or big deal here but the total lack of care for other people's work almost bothers me more. Probably just me.

 

[Disney MAINEiac]

Now this I disagree with.

I owned over 1400 points at one time. Does that make me a bad guy or a commercial renter? No it did not.

People can do what they want with their points, period. This person pays dues just like you or I.

Point morphing would be the only problem and I see no evidence of that.

Renting points seems to be the latest Dis board witch hunt and I really don't get it. What difference does it make if that owner books for themselves all the weeks or rents? Booked rooms are booked rooms regardless of who stays in them.

I for one won't lose a seconds sleep over this.

owning a lot of points is not a problem, if you use them all yourself, kudos if you can afford it. if you use them yourself you take up one room. the problem as i see it is that they could rent out several studios potentially all at the same time limiting the number of rooms available for actual members making it harder for someone who actually pays dues to use their points during the times they really want to.

or am I missing something?

 

[dumbo71]

owning a lot of points is not a problem, if you use them all yourself, kudos if you can afford it. if you use them yourself you take up one room. the problem as i see it is that they could rent out several studios potentially all at the same time limiting the number of rooms available for actual members making it harder for someone who actually pays dues to use their points during the times they really want to.

or am I missing something?

Yes you are missing something.

What about the owner who rents three or four studios with HIS/HER points and has family staying with them? Makes no difference if it is renters in those studios or family. Those rooms would still be booked.

Someone who owns 1500 points in entitled to book rooms using those 1500 points each and every year. It makes no diference whatsoever if they use them or rent them. Rooms still will be taken.

Commercial renters hurt no one despite what you'll read here on the DIS.

They were hurting owners of the small resorts by morphing points but that is an entirely different problem and one that has seemingly been eliminated with the one transfer rule and the propper tracking of transferred points so they maintain the home resort status intended.

Really if people would just think about this logically for a moment they would get off this bandwagon.

 

[Disney MAINEiac]

I would agree that the family scenario is no different, but thats the rub, they are clearly not setting up this web site trying to convince family to come on down and join us for a nice vacation, now are they. No I think when they do it for commercial gain and it costs people who have laid out hard earned money to participate an pay dues for up keep to possibly not get a room, then i have a real problem with that. At that point it does affect people and disney should not allow it.

excuse me while I put my soap box away

 

[Snookies]

Whether we agree that "Commercial renters hurt no one despite what you'll read here on the DIS" is irrelevant since the DVC Multi-Site POS prohibitis commercial renting. The POS, revised 11/2004, states:

"7.3 Personal Use Only. Use of the Vacation Homes and related facilities of a DVC Resort is limited solely to the personal use of Club Members, their guests, invitees, exchangers and lessees and for recreational use by corporations or other similar business entities owning Ownership Interests, while staying as a registered guest at a DVC Resort. No Owner may occupy a Unit or Vacation Home or use any recreational facilities or Common Elements at any time other than during the time that a Vacation home is properly reserved in acordance with the Condominium Documents. Purchase of an Ownership Interest or use of Vacation Homes and related facilities of a DVC Resort for commercial purposes or for any purpose other than the personal use described above is expressly prohibiited." (p. 37)

"3. Making Reservations for Non-Club Members

1) Club Members may use their home Resort Vacation Points to reserve Vacation Homes that will be occupied by non-Club Members.

2) When a Club Member uses his or her home Resort Vacation Points to reserve Vacation homes on behalf of a non-Club Member, and the Club Member does not charge any rental or other fees to the non-Club Member for the reservation, the non-Club Member is eligible for all or some of the Club Member privileges and benefits that a Club Member would normally receive during his or her stay in the reserved Vacation Home. If the non-Club Member is renting, it is the responsibility of the Member to notify Member Services when making the reservation. Member privileges and benefits cannot be extended to non-Club Members who rent Vacation Homes from Club Members." (p. 50)

I wonder whether this POS language has changed over time. Moreover, I'm curious about the number of times that Members notify Member Services that a reservation is being made for a renting non-club member. Many have pointed out that the definition of commercial renting is nebulous at best. I suspect, however, that DVC Management will argue that it is within their discretion to to define what constitutes commercial renting.

