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Chapek: "Maybe by this fall-Limited Operations of Our (Disney) Cruise Ships"

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If DCL is truly not even trying to have a summer 2021 sailing season, they need to announce that. Aside from all the workers who need cruising to resume to generate income, they should let their customers make alternative vacation plans.
That is not what I read Chapek's statement as. I'm positive that Disney would LOVE to have a summer 2021 sailing season. Instead, I read this as Disney acknowledging that it's unlikely that sailing will resume this summer, considering all that needs to happen for that happen. It's not a 0% chance that cruises resume this summer, but it's probably well below 10%. And they are not abandoning hope at this time either; we just need to understand that it's a longshot at best.
 
I think infinitesimal is a big stretch. You can't ignore that about 40% of the population have said that they won't get it and then we've got everyone UNDER the age of 16 that can't even get it, even if they want to. The next group will be 12-16 which will hopefully be this summer, but that still leaves all the under 12 group to get approved, maybe by fall...maybe? Then there's the issue of the new variants that are starting to rampage and we don't actually know that the vaccines are as effective on them. So in my mind, we are still very much going to be dealing with lower, but still steady infection rates at least through the summer and maybe even slightly into the fall.

Summer for 12-16 year olds is probably optimistic, unless maybe very end of summer. I agree though that summer is still iffy, and the variants are a complete unknown. Texas is way behind, and it's a big customer of DCL. I think I will be lucky if I can get one by the end of summer.
 
They've been doing that for ages now. (Last summer's Alaska cruises as a first example. And everything after that.)

It solves a cash flow problem.
There may be other reasons, but that is my guess.

But it is fraud, plain and simple. As at attorney, I would be very concerned if my client was taking money to solve cash flow problems, and publicly stating they had no intention of those cruises taking place.

Some have have pointed out that Chapek would probably say they are still aiming to open as soon as possible, they were taking reservations with that goal, but he was giving investors the most realistic assessment. the problem is his statement doesn't actually suggest that. If we take him at his word, it sounds like he doesn't believe there is any chance of sailing this summer and fall is a best-case scenario. If true, it is actual fraud to be sailing the cruises for the summer still.

Disney would be smart to release a clarification, saying that despite Chapek's comments, it will sail earlier if cleared by the CDC and conditions warrant it.
 
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But it is fraud, plain and simple. As at attorney, I would be very concerned if my client was taking money to solve cash flow problems, and publicly stating they had no intention of those cruises taking place.

Some have have pointed out that Chapek would probably say they are still aiming to open as soon as possible, they were taking reservations with that goal, but he was giving investors the most realistic assessment. the problem is his statement doesn't actually suggest that. If we take him at his word, it sounds like he doesn't believe there is any chance of sailing this summer and fall is a best-case scenario. If true, it is actual fraud to be sailing the cruises for the summer still.

Disney would be smart to release a clarification, saying that despite Chapek's comments, it will sail earlier if cleared by the CDC and conditions warrant it.
Well I am not an attorney but common sense tells you it isn't fraud because it appears they want to be prepared to sail on short notice, AND they are prepared to refund money if it doesn't happen. As Judge's like to say in jury instructions "what would a reasonable person do".
Tesla took huge deposits on Model 3's, and didn't deliver the cars for three years.
 


Well I am not an attorney but common sense tells you it isn't fraud because it appears they want to be prepared to sail on short notice, AND they are prepared to refund money if it doesn't happen. As Judge's like to say in jury instructions "what would a reasonable person do".
Tesla took huge deposits on Model 3's, and didn't deliver the cars for three years.

Fraud is intentional deception to secure unfair or unlawful gain. Selling a cruise implies you think there is a possibility it can sail. The CEO is saying that even in a best-case scenario, he doesn't think summer cruises are happening. Saying the consumer should have known better, is not a defense. Not to mention, not all consumers are following the cruise industry religiously like most of us. Even having the contractual right to cancel, as they do, wouldn't be a defense to an intentional deception. If Disney is truly selling these cruises to help with cash flow, with no intention of sailing, it is fraud. I am not saying they are - I am saying they have created that perception and need to correct it if it is not the case.
 
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Well I am not an attorney but common sense tells you it isn't fraud because it appears they want to be prepared to sail on short notice, AND they are prepared to refund money if it doesn't happen. As Judge's like to say in jury instructions "what would a reasonable person do".
Tesla took huge deposits on Model 3's, and didn't deliver the cars for three years.
You’re wrong. Taking money for a service you have no intention of providing (per the actual words of the ceo) is straight up fraud.
 
