Christians suing for the right to be intolerant

[toto2]

That's not diversity training, that is censorship.

ford family

Freedom of speech should not equal being disrespectfull , or being ignorant of the people you are working with. I agree that we dont go to work to be enlightent , but basic politness and basic decensy says that you should try to keep a work environment as nice as possible. Nobody want to go to work and have the feeling that the person in the next cubicle will disparrage your religion , your gender or your race. I guess you would not say stuff at work like " Yeah , Britney spear is sluthy , like every women are". It not nice , it does not promote a good work environment , and it is demeaning to the people you are working with !

 

[Disney Doll]

On this subject , we can only speak in generalization , not in particulars, so I stand on what I said. I will just say that when you are at a Gay Pride event , like here in Montréal where 800 000 people attend , you see every kind of gay people: families , muscle boys , older men and women , every kind of people. But what is always on the front page of the paper is a picture of the drag queen , or the leather thong wearing muscle man , or the very butch lesbian on her motorcycle. So yess , the stereotypes live on like that becaus ethe stereitypes sell more newspaper. I am almost certain that if they would show two "normal" looking gay men kissing , some gay would feel that this does not send the right message...but in fact for that , we do just like heterosexuals do , we kiss our lovers on the mouth ! Is that a bad message to send ?

No...you can kiss whomever you want wherever you, as far as I am concerned.

As far as photographs, I hate to be the one to break the bad news to you, but when someone looks different from the general norm, and they are at an event, they usually get their picture taken.

Also, every group is stereotyped in some way.

My DH is of Irish descent. Every St.Patrick's Day, you know who's on the front of the newspaper? Not my husband, in his nice olive green suit with matching tie, and a small pin on his lapel with a crossed Irish and American flag. No...the person who is on the front of the newspaper is the guy standing there in the 3 foot tall hat covered in shamrocks, with stupid shamrock necklaces hanging around his neck, with his shamrock boxer shorts in the outside of his pants holding a beer.

Think Italian...does The Godfather come to mind?? How about The Sopranos????

Think Hell's Angel...you're not getting an picture of a guy in a suit, are you?????

My point is that stereotyping isn't, limited to gay folks. I am sure we can all come up with stereotyping for every group.

As far as the media...shock value sells newspapers. Shock value gets people to tune into the station, whether it be radio or TV. You may have noticed that there is not a lot of reporting of the nice normal things that happen, anywhere, to any group.

So yes, if you have a really butch-looking lesbian, then she will get her picture taken. But, just like anyone who decides to have their appearance be way outside the norm, don't you think the attention is part of what they want? Think of a really tattooed or pierced person...I'm not talking about one or two, I'm talking about the folks who have tattoos up and down their arms, all over their back, on their neck...everywhere. The same with multiple, multiple piercings. Part of their reason for doing is to make a statement...you make a statement by getting people's attention. You get people's attention by looking unusual.

So don't complain when you accomplish your goal.

 

[ford family]

Sorry I didn't read the part where the employee was told to not say what she was saying. The line I read was telling her to be mindful of her diverse environment.

The boss takes you to one side and says be careful what you say in front of other people, and that's not censorship?

Freedom of speech includes the freedom to offend. If the content of the employee's comments about the Pope was factual then it was up to the offended party to say something, if they existed. It is not the role of the boss to second guess someone's reaction and reproach people on the off chance someone was offended.

ford family

 

[MouseWorshipin]

That's not diversity training, that is censorship.

ford family

Oh, my gosh. I see it as Good Manners. You do not go around insulting people because it is rude and offensive. It creates friction and makes for hard feelings, neither of which belong in a workplace.

I don't think "Diversity" Training helps anyone or changes anyone's mind. Never did, never will. I put "diversity" in quotes because the people who preach it rarely accept opposing (diverse) viewpoints.

IMHO, if someone says something vile at work, they should be warned or fired, depending on how bad it was.

 

[Disney Doll]

a previous poster said this: "before someone asks me if my feelings extend to abortion...the answer is yes. I do not personally believe in it. I would and have counseled people against abortion, and have also "put my money where my mouth is" by concretely helping those same people with childcare, finances etc. when they had the children that they didn't abort. I do not demonstrate at abortion clinics because, "while it's not a choice I would make, it's not a choice that should be denied to other women." It's also not a judgement I would make toward another woman if she made that choice...I don't live in her life."
lets apply this same flawed logic to the abortion debate. "While it's not a choice I would make it's not a choice that shoudl be denied to other women" This is absurd logic. Murder is a choise I wouldnt make, and it is NOT a choice that anyone is legally able to make, so why shouldnt this be applied to unborn chidren. We in a civilized society have concluded that murder is unacceptable, abortion IS murder, it is not a choice for anyone to make. The choice is always available in the endless forms of birth control.

