Christmas Shopping Propaganda?

[rusty4]

I should point out that the article I posted from CNN money says that the crowds were up but that the sales were slightly up. So I don't think that we can base it on the crowds. The sales according to their article only rose a slight 0.3% even though crowds were up 2.2%.

 

[luvsJack]

I don't think it is media hype. From what I have personally experienced Black Friday this year was WAY more crowded and crazy that it was last year. Last year it was like a ghost town in the stores I was in (Wal-Mart, Target, etc.) Online deals especially on Amazon are going within seconds -- yes literally seconds. Although online is hard to judge because one never knows how many items are available.

Most of the people I know have more stability and security this year than they had last year. Last year everyone seemed to be afraid of loosing their jobs. This year not so much. Many of those that I know who were unemployed are now employed even though in some cases their employment is beneath where they were before.

I don't believe that things are worse than ever. As a whole (there are exceptions) things seems to be stabilizing if not improving.

I am glad to hear that it is getting better in some places, not that way here at all. But, MS is usually the last one hit and the last one to recover.

The stores really were crazy first thing in the morning so I can see that maybe sales over all were up, but that "later in the day" part is what is scary to me. But then our BF sales weren't as dismal as everyone is reporting for last year either. Our crowds last year were not as big at the 5 a.m. openings but much bigger later in the day--when they would be spending the most money.

 

[eliza61]

Nearly everyone agrees that the economy is majorly messed up and that double-digit unemployment may be permanent. Yet the media which reports this also says that holiday spending is up from this time last year. From what I saw Black Friday was Ghost Town Friday until the "tree lighting ceremony" grew near in our biggest shopping district, despite the stores opening early in the mornings. I don't know how much of that foot traffic spent much money on merchandise late at night because I got my groceries and went home by sunset without going to the tree with the crowd.

Do you believe that spending is up much, or is this just propaganda put out by the media at the insistence of their advertisers? Maybe what I witnessed was the exception, but I am wondering if the claims of buying frenzies are just an attempt to create what does not exist by implying that anyone not out shopping is not in with the in-crowd.

Black friday was a madhouse here in South Jersey.

Also remember the unemployment figures are just a small part of the overall economic picture.
For example, my company and many other companies (even the airline industry) are all reporting profits this year. when companies make money their employees all feel better about giving up the cash.
American auto industry is doing well. I believe GM and chevy both paid back their government loans and are solvent, they are selling cars.
Stock market is doing well, once again this gives people confidence and that allows people to loosen the purse strings.
And speaking of media, we no longer hear the news reports of companies cutting 10's of thousands of jobs like we did late 2007 early 2008. So people who are still employed are feeling more confident about keeping their jobs.

All this is not to say that joblessness is still not a problem but overall people are exhibiting a little more optimism then the previous 3 years. People spend money when they are optimistic.

 

[WDWisTheBest]

I should point out that the article I posted from CNN money says that the crowds were up but that the sales were slightly up. So I don't think that we can base it on the crowds. The sales according to their article only rose a slight 0.3% even though crowds were up 2.2%.

I agree that sales figures tell the story. The number of people in the malls does not translate into sales. Sales revenues for the 4th quarter are projected to be either flat or up slightly. The crowds in the malls, especially on Black Friday, are usually a matter of media driving the hype.

 

[eliza61]

I agree that sales figures tell the story. The number of people in the malls does not translate into sales. Sales revenues for the 4th quarter are projected to be either flat or up slightly. The crowds in the malls, especially on Black Friday, are usually a matter of media driving the hype.

Is that the entire 4th quarter (which is the last 3 months) or the christmas holiday season.

On line stores had gang buster sales according to yahoo finance.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/mashable/20...riday_sales_figures_soar_for_online_retailers

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40451449/ns/business-holiday_retail/

so maybe more people are spending money but are doing it on line as opposed to brick and mortar stores.

this figures are between black friday 2009 and black friday 2010. 17% is a pretty good rise.

Retail figures get released tomorrow for the month of November I believe, so we'll get a better indication

 

[MrsPete]

This year was slightly better than last year. Last year was one of the worst in a long, long time. That's the part they are leaving out.

Excellent point. We're not hearing how they compared to years past.

Remember, too, that Black Friday is not traditionally the biggest shopping day of the year -- Black Friday is the day that typically pulls retail stores "out of the red and into the black". Traditionally, stores make the most money (in a single day) on the Saturday before Christmas.

I agree that sales figures tell the story. The number of people in the malls does not translate into sales. Sales revenues for the 4th quarter are projected to be either flat or up slightly. The crowds in the malls, especially on Black Friday, are usually a matter of media driving the hype.

I don't know about that. I don't go to the mall at this time of year UNLESS I specifically plan to buy something. At other times of year, I might go to the mall for a meal, a haircut, or to see a movie -- not now.

