Carnival Liberty engine room fire

[C6PT7]

As of this morning at 0700 she was still at the dock... Funny, sources seems very quiet about what was the cause and extent of the fire.

Any word on where she will be heading? A Port of call or yard?


AKK

Here's the latest from Pauleydm


pauleydm

Cool Cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Orlando, Florida
Posts: 802

It is official. We have received clearance to sail to San Juan!!! The captain just made the announcement.





And marine traffic shows a ETA in San Juan of 11:00 UTC

• CALL SIGN:
  HPYE
• IMO:
  9278181
• MMSI:
  371083000

Received:
1 min ago
(AIS Source: 1845 Carlos Padro)

• Status:
  Moored
• Speed/Course:
  0.0kn / 57°
• Destination:
  SAN JUAN
• ETA:
  2015-09-11 11:00 (UTC)

 

[C6PT7]

I'm guessing there's going to be changes to that plan. I don't know anything about marine engines but I would think getting the damaged engine repaired/replaced will take longer than 3 days and probably needs to be done in a proper shipyard. I guess they could try to sail with only 3 but wouldn't that affect performance?

I guess it could just be the availability of parts. There was a video posted on CC from Royal about the learnings after a ship fire, and in the subsequent fire the only real damage was a $500 sensor. Maybe they do not carry that sensor onboard as a spare? Maybe a part that failed needs to be replaced on all of the engines and they do not have enough spares on the ship, or were awaiting them from the manufacturer? Maybe the damage required specialist parts that have to be custom made?

 

[truck1]

I'm guessing there's going to be changes to that plan. I don't know anything about marine engines but I would think getting the damaged engine repaired/replaced will take longer than 3 days and probably needs to be done in a proper shipyard. I guess they could try to sail with only 3 but wouldn't that affect performance?

Basically what Tonkas Skipper said. Theres 2 types of propulsion in the cruise ship world. Theres pods, and traditional prop rudder. A pod is basically a motor (different from and engine) and a prop attached in 1 unit. The main advantage is that its 1 contained unit and doesn't take up the amount of space traditional prop shaft rudder arrangement uses. The disadvantage is that to repair the unit, the ship has to come out of the water.
the other is the traditional prop rudder shaft arrangement, which an electric motor, turns a shaft which in turn moves the prop and the ship moves. Both units use electric motors to actually turn the shafts and props. A main engine on the other hand is usually a diesel engine(some lines are experimenting with turbines but they come with their own set or issues) that is paired with generator set and designed to run at a set speed to create a given amount of power. The power from the engine goes in to 2 different distribution boxes, and is monitored by computer, and the computers decide how much power is available vs needs. If it needs more, it makes the recommendation to start another engine which someone hits a few commands and an engine starts etc. Its very similar to a load manager in a truck. Typically 1 engine is dedicated to each propulsion motor, and others are brought online to make up the demand for hotel services, like air conditioning, water, sewer elevators etc.

As far as how long does it take to repair, it really depends on what the damage is. And that will be public knowledge when the USCG puts out a report. Using Splendor as an example, the after fire investigation showed that there was numerous mistakes made during the fire and any time and I do mean anytime in the 3-5 years prior, someone should have noticed some things and prevented the extensive damage or at least minimized the damage. It basically said that a main engine crankcase failed, throwing heated oil out which in its atomized state flashed and set fire to not only the oil but the wiring that ran to the distribution box. There is at least 6 people I can think of off hand that should have found most of the issues. Back to the Liberty. It could be something very simple that was damaged but is preventing the use of a 2nd engine like a sensor, coupling or even a computer brain. In which case its a few hour fix. Basically take the fried unit out, replace it with new. Test. Send the ship on its merry way. Most lines stock spare parts in a central warehouse. DCLs is on OIA property. I honestly don't know where Carnivals is but Id go out on a limb and say somewhere in Miami since that is where they are headquartered. Now, if it was a block break like the Splendor, then yes, shell need a dry dock and they'll basically cut a whole in the side of the ship, pull the old unit out, and replace it with a new. But since they are still planning on the next trip, Im thinking that its a smaller part that failed and is on its way from Mia. Within the next few days the ship will be back to full power and the USCG will sign off on the repair.

