College entrance cheating scandal

[gwynne]

This thread is an excellent example as to why our criminal justice system is so based on punishment. It's like it's personal or something.

Well, fraud is just one of those things you are either for or against.

 

[Floridaman999]

Well, fraud is just one of those things you are either for or against.

Yeah, you can be against something and still wish to approach it differently, but okay. Go get em.

 

[cabanafrau]

This thread is an excellent example as to why our criminal justice system is so based on punishment. It's like it's personal or something.

In Michigan we have policy based on individualized sentencing, which is intended to fit the specific circumstances of the specific crime, as well as the individual involved. Sentences are meant for the discipline or punishment of the wrongdoer, the protection of society and the deterring of others from committing like offenses.

Do you feel those convicted in this scheme should not be punished or disciplined? Why not? If yes, what do you think it would take to discipline or punish these particular individuals?

Electing not to "punish" for these crimes because they can be conceived as victimless opens the door that leads to a steep slope and a fairly chaotic slide down.

 

[tex1989]

Yeah, you can be against something and still wish to approach it differently, but okay. Go get em.

I am just curious. Based on this and an earlier comment I am not sure I understand what you are saying. I am getting sort of a what's the big deal, why is what they did a crime at all feel.

I am not trying to read anything into your comments, just curious is all.

 

[Floridaman999]

I am just curious. Based on this and an earlier comment I am not sure I understand what you are saying. I am getting sort of a what's the big deal, why is what they did a crime at all feel.

I am not trying to read anything into your comments, just curious is all.

That would be incorrect. I don't feel that way at all. I believe every one of them should be tried for their crimes and appropriate sentences given. My comments are about our criminal justice system and that's about it. Actually, it's more about the people our criminal justice system protects. What people decide to throw into what I've said is pretty much on them.

 

[Floridaman999]

In Michigan we have policy based on individualized sentencing, which is intended to fit the specific circumstances of the specific crime, as well as the individual involved. Sentences are meant for the discipline or punishment of the wrongdoer, the protection of society and the deterring of others from committing like offenses.

Do you feel those convicted in this scheme should not be punished or disciplined? Why not? If yes, what do you think it would take to discipline or punish these particular individuals?

Electing not to "punish" for these crimes because they can be conceived as victimless opens the door that leads to a steep slope and a fairly chaotic slide down.

Nope, don't believe I said that at all.

 

[Floridaman999]

My comments weren't about the punishment I believe they deserve. It's about the vitriol and strong desire for punishment I see in this thread. Our criminal justice system is based on punishment first and foremost. I don't always agree with the desire to punish and sometimes think there are better ways. I don't necessarily believe there is a better way here. I was simply pointing out how the punishment and ruining of people, or at least some of the people, seems to be so important to some.

 

[cabanafrau]

Nope, don't believe I said that at all.

Yes, you bolded my question to you. I then asked questions based on whether you answered yes or no to the first question. I wouldn't have asked the question if I thought you had already given the answer.

 

[Floridaman999]

Yes, you bolded my question to you. I then asked questions based on whether you answered yes or no to the first question. I wouldn't have asked the question if I thought you had already given the answer.

My comments weren't about the punishment I believe they deserve. It's about the vitriol and strong desire for punishment I see in this thread. Our criminal justice system is based on punishment first and foremost. I don't always agree with the desire to punish and sometimes think there are better ways. I don't necessarily believe there is a better way here. I was simply pointing out how the punishment and ruining of people, or at least the some of the people, seems to be so important to some.

 

[cabanafrau]

My comments weren't about the punishment I believe they deserve. It's about the vitriol and strong desire for punishment I see in this thread. Our criminal justice system is based on punishment first and foremost. I don't always agree with the desire to punish and sometimes think there are better ways. I don't necessarily believe there is a better way here. I was simply pointing out how the punishment and ruining of people, or at least the some of the people, seems to be so important to some.

My vantage point of the criminal justice system shows me a very different picture than you suggest.

ETA I also believe there's a wide variety of reasons why punishment in these cases will be very important. The idea of wealth and the its potential power to override the law is not inconsequential by any means.

 

[Floridaman999]

My vantage point of the criminal justice system shows me a very different picture than you suggest.

That seems to be the case. My vantage point clearly shows something different as well.

I was simply pointing out how the punishment and ruining of people, or at least some of the people, seems to be so important to some.

 

[mom2rtk]

My comments weren't about the punishment I believe they deserve. It's about the vitriol and strong desire for punishment I see in this thread. Our criminal justice system is based on punishment first and foremost. I don't always agree with the desire to punish and sometimes think there are better ways. I don't necessarily believe there is a better way here. I was simply pointing out how the punishment and ruining of people, or at least the some of the people, seems to be so important to some.

I don't see any vitriol here. I just see it as people not wanting celebrities to be able to buy their way out of it.