 

[Muushka]

Yes you are missing something.

What about the owner who rents three or four studios with HIS/HER points and has family staying with them? Makes no difference if it is renters in those studios or family. Those rooms would still be booked.

Someone who owns 1500 points in entitled to book rooms using those 1500 points each and every year. It makes no diference whatsoever if they use them or rent them. Rooms still will be taken.

Commercial renters hurt no one despite what you'll read here on the DIS.

They were hurting owners of the small resorts by morphing points but that is an entirely different problem and one that has seemingly been eliminated with the one transfer rule and the propper tracking of transferred points so they maintain the home resort status intended.

Really if people would just think about this logically for a moment they would get off this bandwagon.

I used to get upset when I read comments such as this bolded one. But after getting into a shouting match (with, was it Mushpurple?), I realized that those commercial renters who book the Sun thru Fri during very desirable time at small resorts did not affect me. We pretty much always book a 1 BR, so it mattered not to me.

So yes, thinking about it logically, I am getting off this bandwagon .

I am not sure about my DIS friends who book studios, though .

 

[rkdahl]

How did you get this information?

BTW, have you checked out the # of pts to rent a grand villa at BWV? $83K in points doesnt last long.

I just got the web site owners name, address and city from WHOIS, went to the public Orange County property web site, searched for the owner and wifes name in the deeded property records and added up the contracts. I did it real quick, they might have more than the $83,000. That was just my first pass at it last night.

 

[dumbo71]

Whether we agree that "Commercial renters hurt no one despite what you'll read here on the DIS" is irrelevant since the DVC Multi-Site POS prohibitis commercial renting. The POS, revised 11/2004, states:

"7.3 Personal Use Only. Use of the Vacation Homes and related facilities of a DVC Resort is limited solely to the personal use of Club Members, their guests, invitees, exchangers and lessees and for recreational use by corporations or other similar business entities owning Ownership Interests, while staying as a registered guest at a DVC Resort. No Owner may occupy a Unit or Vacation Home or use any recreational facilities or Common Elements at any time other than during the time that a Vacation home is properly reserved in acordance with the Condominium Documents. Purchase of an Ownership Interest or use of Vacation Homes and related facilities of a DVC Resort for commercial purposes or for any purpose other than the personal use described above is expressly prohibiited." (p. 37)

"3. Making Reservations for Non-Club Members

1) Club Members may use their home Resort Vacation Points to reserve Vacation Homes that will be occupied by non-Club Members.

2) When a Club Member uses his or her home Resort Vacation Points to reserve Vacation homes on behalf of a non-Club Member, and the Club Member does not charge any rental or other fees to the non-Club Member for the reservation, the non-Club Member is eligible for all or some of the Club Member privileges and benefits that a Club Member would normally receive during his or her stay in the reserved Vacation Home. If the non-Club Member is renting, it is the responsibility of the Member to notify Member Services when making the reservation. Member privileges and benefits cannot be extended to non-Club Members who rent Vacation Homes from Club Members." (p. 50)

I wonder whether this POS language has changed over time. Moreover, I'm curious about the number of times that Members notify Member Services that a reservation is being made for a renting non-club member. Many have pointed out that the definition of commercial renting is nebulous at best. I suspect, however, that DVC Management will argue that it is within their discretion to to define what constitutes commercial renting.

I am glad you posted this because it in fact proves that renting IS and ALWAYS will be allowed.

Thanks for making my case for me.

 

[rkwells]

This does bring clarity to this issue. Sounds to me the only problem would be if you purchased your points not for personal use but with the intention of renting for commercial profit.

 

[dumbo71]

This does bring clarity to this issue. Sounds to me the only problem would be if you purchased your points not for personal use but with the intention of renting for commercial profit.

That wouldn't matter either.

Lets get down to the nitty gritty of this subject because people here miss the point even when it is clearly spelled out for them.

Why does DVC sudenly care about renting????? It has been going on for over 13 years, why now is it of importance?

