Christians suing for the right to be intolerant

[WIcruizer]

I let this one pass , I dont know why , so I answer it now: homosexual people started to use the word gay exactly because they wanted to take it away from the sex part. Obviously , we are not only defined by who we sleep with ! And I hope that people dont define me by my sex life. But being gay is more than just your sex life: when you are gay , you fall in love with somebody who is the same sex as you are , when you are gay , you are part of a minority that in some countries you can get killed ( two gay teenagers were killed in Iran last year). It is really my hope that some day , being gay is a non-issue , but it is not. Just the fact that we are having this discussion is proof. I will had that , in my experience , most gay people who think that Gay pride is stupid are the one who can pass as straight because they are not effeminate in anyway. The dont feel the discrimination that those who cant pass as straight. And as long as those invisible gays stay invisible , all the strereotypes will continue to exist. Why was Brokeback so scandalous for some ? Because it broke this stereotype. It was there for evryone to see : two gays who dont know Barbara streisand , who dont have that feminine voice who are not hairdresser !

Actually that's not true. With a couple of gay/lez people that think it's stupid, yes they could "pass for straight." But there are two other guys I know who fit the gay stereotype to the nth degree, and they feel the same way.

Here's what they have said. "We are all trying so hard to show everyone we are just like you. Every time we have events, parades, gay pride week, etc. it forces everyone to focus on our DIFFERENCES." I agree with that. I know these people either through work, socially, or both. I knew they were gay, but we didn't talk about it because it didn't matter to me. It just seems odd to focus on it. They are people, individuals- not part of a group.

 

[toto2]

Well they don't have a Heterosexual pride month.



And for clarification--well--not sure if I can clarify but for example they have Black History Month--that is okay--shows wonderful figures in our history who did great things. My understanding of Gay Pride Month--they don't do so much of that. I don't know. I just don't see teh workplace as an appropriate venue of that.


.

And just to add here that , usually , Gay pride week ( Wow , I would love a whole month !) is not governement sanctionned. Every city has it at different week through out the year. Here in Montréal , it is at the beguining of august , But in the USA , it is usually around the end of June to commemorate the Stonewall riots. Stonewall was a bar in Greenwich villge that cattered to gay people. It was often raided by police and one day , some of the bar custumers ( mostly tranvestites and the more effeminates one) rebelled against the police and fought back. This event is considered to be the beguining of the gay rights movements.

Gay pride weeks are usually organised by community organisation. There no , (at least here in montréal) workplace gay awareness events of any kind !

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

And just to add here that , usually , Gay pride week ( Wow , I would love a whole month !) is not governement sanctionned. Every city has it at different week through out the year. Here in Montréal , it is at the beguining of august , But in the USA , it is usually around the end of June to commemorate the Stonewall riots. Stonewall was a bar in Greenwich villge that cattered to gay people. It was often raided by police and one day , some of the bar custumers ( mostly tranvestites and the more effeminates one) rebelled against the police and fought back. This event is considered to be the beguining of the gay rights movements.

Gay pride weeks are usually organised by community organisation. There no , (at least here in montréal) workplace gay awareness events of any kind !

Again--I had responded to someone who may or may not haev used a generalization (or simply made it up) when they stated that someone was fired from teh work place for not recognizing gay pride month or something.

I'm not aware of any gay pride awareness events in the work place around here either. But should some workplace decide to do that I just don't think that would be appropriate.

 

[toto2]

Actually that's not true. With a couple of gay/lez people that think it's stupid, yes they could "pass for straight." But there are two other guys I know who fit the gay stereotype to the nth degree, and they feel the same way.

Here's what they have said. "We are all trying so hard to show everyone we are just like you. Every time we have events, parades, gay pride week, etc. it forces everyone to focus on our DIFFERENCES." I agree with that. I know these people either through work, socially, or both. I knew they were gay, but we didn't talk about it because it didn't matter to me. It just seems odd to focus on it. They are people, individuals- not part of a group.

On this subject , we can only speak in generalization , not in particulars, so I stand on what I said. I will just say that when you are at a Gay Pride event , like here in Montréal where 800 000 people attend , you see every kind of gay people: families , muscle boys , older men and women , every kind of people. But what is always on the front page of the paper is a picture of the drag queen , or the leather thong wearing muscle man , or the very butch lesbian on her motorcycle. So yess , the stereotypes live on like that becaus ethe stereitypes sell more newspaper. I am almost certain that if they would show two "normal" looking gay men kissing , some gay would feel that this does not send the right message...but in fact for that , we do just like heterosexuals do , we kiss our lovers on the mouth ! Is that a bad message to send ?

 

[cardaway]

I'm not aware of any gay pride awareness events in the work place around here either. But should some workplace decide to do that I just don't think that would be appropriate.

They have them at this company, usually around the same time as the local pride parade in downtown Seattle.

They also have many other similar things around other diversity topics. Are all those wrong or just the gay related ones?