 

[truck1]

To truck1 and Tonka's Skipper.... since I started reading these Boards, I have seen numerous posts from the two of you that indicate an immense knowledge about Maritime issues. I for one rely on your expertise and know that I can depend on what you say as fact, not some blow hard trying to sound well versed. May I ask your background. Perhaps this is known to the more seasoned member but I am respectfully curious. Thanks for keeping us informed (correctly).

Sure and your welcome by the way.
Besides being a firefighter, and a Disney lover, ( I used to work for Disney when I first moved down here) among other things, Im also working on my 100ton Capts lic. Something I plan to use for my retirement. Any way, theres a lot of similarities between the Maritime industry and the fire service. We both have a board or group that looks at all aspects of the service from equipment, to safety to qualifications. The names are different that's about it.

With that said, Im also very inquisitive by nature and love watching shows like Build it Bigger, where they have done several episodes on different cruise ships where the host would go to work on a sister ship of the ship that's being built, so you get to see how they drop a block into the dry dock, how they drop the engines in, etc. On the in service ship, youll see how they load bags, clean cabins perform routine maint etc. Everything on a new build basically arrives on a given day and doesn't sit long before its installed. Another show was Project Xtreme that showed the drydocking of the Magic. I also love talking to people that actually are in the know. Ive talked to Karl Holz, Joe Lansziero, (basically the person who finalized all of the drawings on the Dream class) John Lassetter, and more then a few people that have done work on the ships for 1 reason or another, among others. You can get some very good insight from those gentlemen if you know what questions to ask and how. Joe, confirmed for me, that the Dream class is actually the 3rd Disney ship class. Theres an in between class that was announced but never built. At the time I was working for Disney when the in between class was announced and quietly killed several months later due to the economic downturn after 9/11. This past July, I got to talk to Capt Henry for close to 30 minutes because no one else was paying attention. He is a real nice guy and straightforward. No tap dancing, no excuses. I asked why the change from the hull shapes from the Magic class, to the Dream class. His answer somewhat surprised me. It was actually the way the contract was written. It was as simple as that. DCLs requirement was for ships of a given tonnage and a given number of cabins. This is what the naval engineers came up with.

In the case of a ship like Carnival Liberty, or even the Triumph, the US Coast Guard almost always puts out a report, and its available to the public. Ive read the Triumphs and Splendors reports. If I were in charge of Carnival at the time, a lot of people would be clearing desks. There was enough mistakes made by multiple people that at any given time in the 3-5 years prior should have caught. Since the CG was onboard and asked for assistance, there will be a report out in the next few months with advisories on how to prevent the issue from happening again. Its all about safety.

 

[C6PT7]

That makes no sense what so ever. If that's the case the CG would have already said the ship isn't going anywhere, even with a tug, and wouldn't have let the crew and passengers onboard even tied to the pier.

@truck1 I wonder if the fire was with one of the mains, or one of the electrical motors for propulsion and thats why they have delayed sailing until now? Sailing on one prop would be a last resort I would think? And it would explain the need to have electrical wiring and or electronics replaced?

 

[truck1]

@truck1 I wonder if the fire was with one of the mains, or one of the electrical motors for propulsion and thats why they have delayed sailing until now? Sailing on one prop would be a last resort I would think? And it would explain the need to have electrical wiring and or electronics replaced?

Assuming that Pauly was correct on CC, it was reported that 1 main engine set was affected and a 2nd could not be started due to its proximity to the damaged engine. That sounds more like a main engine gen set issue then a propulsion motor. Could they get to San Juan on 1 prop. Sure. Theyd have to have tug assistance getting out of St Maarten and in to San Juan. But thinking back on it it sounds like a fuel fire from a failed line or return line on a main or a failed generator then a propulsion motor.