 

[Colleen27]

Black friday was a madhouse here in South Jersey.

Also remember the unemployment figures are just a small part of the overall economic picture.
For example, my company and many other companies (even the airline industry) are all reporting profits this year. when companies make money their employees all feel better about giving up the cash.
American auto industry is doing well. I believe GM and chevy both paid back their government loans and are solvent, they are selling cars.
Stock market is doing well, once again this gives people confidence and that allows people to loosen the purse strings.
And speaking of media, we no longer hear the news reports of companies cutting 10's of thousands of jobs like we did late 2007 early 2008. So people who are still employed are feeling more confident about keeping their jobs.

All this is not to say that joblessness is still not a problem but overall people are exhibiting a little more optimism then the previous 3 years. People spend money when they are optimistic.

And on the flip side of that, I think a lot of people are just getting burned out on caution/pessimism. It is so contrary to everything my generation has known up until this point that I think there are plenty of people out there who are still in unstable financial situations who are just tired of the walking on eggshells, saving instead of spending life that they've been living the last few years who are using the holidays as an excuse to return to old habits even when they shouldn't.

I think for the most part, people are just becoming desensitized and adapting to this "new normal" of high unemployment. For better or worse, this is America now and I haven't read anything that predicts any real improvement in the unemployment rate for the foreseeable future. So it is only natural that those who can will go back to living life more or less as usual, and we need them to do that so that the employment picture doesn't continue to get worse.

 

[budbeerlady]

Interesting! We are in MI, its been nasty here for 3 or 4 years now. So things feel like they are improving this year. I can see where its hitting other places later and feels worse this year.

Dh is building new homes this fall, that hasn't happened in 2 years! Seeing a new home in Tyvek is exciting, an improvement here! Seeing 2 on the same street almost made me giddy!

The mall has been packed since before Thanksgiving with many people shopping. Waiting 10 people deep in line at Justice and Old Navy. I can sit on my $ and moan about how bad it is or if I have a little savings emergency cushion I can spend a little and hope it trickles down.

 

[mjbaby]

My graduate school econ professor descibed economics to my class as "nothing more than human emotions explained in money". Simplistic, sure, but also pretty accurate - if "people" believe that the economy is improving or will improve, very likely things will head in exactly that direction. Likewise, the inverse is true, too. The tricky part is remembering that our personal experiences or anecdotal information about our brothers-in-law, neighbors down the road or whatever has no real bearing on this point, it's mass belief that matters. (This approach is reflected in those "anti-recession" billboards that sprang up last year - or was it the year before? The message was "don't panic people" and presented to attempt to prevent social sentiment from pushing things yet further downward.)

So in that sense, reporting on Black Friday sales results isn't propoganda, it's just a reflection of the social position on the state of the economy. Our collective beliefs are an important piece of the puzzle. This is not to say, of course, that we should all go around singing like Susie Sunshine that everything is fine and dandy, but rather that the mass conviction that things are getting better can be the foundation to steps being taken to support that direction, at both the micro and macro levels.

 

[C.Ann]

I - and everyone I know - will be spending considerably less this year.. (Actually, I'm already done - just waiting for packages to arrive..)

I have to wonder about that statement though.. How many of those shopping used cash?

How many used CC's - that will not be paid in full before the interest charges kick in?

From what I saw on tv, I don't think I saw one single person using cash - although I realize that some of the "cards" may well have been debit cards as opposed to CC's..

There is so much emotion wrapped up in Christmas - even people who are way over their heads in debt will add more "because" it's Christmas..

Should that make a difference in how we view the statement that "spending is up"?

 

[eliza61]

I - and everyone I know - will be spending considerably less this year.. (Actually, I'm already done - just waiting for packages to arrive..)

I have to wonder about that statement though.. How many of those shopping used cash?

How many used CC's - that will not be paid in full before the interest charges kick in?

From what I saw on tv, I don't think I saw one single person using cash - although I realize that some of the "cards" may well have been debit cards as opposed to CC's..

There is so much emotion wrapped up in Christmas - even people who are way over their heads in debt will add more "because" it's Christmas..
Should that make a difference in how we view the statement that "spending is up"?

Hi C. Ann, nice to chat with you again.

I have no doubt that many Americans are charging. You hit one of the problems on the head. I really think we here on the budget board are an anomaly (sp). I volunteer at my food bank and Christmas is a seriously emotional issue people getting food assistance are still wondering how to load the tree up with gifts.

Also and I say this all the time, we (consumers) have been programmed for the last 25-30 years to charge. It's not taboo, spending now is not considered a bad thing any more. Teens have charge cards now.

unfortunately from a retail perspective even if it's on credit, spending is up. the store gets their money up front so they really don't care if you have trouble paying for it later.