 

[Holly]

I'm not aware of any gay pride awareness events in the work place around here either. But should some workplace decide to do that I just don't think that would be appropriate.

Why not?

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Sex in the workplace is not a topic I support regardless of whom you are attracted to.

I support tolerance training or whatever that is called b/c the workplace needs that.

But a company sponsored "pride" event for whom you are attracted to just isnt' appropriate IMHO.

The company I worked for did government contracts so we had the appropriate diversity training. But an event to celebrate sexuality--how can that be appropriate for the workplace?


We had a transgender individual and they handled her transformation beautifully to preserve her privacy while at the same time making aware to the employees that he will now be a she. (all team photos where she was a he were removed--and during the transformation they had a bathroom converted to unisex and then eventually she used the girls bathroom. I think this was also for her comfort level but I am obviously not privy to any HR discussions on the matter).


(and I may have used the wrong term--but there was a sex change and he is now a she. My apologies if I did use the wrong term).

 

[cardaway]

But a company sponsored "pride" event for whom you are attracted to just isnt' appropriate IMHO.

If you put it only like that, then I can see where that is coming from. But that's only a part of it. It would make no sense to have events on other diversity topics and not recognize one of the top issues facing people in the work place. And it's a very serious issue. Pretty hard for people to be with people every work day and not have this piece of divirsity not come up, turning into a problem where the gay person can't just do their job in peace.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

If you put it only like that, then I can see where that is coming from. But that's only a part of it. It would make no sense to have have events on other diversity topics and not recognize one of the top issues facing people in the work place. And it's a very serious issue. Pretty hard for people to be with people every work day and not have this piece of divirsity not come up, turning into a problem where the gay person can't just do their job in peace.

That is what I meant. I am picturing Gay Days at Disney as my POV.

Diversity training so that the person can do their job in peace--by all means. Absolutely. They should not suffer from ignorance in the workplace.

 

[Holly]

Sex in the workplace is not a topic I support regardless of whom you are attracted to.

I support tolerance training or whatever that is called b/c the workplace needs that.

But a company sponsored "pride" event for whom you are attracted to just isnt' appropriate IMHO.

The company I worked for did government contracts so we had the appropriate diversity training. But an event to celebrate sexuality--how can that be appropriate for the workplace?


We had a transgender individual and they handled her transformation beautifully to preserve her privacy while at the same time making aware to the employees that he will now be a she. (all team photos where she was a he were removed--and during the transformation they had a bathroom converted to unisex and then eventually she used the girls bathroom. I think this was also for her comfort level but I am obviously not privy to any HR discussions on the matter).


(and I may have used the wrong term--but there was a sex change and he is now a she. My apologies if I did use the wrong term).

That is the type of opinion that comes when people only equate homosexuality with a mere sexual act.

It's not. It's a way of life and loving that should be embraced rather than discriminated against. Gays have been told that their way of life is wrong for so many years, if they want a week to celebrate it, so be it.

So, you are saying that the workplace should accomodate religious holidays, even if all of the employees are not religious, but not something like Gay Pride day or week?

 

[LukenDC]

I am a human resources manager and I define corporate diversity as fostering a work environment where EVERYONE has the opportunity to achieve their full potential. White males, Christians, and heterosexuals are as much a part of diversity as racial minorities, women, religious minorities, and homosexuals. As for diversity training, it is done not to change minds, but to teach respectful behavior in the workplace. Diversity training is an ongoing process and can be done in a classroom format, small group discussions, or one-on-one counseling.

For example, when Cardinal Ratzinger became Pope, I heard some comments from one of my employees disparaging his traditional views on gender, sex and sexuality. I pulled her aside and reminded her that we have Catholic employees who may be uncomfortable hearing criticism of the Pope. I respected her right to her opinions, but said that she must be mindful of working in a diverse environment.

 

[cardaway]

That is what I meant. I am picturing Gay Days at Disney as my POV.

Well them I'm lost because I have no idea how that relates to the work place. Gays Days is just like every other group meeting at Disney. It's just better organized, and therefore, better attended.

One could say a persons faith has no place in a work environment. Not work related. No need for religion diversity then right? Likewise Night of Joy must not have a place in Disney?

Personally I don't believe any of that. They all have a place as long as anything else has its place.

And personally I think diversity training is a joke. We all know who the bigots are at work and we see how these things do no good. The folks we know just walk out making fun of the whole deal and things never change until they really go over the edge and get fired.