 

[kittymamma]

To truck1 and Tonka's Skipper. One of these days I will figure out how to "quote" from a post.........but, until then....thank you both for taking the time to answer. This old gray hair is impressed by your résumé's and appreciate that you use your knowledge to keep us informed.

 

[C6PT7]

Assuming that Pauly was correct on CC, it was reported that 1 main engine set was affected and a 2nd could not be started due to its proximity to the damaged engine. That sounds more like a main engine gen set issue then a propulsion motor. Could they get to San Juan on 1 prop. Sure. Theyd have to have tug assistance getting out of St Maarten and in to San Juan. But thinking back on it it sounds like a fuel fire from a failed line or return line on a main or a failed generator then a propulsion motor.

Sorry, I must have missed where Pauley said that. It would seem to make sense that the electrical motor is very close to the gen set (motor and generator) to save on space and HV cabling?
If the engines are positioned side by side in pairs, that does make sense that if one had had a problem, they would be reluctant to start the other. Also how hotel services have been maintained with the other two forward of the prop gens, and the 5th in a separate engine room.

 

[C6PT7]

The power from the engine goes in to 2 different distribution boxes, and is monitored by computer, and the computers decide how much power is available vs needs. If it needs more, it makes the recommendation to start another engine which someone hits a few commands and an engine starts etc. Its very similar to a load manager in a truck. Typically 1 engine is dedicated to each propulsion motor, and others are brought online to make up the demand for hotel services, like air conditioning, water, sewer elevators etc.

@truck1 if the 'mains' sole purpose is to power the electrical propulsion motors, why would their energy be diverted to two different locations?From what I've read, in a traditional prop vessel, you have gen sets that power the electrical motors to drive the prop shaft, and when additional power to what the two gen sets can produce is needed, as in to run at a higher speed and sail faster, an additional gen set is brought online to provide the additional load. That gen set may also be already online providing hotel services power, so another gen set is brought on line too. That and one gen set is reserved for maintenance to be carried out, so a 5 engine/gen set ship will mostly operate on 4, with a 5th, if available and not under maintenance?

 

[truck1]

Ill use the Magic Class as an example since we can all visualize her. Theres 3 independent rooms. The forward engine room has I think 3 engines 2 side by side and the 3rd on the centerline behind the first pair. In a separate room or the aft engine room, there are a pair of engines side by side. I might have them backwards. Ill look when I get home. Then theres a 3rd room that contains the 2 electric drive motors or propulsion motors. This is done for a variety of reasons, like fire, if 1 room burns, the other should be unaffected, if 1 rooms floods, the whole ship doesn't flood, its limited to 1 area. So theoretically the removal of either room would still allow a ship to limp home with most things unaffected. Theres also a mix of engines onboard. Usually 2 are bigger and turn at a medium speed and the others are usually smaller and may turn slower. Both sizes put out different amounts of power.

The way it typically works is that when any given engine is running, its power its sent to a big box called a power distribution box. On DCL Im almost positive there are 2. is primary the other back up so if something like the Splendor happens and a pdb is taken out, theres still a back up. A computer actually controls how much power goes where based on demand. So the power doesn't go directly from a genset to say a thruster. It goes to at least 1 box and a computer opens or closes a switch to determine where the power goes. So when a ship is sitting in port, and the propulsion motors aren't running, there less demand so the ship shuts down 2 engines, and the other 1 or 2 supplies the power to the rest of the ship. When a ship is at sea, on the Magic class, 1 genset is dedicated to power each propulsion motor, and and 1 or 2 supplies the hotel. So at least 3 if not 4 engines run. Sometimes all 5. Depends on the situation.