You’re wrong. Taking money for a service you have no intention of providing (per the actual words of the ceo) is straight up fraud.
Come on, he has no control if those cruises CAN go. And it isn't like they aren't refunding money.
 


Fraud is intentional deception to secure unfair or unlawful gain. Selling a cruise implies you think there is a possibility it can sail. The CEO is saying that even in a best-case scenario, he doesn't think summer cruises are happening. Saying the consumer should have known better, is not a defense. Not to mention, not all consumers are following the cruise industry religiously like most of us. Even having the contractual right to cancel, as they do, wouldn't be a defense to an intentional deception. If Disney is truly selling these cruises to help with cash flow, with no intention of sailing, it is fraud. I am not saying they are - I am saying they have created that perception and need to correct it if it is not the case.
And I am saying a Judge would throw such a lawsuit out because a pandemic is not within the control of anyone at DCL.
 
And I am saying a Judge would throw such a lawsuit out because a pandemic is not within the control of anyone at DCL.

Your simply wrong. Misleading is within control of the company, if they are indeed doing that. It's the (possible) intentional misleading that is the issue, not the pandemic.
 
Your simply wrong. Misleading is within control of the company, if they are indeed doing that. It's the (possible) misleading that is the issue, not the pandemic.
I respectfully disagree. I think a Judge would toss any lawsuit immediately. EVERYONE knows that the future of cruising is unknown. Like I said, the Judge shows are currently full of cases now where people took money for services that the pandemic prevented them from providing. The big one seems to be Weddings and Wedding receptions. The Judges are tossing all the suits due to "circumstances beyond the control" of the parties involved
 
Ok but...does this mean we should book a couple of summer cruises and bring in that sweet, sweet 125% FCC?
Thank you. How can it be fraud when DCL is giving you a 25% bonus for booking with them on a cruise that gets canceled? Their customers who book are out nothing, and actually getting about 50 times what their money would earn in a CD these days.
 
This was a comment at the shareholders meeting so these aren’t throwaway off the cuff statements. There are briefing books, runthroughs, and sample conversation- they knew cruising would be discussed.
I also think Chapeak is very briefed about cruising given the current risks, government involvement, and international component of CoVid cruising. Something that has the potential to land a company all over media is not something a major CEO is going to be ignorant of.
No, these are not throwaway statements - these are canned statements. Not a discussion either - just a single question. Chapek is deeply involved in the re-opening discussions with governments - but that is not waiting for a cruising restart. The parks are the real media liability if things go wrong.

Here is the transcript of the entire answer:

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Q. Do you have any updates on restarting the ships as well as the proposed health and safety standards yet?

Chapek: We are very anxious to get our Disney cruiseline business back up and running. As you know, the cruise industry had been hit quite hard by COVID, and as of right now, we don't have any definitive information in terms of when we'll be able to reopen up our cruise lines.

We're anticipating that with some luck and the increase of the number of vaccinations out there and the encouraging trends that we're seeing that maybe by this fall, we might be able to have some limited operations of our cruise ships.

But that's all going to depend on the incidence of the virus and the vaccination of the general public. So we look forward - when we do open up - to using the very same disciplined guidelines that we've used in our parks and to safely reopen and use those same guidelines on the Disney cruise line.

So we hope to have you as a guest on our ships when we are able to reopen.

Thank you. Next question.
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Reference: https://thewaltdisneycompany.com/app/uploads/2021/03/ASM-V2.mp3

If this was Fain from RCL or Del Rio from NCL, he would answer the question more intelligently.

1. Disney doesn't have "cruise lines".
2. The health and safety standards required are not like those at the parks.
3. CDC's involvement in the restart is a big discussion point, and a reference to it is a must.
4. DCL is still selling summer cruises right on its website!

Most DCL cruisers - not surprisingly - vastly overestimate DCL's importance in the broader Disney ecosystem. Or the amount of time the top Disney execs have for it.
 
I hear you. Our funds have been tied up since March 2019 for Sept 2020 B2B -canceled, Jan 2021 - canceled, May 2021 - canceled. Two full years to the month. Looking forward to something as soon as Summer 2022 gets released.