 

[C.Ann]

Hi C. Ann, nice to chat with you again.

I have no doubt that many Americans are charging. You hit one of the problems on the head. I really think we here on the budget board are an anomaly (sp). I volunteer at my food bank and Christmas is a seriously emotional issue people getting food assistance are still wondering how to load the tree up with gifts.

Also and I say this all the time, we (consumers) have been programmed for the last 25-30 years to charge. It's not taboo, spending now is not considered a bad thing any more.

unfortunately from a retail perspective even if it's on credit, spending is up. the store gets their money up front so they really don't care if you have trouble paying for it later.

Nice to chat with you again too..

In our family (I'm 61 now - ugh!) we were never programmed to "charge".. No cash, no item.. My late father's favorite saying was, "Pay as you go - unless you're going for good.."

We were raised to be very thrifty and "needs" always, always came before "wants".. It wasn't a bad way to live - and certainly made it easier on all of us each time there has been a financial crisis with the economy..

It makes me sad to hear of the folks where you volunteer though.. I'm not quite sure I understand exactly what you said though.. Do you mean that they are getting food assistance - and then spending money they shouldn't (as in charging without the ability to pay it off quickly) in order to buy gifts for their families - or - just trying to get what little cash they have to cover a few gifts?

When I hear about people in such circumstances I wish so badly that I was a millionaire.. I would make it my goal to take care of as many people as I possibly could..

A bit OT, but: Right now I'm very concerned about the homeless people sleeping out in the cold.. Not so much the ones that manage to get inside one of the homeless shelters for the night, but the ones that can't get in because the shelter has reached capacity on any given night.. Last week I heard on the news about that homeless woman who nearly died because there was no room left in the local shelters and I just wanted to cry.. Every single night I pray for those people..

Then just now I had the tv on in the background and only caught "blips", but I guess unemployment is not going to be extended again - as was first thought.. My heart breaks for those who truly need it and are doing everything possible to find jobs..

Lots of things make me very sad right now, but on the flip side of that I realize how truly blessed and fortunate I am - even though I have to keep a very close eye on my finances and how I allocate the money I do have available.. I try not to get "too" comfortable, because as we've all seen (and many of us have experienced - for various reasons), the rug can get pulled out from underneath us in the blink of an eye..

 

[eliza61]

Nice to chat with you again too..

In our family (I'm 61 now - ugh!) we were never programmed to "charge".. No cash, no item.. My late father's favorite saying was, "Pay as you go - unless you're going for good.."

We were raised to be very thrifty and "needs" always, always came before "wants".. It wasn't a bad way to live - and certainly made it easier on all of us each time there has been a financial crisis with the economy..

A bit OT, but: Right now I'm very concerned about the homeless people sleeping out in the cold.. Not so much the ones that manage to get inside one of the homeless shelters for the night, but the ones that can't get in
Lots of things make me very sad right now, but on the flip side of that I realize how truly blessed and fortunate I am - even though I have to keep a very close eye on my finances and how I allocate the money I do have available.. I try not to get "too" comfortable, because as we've all seen (and many of us have experienced - for various reasons), the rug can get pulled out from underneath us in the blink of an eye..

Howdy, contemporary. LOL.

And that makes a big difference. My dad just died (very peacefully in his sleep at 85) and when we got around to sorting through insurance papers and bank statements my siblings and I were laughing at how pop did not have 1 credit card. Not 1. like your dad he just came from a generation that simply believed in paying cash for most things unless it was a car or a house.

Generally the folks whom come at my churchs food bank are pretty nice folks and I don't think they are working the system, I just get amazed at how many of them carry serious guilt at not being able to buy their kids the Ipad or the latest version of WII. A lot of them equate the holidays with "gift giving".


My concern is with the 30's, 40's and even some 50's "kids" who think being in debt is a perfectly ok or standard way to live. We're seeing the effects of that now, when the rug was pulled out and the economy tanked, it has been totally devestating (standard disclaimer: I know this was not everyone, don't flame me dissers I'm talking generalities).


Homelessness is such a hard battle especially the folks you are concerned about. Many times they have so many underlining issues. But you should actually feel good, from what I've seen, you are a concerned individual. On this issue and others you are engaged. That is always the first step to a solution, so you're actually what the spirit of Christmas is about.

That should make you feel good.

 

[C.Ann]

Homelessness is such a hard battle especially the folks you are concerned about. Many times they have so many underlining issues. But you should actually feel good, from what I've seen, you are a concerned individual. On this issue and others you are engaged. That is always the first step to a solution, so you're actually what the spirit of Christmas is about.

That should make you feel good.

Awww.. Thank you.. That's such a nice thing to say..

