Chapek: "Maybe by this fall-Limited Operations of Our (Disney) Cruise Ships"

[brentm77]

Definitely not appointing myself as a mod. But I don't think continuing a debate about whether or not Disney leaving sailings available for purchase legally constitutes fraud is "on topic." My opinion and comment to 'please let it go' are just as "...civil, and perfectly ok to be discussing here" as yours.

That's not what you said. You insulted me by saying the discussion was about looking like one of us had a bigger organ size. You assumed bad intent, when it was actually just a topic that interested me, that was related to the thread. It would have been perfectly ok to ask if we could move the legal debate to a different thread.

 

[ofcabbagesandkings]

I think the Fall estimate is likely due to the fact that they know that even once they get the green light from the CDC, they will still have to bring back and possibly retrain staff and performers, design and implement new cleaning procedures and social distancing guidelines, and perform test sailings. So even if by June new Covid case numbers have plummeted and the CDC says OK, all of those logistics will take months, AND they'll have to find ports that will accept American tourists. My guess is, they'll start with Fall 3/4 night cruises at half capacity to Castaway Cay and possibly Nassau on the Dream, since on bigger ships it will be easier to socially distance guests and crew. If those are a success and don't lead to outbreaks onboard, maybe they'll increase capacity on the Dream and/or bring other ships back online. But of course I'm just speculating.

 

[DCSWO]

Until DCL cancels it, my Sept 4 Norway cruise is still the 3rd cruise scheduled for the Magic, but based on this info, I officially gave up hope today. I'll rebook for next years' sailing to Norway. As a "consolation" trip, I shifted our flights west to Hawaii, booked a room at Aluani and shifted my mindset to the tropics. Aloha!

 

[Doofenshmirtz513]

I think the Fall estimate is likely due to the fact that they know that even once they get the green light from the CDC, they will still have to bring back and possibly retrain staff and performers, design and implement new cleaning procedures and social distancing guidelines, and perform test sailings. So even if by June new Covid case numbers have plummeted and the CDC says OK, all of those logistics will take months, AND they'll have to find ports that will accept American tourists. My guess is, they'll start with Fall 3/4 night cruises at half capacity to Castaway Cay and possibly Nassau on the Dream, since on bigger ships it will be easier to socially distance guests and crew. If those are a success and don't lead to outbreaks onboard, maybe they'll increase capacity on the Dream and/or bring other ships back online. But of course I'm just speculating.

I think staff is going to be a major sticking point here. At what point will Disney be able to assemble the appropriate staff from around the world, likely ensure that they have all been vaccinated, and have those people travel to the proper location for training then to a ship? They have to protect the staff cohort as well as the passenger cohort.

I also think that Disney will lag behind the other cruise lines because the risk of a PR hit from running a "superspreader cruise" is much greater than the benefit of starting cruises a little earlier since the cruise revenue is less significant to Disney's bottom line than it is for other cruise operators.

As someone with concierge money sitting in an August cruise, I would like Disney to start cancelling cruises earlier so I can have my funds back and adjust plans accordingly.

 

[BadPinkTink]

Until DCL cancels it, my Sept 4 Norway cruise is still the 3rd cruise scheduled for the Magic, but based on this info, I officially gave up hope today. I'll rebook for next years' sailing to Norway. As a "consolation" trip, I shifted our flights west to Hawaii, booked a room at Aluani and shifted my mindset to the tropics. Aloha!

I'm on this cruise too and just waiting for the next 2022 cruise release. I'm also waiting to see what the closed loop UK only cruises will be like, depending on travel restrictions I might be able to go on one in September or October.

 

[DCSWO]

I think staff is going to be a major sticking point here. At what point will Disney be able to assemble the appropriate staff from around the world, likely ensure that they have all been vaccinated, and have those people travel to the proper location for training then to a ship? They have to protect the staff cohort as well as the passenger cohort.

I also think that Disney will lag behind the other cruise lines because the risk of a PR hit from running a "superspreader cruise" is much greater than the benefit of starting cruises a little earlier since the cruise revenue is less significant to Disney's bottom line than it is for other cruise operators.

As someone with concierge money sitting in an August cruise, I would like Disney to start cancelling cruises earlier so I can have my funds back and adjust plans accordingly.