 

[Amrita]

a previous poster said this: "before someone asks me if my feelings extend to abortion...the answer is yes. I do not personally believe in it. I would and have counseled people against abortion, and have also "put my money where my mouth is" by concretely helping those same people with childcare, finances etc. when they had the children that they didn't abort. I do not demonstrate at abortion clinics because, "while it's not a choice I would make, it's not a choice that should be denied to other women." It's also not a judgement I would make toward another woman if she made that choice...I don't live in her life."
lets apply this same flawed logic to the abortion debate. "While it's not a choice I would make it's not a choice that shoudl be denied to other women" This is absurd logic. Murder is a choise I wouldnt make, and it is NOT a choice that anyone is legally able to make, so why shouldnt this be applied to unborn chidren. We in a civilized society have concluded that murder is unacceptable, abortion IS murder, it is not a choice for anyone to make. The choice is always available in the endless forms of birth control.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Well them I'm lost because I have no idea how that relates to the work place. Gays Days is just like every other group meeting at Disney. It's just better organized, and therefore, better attended.

That is the type of opinion that comes when people only equate homosexuality with a mere sexual act.

It's not. It's a way of life and loving that should be embraced rather than discriminated against. Gays have been told that their way of life is wrong for so many years, if they want a week to celebrate it, so be it.

I think it is inappropriate in the workplace period.

Gay Days at Disney is a celebratory meeting at the happiest place on earth. I.e fun and festive and all that. I'm not for puting on a festival at work for that purpose and celebrating that way of life.

Nowhere did I mention that you should be discriminated against at work.

I do not go to work to celebrate LOVE and relationships. I go to make a living. I appreciate diversity--but a company sponsored event on celebrating relationships just doens't make sense.

Protecting your interests and making a safe and comfortable work environment is.


I am not articulating myself well today so I will just leave it at that. Evidently I am setting off the homophobe detector and that is not my intent.

I'll have to ask my brother his thoughts if he would feel comfortable celebrating Gay pride week, month or whatever in his workplace--a public school. I think he would be qualified to have an opinion on the matter.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

a previous poster said this: "before someone asks me if my feelings extend to abortion...the answer is yes. I do not personally believe in it. I would and have counseled people against abortion, and have also "put my money where my mouth is" by concretely helping those same people with childcare, finances etc. when they had the children that they didn't abort. I do not demonstrate at abortion clinics because, "while it's not a choice I would make, it's not a choice that should be denied to other women." It's also not a judgement I would make toward another woman if she made that choice...I don't live in her life."
lets apply this same flawed logic to the abortion debate. "While it's not a choice I would make it's not a choice that shoudl be denied to other women" This is absurd logic. Murder is a choise I wouldnt make, and it is NOT a choice that anyone is legally able to make, so why shouldnt this be applied to unborn chidren. We in a civilized society have concluded that murder is unacceptable, abortion IS murder, it is not a choice for anyone to make. The choice is always available in the endless forms of birth control.

I thought we were talking about tolerance/intolerance.

 

[Holly]

I am not articulating myself well today so I will just leave it at that. Evidently I am setting off the homophobe detector and that is not my intent.

Actually, once I went back, I realized that I may have misread your post the first time. You elaborated well in your second one and I think I caught your meaning. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Sylvester McBean]

I do not go to work to celebrate LOVE and relationships. I go to make a living. I appreciate diversity--but a company sponsored event on celebrating relationships just doens't make sense.

I agree with this. but if they want to make it a federal holiday, I'm cool with that as well, I need more paid days off and I hate to work.

 

[toto2]

I dont think any work place that would have gay awarness day would throw a party. I guess they dont during Black histury month or international women day. Come to think of it , March 8th , international women day is not a day to celebrate there sexuality. That would be reducing women to only there reproductive role in society. It is a day that does celebrate women acheivement , talks about problems women with women rights in society and around the world. I guess this is what gay awarness day would do in a workplace environment. When you go to the gaypride parade , what you see is , yess floats with people dancing and having fun , but the vast majority of groups walking are : sames sex family assosiations , cultural groups from different nations ( in montreal we have Iranians , chinese , vietnamese , south americans , italians etc.) and it takes real courage to expose ( no pun intended) your self as gay if you are Iranian.( It would be just like and american screaming "bring them on" in a Bagdad market). But obviously , if you just look at the picture of the drag queen on the front page of the paper , you would not know that !

 

[ford family]

I am a human resources manager and I define corporate diversity as fostering a work environment where EVERYONE has the opportunity to achieve their full potential. White males, Christians, and heterosexuals are as much a part of diversity as racial minorities, women, religious minorities, and homosexuals. As for diversity training, it is done not to change minds, but to teach respectful behavior in the workplace. Diversity training is an ongoing process and can be done in a classroom format, small group discussions, or one-on-one counseling.

For example, when Cardinal Ratzinger became Pope, I heard some comments from one of my employees disparaging his traditional views on gender, sex and sexuality. I pulled her aside and reminded her that we have Catholic employees who may be uncomfortable hearing criticism of the Pope. I respected her right to her opinions, but said that she must be mindful of working in a diverse environment.

That's not diversity training, that is censorship.

ford family

 

[declansdad]

That's not diversity training, that is censorship.

ford family

Sorry I didn't read the part where the employee was told to not say what she was saying. The line I read was telling her to be mindful of her diverse environment.