You are blurring the lines between moral/religious beliefs and the law.

The current law in this country is that abortion is legal. Our current laws do not legally consider abortion to be murder. You have every right to disagree with that.

Your current moral/religious belief is that abortion is murder.

You certainly have the right to have this belief, you have the right to state your belief, you have the right to try and change the current legal system so that it more closely mirrors your belief.

But because abortion is currently legal in this country, no one should have the right to deny a woman an abortion.

 

[Disney Doll]

I thought we were talking about tolerance/intolerance.

We were, but I used abortion as an example in one of my posts, and this poster picked up on it.

 

[MouseWorshipin]

The boss takes you to one side and says be careful what you say in front of other people, and that's not censorship?

Freedom of speech includes the freedom to offend. If the content of the employee's comments about the Pope was factual then it was up to the offended party to say something, if they existed. It is not the role of the boss to second guess someone's reaction and reproach people on the off chance someone was offended.

ford family

People can be as offensive as they like, just not at work. You are supposed to be working at work and not going around spouting off about your political, religous, etc... beliefs. And you are also supposed to make an effort to control yourself long enough to get through a day without upsetting your co-workers.

If you can't do that, of course the boss needs to step in and say, "Quit pissing people off and get back to work."

 

[troy mcclure]

Freedom of speech should not equal being disrespectfull , or being ignorant of the people you are working with. I agree that we dont go to work to be enlightent , but basic politness and basic decensy says that you should try to keep a work environment as nice as possible. Nobody want to go to work and have the feeling that the person in the next cubicle will disparrage your religion , your gender or your race. I guess you would not say stuff at work like " Yeah , Britney spear is sluthy , like every women are". It not nice , it does not promote a good work environment , and it is demeaning to the people you are working with !

I agree to a point. However, freedom of speech in America does not guarantee respect, only that the speaker refrain from speech that has been ruled to be unlawful, such as slander. There are no guarantees that someone will not be offended by something they may hear or overhear.

For example, I don't care for profanity, but I hear it daily, sometimes at work, sometimes while at lunch, sometimes on public transportation, sometimes at the movies or on TV. I don't make a big deal of it and most often try to ignore it as background noise.

I agree that within the workplace we need to be careful and respectful of others. It would be ideal if everyone practiced basic civility, especially when speaking to one another. The best I can do is try to model that behavior and hope others learn as well as apologize for the times I slip up and am less than respectful to others.

 

[ford family]

Oh, my gosh. I see it as Good Manners. You do not go around insulting people because it is rude and offensive. It creates friction and makes for hard feelings, neither of which belong in a workplace.

I don't think "Diversity" Training helps anyone or changes anyone's mind. Never did, never will. I put "diversity" in quotes because the people who preach it rarely accept opposing (diverse) viewpoints.

IMHO, if someone says something vile at work, they should be warned or fired, depending on how bad it was.

So, voicing an opinion about something in the news that may be different to someone else's opinion should result in them being fired?
I'm sorry, I just cannot recognise the kind of workplace you describe.

ford family

 

[declansdad]

The boss takes you to one side and says be careful what you say in front of other people, and that's not censorship?


ford family

Be careful what you say is not the same as don't say that. It means please respect the views of others, hence diversity. It doesn't mean agree or accept simply respect.

 

[toto2]

No,,, oyu can kiss whomever you want wherever you, as far as I am concerned.

As far as photographs, I hate to be the one to break the bad news to you, but when someone looks different from the genral norm, and they are at an event, they usually get their picture taken.

Also, every group is stereotyped in some way.

My DH is of Irish descent. Every St.Patrick's Day, you know who's on the front of the newspaper? Not my husband, in his nice olive green suit with matching tie, and a small pin on his lapel with a crossed Irish and American flag. No...the person who is on the front of the newspaper is the guy standing there in the 3 foot tall hat covered in shamrocks, with stupid shamrock necklaces hanging around his neck, with his shamrock boxer shorts in the outside of his pants holding a beer.

Think Italian...does The Godfather come to mind?? How about The Sopranos????

Think Hell's Angel...you're not getting an picture of a guy in a suit, are you?????

My point is that stereotyping isn't, limited to gay folks. I am sure we can all come up with stereotyping for every group.

As far as the media...shock value sells newspapers. Shock value gets people to tune into the station. You may have noticed that there is not a lot of reporting of the nice nromal things that happen, anywhere, to any group.