Here here!

 

[AquaDame]

I'd personally rather the "Is it FRAUD????" debate move to its own thread so this can be left to discuss Chapek's comments as they apply to restarts, but I'm not a mod, so I can just put those posters who want to argue legal theories on ignore. Coming back to the restart issue, I wonder if a lot of the hesitancy is due to the current CDC requirements, which I'm personally hoping will be modified to reflect new guidance as we move forward with vaccination and get more evidence that a vaccinated population can safely interact. That might not happen by summer, but it seems to follow, logically. One issue is obviously younger people, who can't get the vaccine. We have a July 2 cruise booked. I don't really expect it to sail, but that's okay, we'll just take the FCC and move it. On the other hand, I would feel comfortable sailing on a ship where vaccination was required for 16 and above. I would imagine for that reason, they would still need to reduce capacity and require masks, social distancing, etc. The last thing DCL wants is an outbreak or a bunch of sick kids, so I'm sure they will be extra cautious. They can afford to wait it out, unlike some other companies who are probably a bit more eager to get started.

Chapek clearly has access to better info than I do. I'll just hope that it's a case of under-promise, over-deliver! But, if not, we look forward to 2022. Safety first.

Hi, mod here!

I went back and read the thread start to finish and a couple words aside that thankfully were glazed over the debate remained civil and I do think it is topical. While OP just posted Chapek's comment, the question of WHY they are still selling summer cruises then is on topic, in my opinion. "If fall then why summer" isn't really a stretch. If it kept going down the rabbit hole of what constitutes fraud and/or history of US law or something then yeah, I'd say we need a new thread (in the community forum). It did seem to stay on the topic of THIS particular issue though, and the participants are dropping it, so I don't think anything further needs to happen.

I also think his answer was designed to not give TOO much hope to a summer start, even if they are working like crazy on the backend trying to make it happen anyway. They also don't want to have their ships overfilled and then have to deal with that problem also I imagine (if they haven't already taken some % of cabins offline or done something else to mitigate that problem).

Definitely not appointing myself as a mod. But I don't think continuing a debate about whether or not Disney leaving sailings available for purchase legally constitutes fraud is "on topic." My opinion and comment to 'please let it go' are just as "...civil, and perfectly ok to be discussing here" as yours.

Would it feel more on topic if we replaced 'legal' with fair? Or disingenuous? Or at least confusing as heck if he "knows" fall is the safe bet..? I'm certainly not infallible, its just my opinion and maybe Camcolt will chime in she disagrees. ^^; This reaction and discussion is about what I would expect from his statement though - without any official word the answer is 'they will start sailing again in June' and clearly that was incorrect. I called last night to cancel our November cruise and the CM laughed and said it was news to them as well - officially the ships are sailing in June as far as they are aware (or August in the case of the Magic).

Until DCL cancels it, my Sept 4 Norway cruise is still the 3rd cruise scheduled for the Magic, but based on this info, I officially gave up hope today. I'll rebook for next years' sailing to Norway. As a "consolation" trip, I shifted our flights west to Hawaii, booked a room at Aluani and shifted my mindset to the tropics. Aloha!

Haha, we did exactly the same! Cancelled our November cruise, booked Aulani. Hopefully it was the right choice. We haven't been since our combo trip with Maui for our wedding exactly ten years ago, so I am a wee bit excited!

 

[tvguy]

Nobody is talking about unforeseeable circumstances here - we are talking about possible misrepresentations based on what Disney already knows.

It's not a defense to fraud to say, "but we gave them there money back and a little extra!" That is an issue of damages. It is a good reason we probably won't see any lawsuits, but it isn't a basis for the judge to "throw out" a case. Furthermore, it doesn't mean some customers won't have actual damages if they incur other nonrefundable expenses or the like. Not to mention punitive damages, which are likely in a fraud case.

You want to raise the defense that the customer should have known the cruises being sold this summer wouldn't sail. Your intuition isn't wrong - what is wrong is where it would come into play in a trial. One element to fraud is that the plaintiff had to have reasonably relied on the misrepresentation. You are making the argument that it wasn't reasonable for people booking cruises right now to rely on Disney's implied representation that they might actually sail. The problem is that even if you are right, that is usually an issue of fact (a legal term of art, meaning a fact finder - usually a jury - gets to decide). A judge can't throw out a case based on an issue of fact - those are what trials are actually for.