 

[Floridaman999]

I don't see any vitriol here. I just see it as people not wanting celebrities to be able to buy their way out of it.

I guess we don't read things the same way. That's okay with me though, I certainly am open to everyone having an opinion.

By the way, I don't believe they should be able to buy their way out of it either.

 

[Floridaman999]

My vantage point of the criminal justice system shows me a very different picture than you suggest.

ETA I also believe there's a wide variety of reasons why punishment in these cases will be very important. The idea of wealth and the its potential power to override the law is not inconsequential by any means.

I don't really disagree with you here. I've made it clear what my comment was about. I believe punishment beyond a financial one is important in this case simply because of the people at play. My comment was not about this particular case, but the widespread demand for punishment and "justice" that our system is based on. I've said it now multiple times. If people continue to disregard what I've said then I can't do much about that.

 

[cabanafrau]

That seems to be the case. My vantage point clearly shows something different as well.

I was simply pointing out how the punishment and ruining of people, or at least some of the people, seems to be so important to some.

I think the punishment in this case is going to be important to our society as a whole because I think looking the other way on this one would have very damaging implications in a wide variety of ways.

If someone chooses to view an idea like mine of house arrest, substantial fines and plenty of hard, not very pleasant hours of community service as vengeful, so be it. I'd have no problem explaining to a court the line of reasoning behind all three prongs of punishment I've outlined and exactly what result I am seeking to achieve with each prong.

 

[Floridaman999]

I think the punishment in this case is going to be important to our society as a whole because I think looking the other way on this one would have very damaging implications in a wide variety of ways.

If someone chooses to view an idea like mine of house arrest, substantial fines and plenty of hard, not very pleasant hours of community service as vengeful, so be it. I'd have no problem explaining to a court the line of reasoning behind all three prongs of punishment I've outlined and exactly what result I am seeking to achieve with each prong.

Again, I don't disagree with you on this case. I was making a statement about other things, but we can continue on with this I suppose. It isn't going to get us anywhere though, because we're in agreement with the punishment needed for this case. The punishment you've outlined isn't based on ruining someones life and vengeance, in my opinion.

 

[gwynne]

I don't see any vitriol here. I just see it as people not wanting celebrities to be able to buy their way out of it.

Exactly. And I will add, I believe most of us here would have thought it much wiser for Lori to have taken the offered deal.

 

[tex1989]

If your point, Floridaman999 is that the Civil and Criminal justice system in this country is not a fair and equal process I will agree. I think you are also saying that many people are ready to throw the book at some and that is based perhaps on jealousy, envy or other more base emotions. In other words base the penalty on how much you loathe the person as opposed to the actual crime they are convicted of. It stems from many like to see the powerful and mighty fall.

I have personal experience in that I worked for Enron for many years and while I was not working there when they failed it cost me a lot of money. I wished for the longest possible sentences for those guys and could care less what the outcomes of the trials were I just wanted them thrown under the jail for life.

But if there is any good from the trial being in Federal Court that is the fact that the sentencing guidelines are much more defined than in state courts. Time served is directly correlated to the $ value of the crime and the nuber of charges laid on. There is some discretion the judge has, but the majority of the sentence determination comes from a plea bargin if there is one submitted. Judges on the federal level tend to take note of the deals prosecuters cut with defendents and try to give time agreed to.

 

[Floridaman999]

If your point, Floridaman999 is that the Civil and Criminal justice system in this country is not a fair and equal process I will agree. I think you are also saying that many people are ready to throw the book at some and that is based perhaps on jealousy, envy or other more base emotions. In other words base the penalty on how much you loathe the person as opposed to the actual crime they are convicted of. It stems from many like to see the powerful and mighty fall.

I have personal experience in that I worked for Enron for many years and while I was not working there when they failed it cost me a lot of money. I wished for the longest possible sentences for those guys and could care less what the outcomes of the trials were I just wanted them thrown under the jail for life.

But if there is any good from the trial being in Federal Court that is the fact that the sentencing guidelines are much more defined than in state courts. Time served is directly correlated to the $ value of the crime and the nuber of charges laid on. There is some discretion the judge has, but the majority of the sentence determination comes from a plea bargin if there is one submitted. Judges on the federal level tend to take note of the deals prosecuters cut with defendents and try to give time agreed to.

Thanks for putting it a lot more clearly than I apparently did the first time.

 

[cabanafrau]

That would be incorrect. I don't feel that way at all. I believe every one of them should be tried for their crimes and appropriate sentences given. My comments are about our criminal justice system and that's about it. Actually, it's more about the people our criminal justice system protects. What people decide to throw into what I've said is pretty much on them.

I'm not sure we're really understanding what you're getting at. Speaking for myself, I'm not quite clear, which is why I was discussing it with you to understand your thoughts.

ETA Just saw post above, posting at same time I think.