So yes, if you have a really butch-looking lesbian, then she will get her picture taken. But, just like anyone who decides to have their appearance be way outside the norm, don't you think the attention is part of what they want? Think of a really tattooed or pierced person...I'm not talking about one or two, I'm talking about the folks who have tatoos up and down their arms, all over their back, on their neck...everywhere. The same with multiple, multiple piercings. Part of their reason for doing is to make a statement...you make a statement by getting people's attention. You get people's attention by looking unusual.

So don't complain when you accomplish your goal.

I am not complaning ! I agree that every group as to fight their stereotypes.

It is not because a minority of gay people say that pride is stupid , or that heterosexual people say it is stupid , that the majority thinks so ! 800 000 people are not stupid.

For your exemple of Saint-Patrick day parade ( Montreal as very good one !), what youd you say to me me if I would say that This parad eis stupid because I base my opinion on that picture that ignores all the other "proper" person that were there.

Gay people are just like evry other group: no group is a monolith and obviously , some gay people dont feel the need to celebrate gay pride, but a vast majority of them do. Like not all american celebrate 4th of July , or president day , or valentine ! But i would not bas my opinion on how patriotic americans are in general by asking those who dont celebrate 4th of July !

 

[MouseWorshipin]

So, voicing an opinion about something in the news that may be different to someone else's opinion should result in them being fired?
I'm sorry, I just cannot recognise the kind of workplace you describe.

ford family

I work in a hospital. We never discuss political stuff or religious stuff, unless we're asking patients, but that isn't to debate them on whether or not we agree with their choice of religion. It is to help them through a tough time, if they want that kind of help.

I can't really think of anywhere, outside D.C., political offices, or offices dealing with political-type stuff, where it would be appropriate to be spouting off about your personal political/religious stuff.

 

[toto2]

No...you can kiss whomever you want wherever you, as far as I am concerned.

Oh , and thank you ! If everybody were thinking like you , this would be a better place !

Even here , in very liberal Montréal , just holding hand with my lover on the street , in some erea of the city can get me insulted and beatten. So , yess , it is nice when gay prides comes and that we do own the streets for a few hours and show our loved one pubic display of affection !

 

[goofygirl]

I hate to say it, but it would not surprise me at all if branches of the KKK and neo-Nazis started forming on campuses. They will promote their "white superiority given by God" under the guise of "religious freedom", and cry discrimination when they get challenged.

Really , I do believe this is where we are headed. Its sad. It just shows you that being academic does not make one smarter or more tolerant.


Furthermore, I am sure many of these so called conservative Christian students are the same ones you'll find at spring break or frat parties getting wasted and fornicating with whoever.

 

[ford family]

Be careful what you say is not the same as don't say that. It means please respect the views of others, hence diversity. It doesn't mean agree or accept simply respect.

Given that it is your boss saying it, "be careful what you say" is synonymous with "don't say that".
Also, if you are commenting on a news item, how can you pre-determine how someone will react to your comment?
And why don't "others" respect your views by allowing you to express them or does diversity and respect only work in one direction?

ford family

 

[eclectics]

The boss takes you to one side and says be careful what you say in front of other people, and that's not censorship?

Freedom of speech includes the freedom to offend. If the content of the employee's comments about the Pope was factual then it was up to the offended party to say something, if they existed. It is not the role of the boss to second guess someone's reaction and reproach people on the off chance someone was offended.

ford family

If the boss concludes that what is being said will lead to a argument and a disruption of work, I think he has every right to tell the employee to knock it off. The workplace is for work and anything that disrupts the work being done hurts the company and should not be tolerated. If saying something offensive disrupts the workplace it is the role of the boss to put a stop to it. If you want to call it censorship, so be it.

 

[ead79]

Furthermore, I am sure many of these so called conservative Christian students are the same ones you'll find at spring break or frat parties getting wasted and fornicating with whoever.

What gives you that impression? I certainly don’t approve of what these specific students are doing, but I know many conservative Christians who don’t drink excessively or have sex outside of marriage. Just because they have conservative views doesn’t automatically make them gigantic hypocrites.

 

[cardaway]

Furthermore, I am sure many of these so called conservative Christian students are the same ones you'll find at spring break or frat parties getting wasted and fornicating with whoever.

True.

 

[MouseWorshipin]

Furthermore, I am sure many of these so called conservative Christian students are the same ones you'll find at spring break or frat parties getting wasted and fornicating with whoever.

Wouldn't know...never attended or did those kinds of things.

 

[ead79]

True.

Not to harp on the topic, but why do you assume that’s true. I am a conservative Christian, and I did not have sex outside of marriage or drink. I am not the only person like that. I think you're making a big assumption.