I'm torn about this...we of course were on one of those legs of your B2B...and we rescheduled for October 2021...but I'm kind of hoping we don't sale, and I can just get our money back (and we can revisit the trip in October 2022)... 😕
 
Thank you. How can it be fraud when DCL is giving you a 25% bonus for booking with them on a cruise that gets canceled? Their customers who book are out nothing, and actually getting about 50 times what their money would earn in a CD these days.

I respectfully disagree. I think a Judge would toss any lawsuit immediately. EVERYONE knows that the future of cruising is unknown. Like I said, the Judge shows are currently full of cases now where people took money for services that the pandemic prevented them from providing. The big one seems to be Weddings and Wedding receptions. The Judges are tossing all the suits due to "circumstances beyond the control" of the parties involved

Nobody is talking about unforeseeable circumstances here - we are talking about possible misrepresentations based on what Disney already knows.

It's not a defense to fraud to say, "but we gave them there money back and a little extra!" That is an issue of damages. It is a good reason we probably won't see any lawsuits, but it isn't a basis for the judge to "throw out" a case. Furthermore, it doesn't mean some customers won't have actual damages if they incur other nonrefundable expenses or the like. Not to mention punitive damages, which are likely in a fraud case.

You want to raise the defense that the customer should have known the cruises being sold this summer wouldn't sail. Your intuition isn't wrong - what is wrong is where it would come into play in a trial. One element to fraud is that the plaintiff had to have reasonably relied on the misrepresentation. You are making the argument that it wasn't reasonable for people booking cruises right now to rely on Disney's implied representation that they might actually sail. The problem is that even if you are right, that is usually an issue of fact (a legal term of art, meaning a fact finder - usually a jury - gets to decide). A judge can't throw out a case based on an issue of fact - those are what trials are actually for.

And, I don' think that issue is as clean cut as you say. What about a customer who doesn't follow the cruise industry religiously and simply goes up to Disney's website to book? I think it is perfectly reasonable for someone in that situation to assume that if Disney is selling the cruise, Disney will sail if possible and it hasn't already decided it won't or can't. Heck, there are informed customers on Disboards who said they were surprised by the comments because they thought Disney might sail sooner.

And keep in mind, the actual issue here isn't whether sailing is likely, it is whether Disney already knows it won't happen, but is selling cruises anyway. When I see Chapek's comments in full context, as posted by @Intr3pid, I think Disney has more wiggle room in the comments than the short snippets posted above indicated. But, I still think Disney left itself vulnerable to a fraud claim, depending on what is happening behind the scenes, which is something a plaintiff could learn in discovery. I am not even saying it is a good case, or that someone should file it (I would never file a case like this one). But, Disney would be wise to release a clarification if their intent is actually to sail this summer if reasonably possible. Either that, or yank the cruises from the website - which is the right thing to do if they know they aren't sailing already.

There may even be some state consumer protection law violations in this situation if Disney really is still selling a product it has no intention of providing if reasonably possible.

Royal Caribbean made it clear that the reason it keeps canceling three months out, is because it keeps aiming to sail in 90 days, which is the timeframe it needs to be up and running after CDC clearance. So we know it has the intent to sail just as soon as it can, which is apparently not the case with Disney.

If you don't mind, can we move on from the technical legal claims? Fraud doesn't always rise to the level of a legal claim for it to be wrong, and a case is very unlikely here. Let's focus on what really matters - do you think it is ethically right for a company to sell a product it knows it has no intention of delivering?
 
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Nobody is talking about unforeseeable circumstances here - we are talking about possible misrepresentations based on what Disney already knows.

It's not a defense to fraud to say, "but we gave them there money back and a little extra!" That is an issue of damages. It is a good reason we probably won't see any lawsuits, but it isn't a basis for the judge to "throw out" a case. Furthermore, it doesn't mean some customers won't have actual damages if they incur other nonrefundable expenses or the like. Not to mention punitive damages, which are likely in a fraud case.

You want to raise the defense that the customer should have known the cruises being sold this summer wouldn't sail. Your intuition isn't wrong - what is wrong is where it would come into play in a trial. One element to fraud is that the plaintiff had to have reasonably relied on the misrepresentation. You are making the argument that it wasn't reasonable for people booking cruises right now to rely on Disney's implied representation that they might actually sail. The problem is that even if you are right, that is usually an issue of fact (a legal term of art, meaning a fact finder - usually a jury - gets to decide). A judge can't throw out a case based on an issue of fact - those are what trials are actually for.