This is my theory based on my experience as a renter, talks with DVC legal, MS, and Carli Dagostino and some good old fashioned speculation.

I think that the crack down occurred because DVC was being threatened with legal action of some form. Simple audits of DVC books would CLEARLY show that more points were being used at the small properties than were issued. This is a clear violation of Timeshare law. Someone found out and pushed DVC on this.

How does this happen? Simple, DVC has poor tracking of transferred points. People would transfer SSR points into a BCV contract and the points would magically become BCV points. Called point "morphing" here on the DIS. With unlimited transfers being allowed the "commercial renter" could have a field day. Not only were they over booking the small popular properties like BCV, they weren't even paying dues on those points. Many were distressed points gotten cheap, morphed, and the expiration of those points extended.

I truly believe this is all DVC cares about, their own butt. They stopped this for the most part in 3 ways, 1 transfer rule, better tracking of transferred points which is far easier now with the 1 limit, threat of crack down on commercial renters. These 3 things have helped the situation.

I also believe this is the only legal course of action they could take. Legaly, there is nothing they can do about renting whether some here want to dispute it or not. Commercial or otherwise, they don't have a legal leg to stand on. Websites removed have been for Copyright violations not rental enforcement.

Please show me one example of enforcement. We have not heard of any even here on the DIS.

Go ahead shoot holes in my theory but that is my theory and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Chuck S]

Considering that all resorts are available to all members at the 7 month mark, how is it possible to use more points than what were issued? My guess it that it is in response to owners complaining about lack of availability during the 11 month window because prime weeks were being snapped up (several reservations on one phone call) then those owners who didn't get their booking saw that time period being offered on the internet the next day.

 

[OneMoreTry]

Whether we agree that "Commercial renters hurt no one despite what you'll read here on the DIS" is irrelevant since the DVC Multi-Site POS prohibitis commercial renting. The POS, revised 11/2004, states:

......

2) When a Club Member uses his or her home Resort Vacation Points to reserve Vacation homes on behalf of a non-Club Member, and the Club Member does not charge any rental or other fees to the non-Club Member for the reservation, the non-Club Member is eligible for all or some of the Club Member privileges and benefits that a Club Member would normally receive during his or her stay in the reserved Vacation Home. If the non-Club Member is renting, it is the responsibility of the Member to notify Member Services when making the reservation. Member privileges and benefits cannot be extended to non-Club Members who rent Vacation Homes from Club Members." (p. 50)

....

Disney DOES differentiate between rentals and non-rental usage by non-owners. Why would some amenities be extended to free guests and not $$ renters???

It seems to me and my simplistic concept of economics that if all rentals stopped, the value of points would drop in proportion to the percentage of points that were being rented. If that were a substantial percentage, I don't think there would be enough market for DVC to keep adding resorts. BECAUSE, there are some people who want to use DVC but don't want to commit to 50 years. So they only use DVC because they can rent as needed. This extra $$ feeds the DVC machine. Otherwise the occasional renters and their $$ would feed other onsite or offsite hotels.

With this in mind (and if morphing is really stopped) I can't really think of how commercial rentals materially hurt DVC owners other than the fact that occasional renters have no personal stake in the property and are therefore less likely to take care for it when they use it.

That said, I don't like the idea of commercial renting for the same reason I don't want to live in a neighborhood where all the other houses are rentals. Non-committed owners are just that. There IS a difference. When it comes down to it, it has nothing to do, really, with 11month windows or $$$.

 

[byoung]

I agree it lok's like commercial renting.

 

[Doctor P]

That wouldn't matter either.

Lets get down to the nitty gritty of this subject because people here miss the point even when it is clearly spelled out for them.

Why does DVC sudenly care about renting????? It has been going on for over 13 years, why now is it of importance?

This is my theory based on my experience as a renter, talks with DVC legal, MS, and Carli Dagostino and some good old fashioned speculation.

I think that the crack down occurred because DVC was being threatened with legal action of some form. Simple audits of DVC books would CLEARLY show that more points were being used at the small properties than were issued. This is a clear violation of Timeshare law. Someone found out and pushed DVC on this.