 

[C6PT7]

Ill use the Magic Class as an example since we can all visualize her. Theres 3 independent rooms. The forward engine room has I think 3 engines 2 side by side and the 3rd on the centerline behind the first pair. In a separate room or the aft engine room, there are a pair of engines side by side. I might have them backwards. Ill look when I get home. Then theres a 3rd room that contains the 2 electric drive motors or propulsion motors. This is done for a variety of reasons, like fire, if 1 room burns, the other should be unaffected, if 1 rooms floods, the whole ship doesn't flood, its limited to 1 area. So theoretically the removal of either room would still allow a ship to limp home with most things unaffected. Theres also a mix of engines onboard. Usually 2 are bigger and turn at a medium speed and the others are usually smaller and may turn slower. Both sizes put out different amounts of power.

The way it typically works is that when any given engine is running, its power its sent to a big box called a power distribution box. On DCL Im almost positive there are 2. is primary the other back up so if something like the Splendor happens and a pdb is taken out, theres still a back up. A computer actually controls how much power goes where based on demand. So the power doesn't go directly from a genset to say a thruster. It goes to at least 1 box and a computer opens or closes a switch to determine where the power goes. So when a ship is sitting in port, and the propulsion motors aren't running, there less demand so the ship shuts down 2 engines, and the other 1 or 2 supplies the power to the rest of the ship. When a ship is at sea, on the Magic class, 1 genset is dedicated to power each propulsion motor, and and 1 or 2 supplies the hotel. So at least 3 if not 4 engines run. Sometimes all 5. Depends on the situation.

Here is a great video (a bit shaky and not HD! but gives you a walk though of the engine rooms of the magic.From the video, it seems they have 3 smaller engines side by side in the forward engine room, through a water tight door, then two main larger engines in the aft engine room, then again in a separate room, presumably through another water tight door, the electrical motors and props.
It shows just how expansive and massive, even on what today is a smaller cruise ship, the engine room space is!

http://www.dieselduck.info/videos/#.VfIwprQm-7i

 

[C6PT7]

pauleydm

Cool Cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Orlando, Florida
Posts: 805

We are slowly pulling out of St Thomas!!! Off to San Juan!!!



Received:
1 min ago
(AIS Source: 188 Cullinan Castle)

• Status:
  Underway
• Speed/Course:
  12.3kn / 182°
• Destination:
  SAN JUAN
• ETA:
  2015-09-11 11:00 (UTC)

 

[C6PT7]

16 knots now, so she seems to be fixed to get to San Juan just fine

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

16 knots now, so she seems to be fixed to get to San Juan just fine

Agreed she should be fine. She seems to be taking her time which may be just because the distance is so short.. Act 2 will be what happens in San Juan.

AKK

 

[truck1]

To truck1 and Tonka's Skipper. One of these days I will figure out how to "quote" from a post.........but, until then....thank you both for taking the time to answer. This old gray hair is impressed by your résumé's and appreciate that you use your knowledge to keep us informed.

Your very welcome.

It's easy to quote a post. Under the post you want to quote hit either reply or +quote. Reply quotes that 1 post. + quote allows you to put multi posts into 1 message. Simply click the +quote button and the page will remember which posts you want to multi quote. Click On the +quote, under the general reply box towards the bottom of the page it will say insert quotes. Click that your quoted posts will be inserted into the message. On the mObie versions it's a little different but same concept.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

I'm intrigued by this comment. Although an entirely different type of incident, I wonder if this (along with all the others) points to a systemic problem with Carnival Corp and their standards for their Masters. I know that accidents happen, but would a more strict Master and ChEng have caught problems before they happened?

Hi OKW,

I don't have that answer.....I don't know much about the crews and Officers on the other vessels. In Fact, I found the Officers, Crew and Hotel staff on the triumph fire and tow to have acted excellently and said so a in the thread I ran on the Dis when she was adrift/towed in the Gulf.

Now Captain Schettino,

I followed and was posting on a long threat (8000 posts) in CC for Costa line on the Concordia tragedy and consider the actions of the Master and the Costa office staff to be disgraceful and criminal as the trails have supported.

Just a few points based on what information was made available:

1. The Costa operation rules permitted the *fly byes*, that is the close inshore passage to salute and toot the whistle at the shore people.. These can be done safely, but it is not worth the chance of a accident happening. I would point out when this was first talked about after the sinking, the Costa office tried to say they never permitted them....lies.