And, I don' think that issue is as clean cut as you say. What about a customer who doesn't follow the cruise industry religiously and simply goes up to Disney's website to book? I think it is perfectly reasonable for someone in that situation to assume that if Disney is selling the cruise, Disney will sail if possible and it hasn't already decided it won't or can't. Heck, there are informed customers on Disboards who said they were surprised by the comments because they thought Disney might sail sooner.

And keep in mind, the actual issue here isn't whether sailing is likely, it is whether Disney already knows it won't happen, but is selling cruises anyway. When I see Chapek's comments in full context, as posted by @Intr3pid, I think Disney has more wiggle room in the comments than the short snippets posted above indicated. But, I still think Disney left itself vulnerable to a fraud claim, depending on what is happening behind the scenes, which is something a plaintiff could learn in discovery. I am not even saying it is a good case, or that someone should file it (I would never file a case like this one). But, Disney would be wise to release a clarification if their intent is actually to sail this summer if reasonably possible. Either that, or yank the cruises from the website - which is the right thing to do if they know they aren't sailing already.

There may even be some state consumer protection law violations in this situation if Disney really is still selling a product it has no intention of providing if reasonably possible.

Royal Caribbean made it clear that the reason it keeps canceling three months out, is because it keeps aiming to sail in 90 days, which is the timeframe it needs to be up and running after CDC clearance. So we know it has the intent to sail just as soon as it can, which is apparently not the case with Disney.

If you don't mind, can we move on from the technical legal claims? Fraud doesn't always rise to the level of a legal claim for it to be wrong, and a case is very unlikely here. Let's focus on what really matters - do you think it is ethically right for a company to sell a product it knows it has no intention of delivering?


Oh. My. Goodness. Can we just let this go???? This has turned into a "mine is bigger than yours" discussion
 
Oh. My. Goodness. Can we just let this go???? This has turned into a "mine is bigger than yours" discussion

Huh? That's a weird response to two other people having a friendly debate about a technical topic. There is no innuendo of who is more masculine, as you suggest. If you don't like it, your are free to move along. I can't imagine telling people that they shouldn't be discussing one aspect of Disney cruising on a Disney cruising board just because it didn't appeal to me. It was a perfectly civil and on-topic discussion. But, sure, I will drop it. It's not that important to me.

The poster below articulated a preference in a much more reasonable manner. I get not wanting to pollute this thread and will let it go.
 
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I'd personally rather the "Is it FRAUD????" debate move to its own thread so this can be left to discuss Chapek's comments as they apply to restarts, but I'm not a mod, so I can just put those posters who want to argue legal theories on ignore. Coming back to the restart issue, I wonder if a lot of the hesitancy is due to the current CDC requirements, which I'm personally hoping will be modified to reflect new guidance as we move forward with vaccination and get more evidence that a vaccinated population can safely interact. That might not happen by summer, but it seems to follow, logically. One issue is obviously younger people, who can't get the vaccine. We have a July 2 cruise booked. I don't really expect it to sail, but that's okay, we'll just take the FCC and move it. On the other hand, I would feel comfortable sailing on a ship where vaccination was required for 16 and above. I would imagine for that reason, they would still need to reduce capacity and require masks, social distancing, etc. The last thing DCL wants is an outbreak or a bunch of sick kids, so I'm sure they will be extra cautious. They can afford to wait it out, unlike some other companies who are probably a bit more eager to get started.

Chapek clearly has access to better info than I do. I'll just hope that it's a case of under-promise, over-deliver! But, if not, we look forward to 2022. Safety first.
 
Huh? That's a weird response to two other people having a friendly debate about a technical topic. If you don't like it, your are free to move along. I can't imagine telling people that shouldn't be discussing one aspect of Disney cruising on a Disney cruising board just because it didn't appeal to me. It is on topic, civil, and perfectly ok to be discussing here. There are plenty of other fluffy topics if you want to keep it light. No need to self-appoint yourself as a mod of these boards.
Definitely not appointing myself as a mod. But I don't think continuing a debate about whether or not Disney leaving sailings available for purchase legally constitutes fraud is "on topic." My opinion and comment to 'please let it go' are just as "...civil, and perfectly ok to be discussing here" as yours.
 
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