How does this happen? Simple, DVC has poor tracking of transferred points. People would transfer SSR points into a BCV contract and the points would magically become BCV points. Called point "morphing" here on the DIS. With unlimited transfers being allowed the "commercial renter" could have a field day. Not only were they over booking the small popular properties like BCV, they weren't even paying dues on those points. Many were distressed points gotten cheap, morphed, and the expiration of those points extended.

I truly believe this is all DVC cares about, their own butt. They stopped this for the most part in 3 ways, 1 transfer rule, better tracking of transferred points which is far easier now with the 1 limit, threat of crack down on commercial renters. These 3 things have helped the situation.

I also believe this is the only legal course of action they could take. Legaly, there is nothing they can do about renting whether some here want to dispute it or not. Commercial or otherwise, they don't have a legal leg to stand on. Websites removed have been for Copyright violations not rental enforcement.

Please show me one example of enforcement. We have not heard of any even here on the DIS.

Go ahead shoot holes in my theory but that is my theory and I'm sticking to it.

I'm sorry, but I discount any opinion from a commercial renter on this issue. Based on your previous posts, there seemed to be pretty clear evidence that you could be considered a commercial renter by many definitions and, with due respect, I think that would color anyone's view on the issue. Goes to the credibility of the opinion. JMHO. BTW, I do think that the morphing issue was a big part of this. On that we certainly agree.

 

[dumbo71]

Considering that all resorts are available to all members at the 7 month mark, how is it possible to use more points than what were issued? My guess it that it is in response to owners complaining about lack of availability during the 11 month window because prime weeks were being snapped up (several reservations on one phone call) then those owners who didn't get their booking saw that time period being offered on the internet the next day.

Interesting question Chuck.

When you have a small resort with a limted number of points and then you add points being morphed from other resorts to book at 11 months you have got problems.

We are really saying the same thing. Those morphed points were leading to availability issues inside the 11 - 7 month home resort advantage time. This likely did lead to complaints from owners.

I still feel an audit would show more points used than issued. Points used from other DVC resorts to book at 7 months or less would not be counted in those totals.

Remember this is just an educated guess on my part but one that I find very plausible.

 

[Doctor P]

Interesting question Chuck.

When you have a small resort with a limted number of points and then you add points being morphed from other resorts to book at 11 months you have got problems.

We are really saying the same thing. Those morphed points were leading to availability issues inside the 11 - 7 month home resort advantage time. This likely did lead to complaints from owners.

I still feel an audit would show more points used than issued. Points used from other DVC resorts to book at 7 months or less would not be counted in those totals.

Remember this is just an educated guess on my part but one that I find very plausible.

I definitely agree with you.

 

[dumbo71]

I'm sorry, but I discount any opinion from a commercial renter on this issue. Based on your previous posts, there seemed to be pretty clear evidence that you could be considered a commercial renter by many definitions and, with due respect, I think that would color anyone's view on the issue. Goes to the credibility of the opinion. JMHO. BTW, I do think that the morphing issue was a big part of this. On that we certainly agree.

Fair enough and I understand why you feel that way.

I was no commercial renter. 24 or so rentals in 12 years with no transfers is not a commercial renter.

I can't blast you for discounting my opinion here. I would discount someone who was a frequent renter on the rent/trade board as well. If this helps I no longer rent ANY points.

At least we agree on the morphing issue.

 

[Doctor P]

Fair enough and I understand why you feel that way.

I was no commercial renter. 24 or so rentals in 12 years with no transfers is not a commercial renter.

I can't blast you for discounting my opinion here. I would discount someone who was a frequent renter on the rent/trade board as well. If this helps I no longer rent ANY points.

At least we agree on the morphing issue.

And without more information, I will admit that there it is possible that there could also be some pretty good ways of defending yourself against a claim that you indeed were doing commercial renting. I think if they handle the point morphing problem and limit transfers a lot of the more egregious problems will go away. Going after the copyright infringement can also help shut down some of the more blatant offenders, IMHO.