And, I don' think that issue is as clean cut as you say. What about a customer who doesn't follow the cruise industry religiously and simply goes up to Disney's website to book? I think it is perfectly reasonable for someone in that situation to assume that if Disney is selling the cruise, Disney will sail if possible and it hasn't already decided it won't or can't. Heck, there are informed customers on Disboards who said they were surprised by the comments because they thought Disney might sail sooner.

And keep in mind, the actual issue here isn't whether sailing is likely, it is whether Disney already knows it won't happen, but is selling cruises anyway. When I see Chapek's comments in full context, as posted by @Intr3pid, I think Disney has more wiggle room in the comments than the short snippets posted above indicated. But, I still think Disney left itself vulnerable to a fraud claim, depending on what is happening behind the scenes, which is something a plaintiff could learn in discovery. I am not even saying it is a good case, or that someone should file it (I would never file a case like this one). But, Disney would be wise to release a clarification if their intent is actually to sail this summer if reasonably possible. Either that, or yank the cruises from the website - which is the right thing to do if they know they aren't sailing already.

There may even be some state consumer protection law violations in this situation if Disney really is still selling a product it has no intention of providing if reasonably possible.

Royal Caribbean made it clear that the reason it keeps canceling three months out, is because it keeps aiming to sail in 90 days, which is the timeframe it needs to be up and running after CDC clearance. So we know it has the intent to sail just as soon as it can, which is apparently not the case with Disney.

If you don't mind, can we move on from the technical legal claims? Fraud doesn't always rise to the level of a legal claim for it to be wrong, and a case is very unlikely here. Let's focus on what really matters - do you think it is ethically right for a company to sell a product it knows it has no intention of delivering?

LOL. Yup, you are clearly a lawyer.

 

[Tay N Evie's Mom]

I’m booked on the 8 night cruise in October 2021 that as of right now can’t sail as scheduled per the CDC. I wish DCL would tell us what they’re doing with that cruise so we can make alternative plans. I’m afraid DCL is going to release the Summer 2022 schedule and we’ll still be waiting on an answer for October and miss out on 1st day pricing (we’re Platinum). I already have $12,000 invested in that cruise for 2 cabins, so I don’t want to hand over more money to DCL at this point.

 

[ngl]

I’m booked on the 8 night cruise in October 2021 that as of right now can’t sail as scheduled per the CDC. I wish DCL would tell us what they’re doing with that cruise so we can make alternative plans. I’m afraid DCL is going to release the Summer 2022 schedule and we’ll still be waiting on an answer for October and miss out on 1st day pricing (we’re Platinum). I already have $12,000 invested in that cruise for 2 cabins, so I don’t want to hand over more money to DCL at this point.

We have an Oct 2021 cruise booked as well with family and friends (milestone bday for me). I am thinking it won't go. Chapek's comment was a equivocal "maybe" in the fall. Not exactly sure what fall means but as others have pointed out lots of logistics to consider to make that happen. Also, I am not sure I want to be one of the first back to sailing simply because I would like to get feedback first - what things were closed, what things changed, etc. We have not canceled anything yet but will see when the 2022 schedule comes out what our thoughts are.

 

[MomOTwins]

Full disclosure, I am a lawyer and I don't think it is fraud. You have consider the totality of all publicly available information when assessing whether it is fraud, and Chapek was open about the fact that a lot is uncertain now, and the company does not know when it will be even be possible to resume cruising. Not to mention, the contract pretty much makes clear that Disney can cancel cruises any time. And if the summer cruises don't sail, they'll be refunded, so that raises to my mind whether there are non-trivial damages here.

Just like I don't think it would be fraud for DCL to continue to sell last-minute cruises when the forecast calls for a hurricane to come through florida on the embarkation date. Yes the cruise very likely will be cancelled, and Disney has probably had some internal discussions concluding the odds are very low that cruise will sail. That risk is equally known to the guests and DCL, and if they book a with the knowledge it may happen, and with a contract giving DCL the right to cancel.