But I want to do something.. In the past I have made afghans, lapghans, lap quilts, etc., and donated them to various places.. But what to do about these people shivering outside in the cold? I know a city near by and the homeless tend to stay in areas with a very high crime rate.. Not a safe area for me to be in handing out blankets, afghans, coats, hats, gloves, scarves, etc.;at night..

Quite a few years ago, there used to be a van that went around at night to one of the inner city areas where the homeless gathered.. They would give them blankets, a sandwich, and a hot drink.. But I don't know if it's in existence anymore - or how to find out.. I really would love to be able to help these people.. Winter here in the northeast can be so brutally cold and there are only so many shelters - often filled to capacity.. Any ideas how I could get that info? If you have any suggestions, I would love to hear them..
------------------------

OP: Sorry for hijacking your thread.. We can take this other topic to PM's if you would prefer..

 

[budbeerlady]

Awww.. Thank you.. That's such a nice thing to say..

Quite a few years ago, there used to be a van that went around at night to one of the inner city areas where the homeless gathered.. They would give them blankets, a sandwich, and a hot drink.. But I don't know if it's in existence anymore - or how to find out.. I really would love to be able to help these people.. Winter here in the northeast can be so brutally cold and there are only so many shelters - often filled to capacity.. Any ideas how I could get that info? If you have any suggestions, I would love to hear them..
------------------------

OP: Sorry for hijacking your thread.. We can take this other topic to PM's if you would prefer..

In our neck of the woods some people started hanging out behind the local mission to give out PB & J and a blanket. Maybe call a local mission? From word of mouth we found a pastor who drove around and gave out sleeping bags. If we find them cheap at garage sales, etc. we wash them and pass them on to her.

 

[C.Ann]

In our neck of the woods some people started hanging out behind the local mission to give out PB & J and a blanket. Maybe call a local mission? From word of mouth we found a pastor who drove around and gave out sleeping bags. If we find them cheap at garage sales, etc. we wash them and pass them on to her.

Great suggestions! I'm going to make some calls over the next few days because I already have additional afghans and blankets ready to go - also some coats, hats, gloves, scarves, etc..

I'm so excited!! I want so badly to help these people.. Can't even imagine half freezing to death on the ground in an alley somewhere..

 

[Worfiedoodles]

Great suggestions! I'm going to make some calls over the next few days because I already have additional afghans and blankets ready to go - also some coats, hats, gloves, scarves, etc..

I'm so excited!! I want so badly to help these people.. Can't even imagine half freezing to death on the ground in an alley somewhere..

C.Ann -- I don't know where you are, but it is likely the City you refer to has an emergency shelter system (most states and cities have a Continuum of Care, which provides coordinated homeless services) -- they can refer you to providers who would be more than happy to receive your items! I work for the largest provider of homeless services in New England, and we are having our annual "knit-a-thon" soon. The items you have will be very helpful, and much appreciated.

Maria

 

[C.Ann]

C.Ann -- I don't know where you are, but it is likely the City you refer to has an emergency shelter system (most states and cities have a Continuum of Care, which provides coordinated homeless services) -- they can refer you to providers who would be more than happy to receive your items! I work for the largest provider of homeless services in New England, and we are having our annual "knit-a-thon" soon. The items you have will be very helpful, and much appreciated.

Maria

Thanks! So these will go out to the people on the streets - correct? I've done the donating to homeless shelters in a number of areas before (smaller areas where I knew there was a need for more blankets), but I want these items to reach the people that are left out on the streets because the shelters have reached their nightly capacity..

I'm so excited to know that even though I don't have a ton of money - and I'm not a millionaire - there is something I can do for those who are literally "left out in the cold"...

 

[MinnieForMe]

I believe it is up or at least it is here in New Hampshire. Although, I did not shop BF, I was out on Cyber Monday hoping everyone was at home ordering. That was a joke on me! The stores were packed on a Monday morning at 9am. I couldn't believe it!

 

[Worfiedoodles]

Thanks! So these will go out to the people on the streets - correct? I've done the donating to homeless shelters in a number of areas before (smaller areas where I knew there was a need for more blankets), but I want these items to reach the people that are left out on the streets because the shelters have reached their nightly capacity..

I'm so excited to know that even though I don't have a ton of money - and I'm not a millionaire - there is something I can do for those who are literally "left out in the cold"...

You need to ask to be referred to an agency that has a street outreach program -- most major cities (and some smaller ones) do. You can make it clear that your donation is for people who are unwilling or unable to come in to shelter. For instance, we have outreach vans that are on the streets 365 nights a year. By the way, there are shelters that go over capacity and have people sleeping in their lobbies during the winter -- not ideal, but better than freezing. Not every provider can do this, but generally those that are able do.

Maria