I know for people with summer cruises, this is a gut punch, since I expect we all hoped cruising would be back in 2021. But realistically, anyone paying attention could draw the exact same conclusion as Chapek did on the likelihood of summer cruises sailing.

What interests me most about the announcement is the concept of limited cruises returning in the fall. I wonder if it would be all ships running a reduced schedule or maybe just one or two ships (dream seems likely, given the shorter cruises).

 

[_auroraborealis_]

What interests me most about the announcement is the concept of limited cruises returning in the fall. I wonder if it would be all ships running a reduced schedule or maybe just one or two ships (dream seems likely, given the shorter cruises).

I'd expect part of it to be that the Wonder never goes west, which eliminates the Riviera sailings. Magic's TA can't sail with passengers under existing guidance, and the Canada sailings after the TA are not permitted by current Canadian rule. So "limited" may also be recognition of those two realities, which puts them at two ships with scheduled cruises to sail - 7 night Fantasy, and the 3/4 Dreams.

I doubt DCL tries to do some last minute options on Magic or Wonder. Beyond the staffing, the logistics of arranging ports even right now for fall is a nightmare when it's NOT a pandemic. Port berths don't schedule on a dime at that scale of ship. Add in needing to get people to book them - cruises from the NE or San Diego cannot be assumed to reschedule out of Miami or PC and have the same booked folks raring to go - and it just seems unwieldy and unlikely.

 

[ofcabbagesandkings]

I'd expect part of it to be that the Wonder never goes west, which eliminates the Riviera sailings. Magic's TA can't sail with passengers under existing guidance, and the Canada sailings after the TA are not permitted by current Canadian rule. So "limited" may also be recognition of those two realities, which puts them at two ships with scheduled cruises to sail - 7 night Fantasy, and the 3/4 Dreams.

I doubt DCL tries to do some last minute options on Magic or Wonder. Beyond the staffing, the logistics of arranging ports even right now for fall is a nightmare when it's NOT a pandemic. Port berths don't schedule on a dime at that scale of ship. Add in needing to get people to book them - cruises from the NE or San Diego cannot be assumed to reschedule out of Miami or PC and have the same booked folks raring to go - and it just seems unwieldy and unlikely.

I agree wholeheartedly with this assessment. The 7 night Fantasy cruises would still fall under current CDC restrictions for cruise lengths, so if DCL can get the ports to accept foreign tourists, then it might be possible. Also the Fantasy is a big ship which will help with socially distancing guests/crew, like the Dream.

 

[brentm77]

Full disclosure, I am a lawyer and I don't think it is fraud. You have consider the totality of all publicly available information when assessing whether it is fraud, and Chapek was open about the fact that a lot is uncertain now, and the company does not know when it will be even be possible to resume cruising. Not to mention, the contract pretty much makes clear that Disney can cancel cruises any time. And if the summer cruises don't sail, they'll be refunded, so that raises to my mind whether there are non-trivial damages here.

Just like I don't think it would be fraud for DCL to continue to sell last-minute cruises when the forecast calls for a hurricane to come through florida on the embarkation date. Yes the cruise very likely will be cancelled, and Disney has probably had some internal discussions concluding the odds are very low that cruise will sail. That risk is equally known to the guests and DCL, and if they book a with the knowledge it may happen, and with a contract giving DCL the right to cancel.

I know for people with summer cruises, this is a gut punch, since I expect we all hoped cruising would be back in 2021. But realistically, anyone paying attention could draw the exact same conclusion as Chapek did on the likelihood of summer cruises sailing.

What interests me most about the announcement is the concept of limited cruises returning in the fall. I wonder if it would be all ships running a reduced schedule or maybe just one or two ships (dream seems likely, given the shorter cruises).

I wish I could reply in full, because I think you are sidestepping the actual legal argument. Using the contract as a defense is problematic for a fraud claim too. I agree that damages are the biggest issue (but not necessarily fatal). Like I said, it's not a case I would take, but legal implications aside, there is an ethical problem with taking people's money if you already know you can't or won't deliver the product.

Since I have been told this debate isn't preferred here, I won't continue it. We will have to agree to disagree unless you want to continue it in DM. It isn't the first time two lawyers have disagreed.

 

[soniam]

I’m booked on the 8 night cruise in October 2021 that as of right now can’t sail as scheduled per the CDC. I wish DCL would tell us what they’re doing with that cruise so we can make alternative plans. I’m afraid DCL is going to release the Summer 2022 schedule and we’ll still be waiting on an answer for October and miss out on 1st day pricing (we’re Platinum). I already have $12,000 invested in that cruise for 2 cabins, so I don’t want to hand over more money to DCL at this point.

When they cancelled my 9 night Southern Caribbean for July 2021, they split it into 6 and 3 night cruises. They offered a discount, 10% I think, if you booked one or both. I can't remember if they released them early to the folks who were on the 9 night or released to everyone at once. I suspect they would do something similar for the 8 night.

 

[anjuan]

When they cancelled my 9 night Southern Caribbean for July 2021, they split it into 6 and 3 night cruises. They offered a discount, 10% I think, if you booked one or both. I can't remember if they released them early to the folks who were on the 9 night or released to everyone at once. I suspect they would do something similar for the 8 night.

I was on that cruise as well. Yes, they offered a 10% discount on both but they did release the two cruises to the whole public at once.

 

[tvguy]

Definitely not appointing myself as a mod. But I don't think continuing a debate about whether or not Disney leaving sailings available for purchase legally constitutes fraud is "on topic."

Yes, there are some rules on the DIS that are unique in the discussion board world. It is their board, and they can make whatever rules they want. As someone who has to moderate other boards, and sat through WAY too many training sessions on successful boards, I can say the reason the response chain is called a "thread" is because they weave here and there and everywhere from the OP. I am not currently considering booking a Disney cruise. but if I was, I would consider EVERY aspect of the process, including whether I could get a refund, if I would get a credit for a future cruise (125% of what you paid in Disney's case currently) and if Disney was misrepresenting something through fraud. So with respect, IMHO, fraud, which I do not think DCL is committing, is very much on topic before I put money down

 

[18sprint]

My wife and I have a 7 night western cruise scheduled the 2nd week of Oct 2021. We have also have 2 days before the cruise and 6 nights after the cruise scheduled at OKW resort. After the announcement, it got me thinking. We could pay off the cruise now, and if it's canceled, hope for the 125% credit. Hopefully the timing of any cancelation would give us time to re-evaluate our OKW stay. The other issue could be that sailing would start with so many restrictions that a person would not want to waste thousands of dollars on, reduced, if any entertainment, drastically reduced dining selections, reservations needed just to sit around a pool..ect... Personally we don't care about stopping anywhere but Castaway Cay so if port days are canceled, that's fine. We're just not sure what to do at this point.

 

[kathi]

I'm very sad about the statement at the shareholder event. I agree he is well informed and there is a lot of maybe and hopefully coming off sailing in the fall (which starts at the end of September). We have had 5 cruises cancelled since our 9-night southern in June 2020 and our next is September 25th (for our 21st anniversary). We are completely willing to sail with covid restrictions and will be on that ship if it sails (even if it's going around in circles). I know many fellow cruisers feel the same. Time will tell....all we can do is keep kicking the can to a future date as cancellations come in (or get money back, of course).

 

[auntlynne]

That's not what you said. You insulted me by saying the discussion was about looking like one of us had a bigger organ size. You assumed bad intent, when it was actually just a topic that interested me, that was related to the thread. It would have been perfectly ok to ask if we could move the legal debate to a different thread.

i was enjoying the discussion, or more specifically, the legal concept of fraud.

The RCL rolling cancellation idea of 90 days based on time needed to be sail ready was one question I had in regards to Disney. If you know you can’t be ready, quit selling. I am assuming this is, in actuality, what RCL is doing.

I also thought they would need to sell with a reduced vacancy, as cruises out of Singapore, and soon Israel, are reported as doing. Wonder if DCL is stopping booking at 50% occupancy?

... The more times I read Chapek’s statement, the more I think they have no expectation to sail this fall, either. Just stringing us along. My gut feeling is no DCL vacation in 2021.

If I had not paid with gift cards and had no one else involved (family members), I would say punt the OBB discount and the 125% FCC and get our money back now. Then reconsider cruising in several years. I’ve got 17 DCL cruises under my belt; I could be done.

... well, if Lighthouse Point gets developed, I would certainly like to go.