2. The vessel was moving inshore and was left on auto pilot way to long.

3. The Captain was in the MDR with his Girlfriend at this time, who was later on the bridge.

4. When he finially did get on the bridge it was to late to do anything, but I will say he did do all he could at that time to try and get off shore again. Makes me wonder about the duty Mates at that time.

HE maneuvered around and ended up letting her lay onto the rocks/bottom, the ER was heavily holed, and flooded out. She ended up on her stbd side.

5. After the collision with the rock and the holing the Captain seemed to think it was the time to spend 45 on the phone with the Costa office staff. At this time some passengers were told to go to the their cabins. It was 45 minute or so later that the alarm was sounded to go to muster stations................45 minutes!

6. The Captain it seems left the bridge and ended up as he put it *tripping into a lifeboat. That lifeboat was not launched for another 15 minutes and it seems the Captain could not find his way out of the lifeboat and he later arrived on the beach

7. The Captain ended up on a cell phone with the duty Officer of the Italian Coast Guard and the discussion would be funny if not a disgrace. The CG Officer asked the Captain how many people were still on board, the Captain didn't know, as he was supervising rescue from the (safety) beach. There was a rope ladder over the portside and the CG told the Captain to get onto the ship and report back on the conditions there. The Captain told the CG he could not do that because it was dark out. He never returned to the Concordia. Mind you the Mayor of the small town on the island, managed to climb that rope ladder and get onto the ship.

8. 33 people died. I believe 28 passengers, 2 crew members and a diver working to raised the wreck. Some were found still in their cabins. The Captain, 3 other crew members and 5 office staff were found guilty of various charges.



Theirs a outline!

AKK

 

[kittymamma]

Your very welcome.

It's easy to quote a post. Under the post you want to quote hit either reply or +quote. Reply quotes that 1 post. + quote allows you to put multi posts into 1 message. Simply click the +quote button and the page will remember which posts you want to multi quote. Click On the +quote, under the general reply box towards the bottom of the page it will say insert quotes. Click that your quoted posts will be inserted into the message. On the mObie versions it's a little different but same concept.

It seems you CAN teach on old dog new tricks...how 'bout that. Thanks !!

 

[cgolf]

Wow, now it looks like the Carnival Pride had a minor engine room issue too, Carnival just can't win.

 

[C6PT7]

Wow, now it looks like the Carnival Pride had a minor engine room issue too, Carnival just can't win.

I'm not sure it is that they cannot win, just that they "may" have to take better care in the engine rooms?

https://twitter.com/CarnivalCruise/status/644577065786851328

The consistent desire to be the most affordable cruise line must have an effect on staffing and maintenance costs, not that I am saying they are doing anything against or wrongly within the law.

I also saw yesterday that they have remove lobster tails from cruises of 5 days or less due to cost cutting even admitted by John himself.
Sorry, but if you are filling your ship more regularly than on a 7 day voyage, and for dcl the dream is supposed to be the cash cow, why?

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=47760772&postcount=1

 

[cgolf]

I'm not sure it is that they cannot win, just that they "may" have to take better care in the engine rooms?

https://twitter.com/CarnivalCruise/status/644577065786851328

The consistent desire to be the most affordable cruise line must have an effect on staffing and maintenance costs, not that I am saying they are doing anything against or wrongly within the law.

I also saw yesterday that they have remove lobster tails from cruises of 5 days or less due to cost cutting even admitted by John himself.
Sorry, but if you are filling your ship more regularly than on a 7 day voyage, and for dcl the dream is supposed to be the cash cow, why?

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=47760772&postcount=1

It has to be something, even with as many ships as they have the seem to have a higher rate of more substantial issues. I thought with all the bad press of the Triumph they would have been more on top of items like maintenance to keep their name out of the press.

Did think about starting a thread here, because it cracked me up reading some threads on CC. People complaining about Carnivals prices going up and items like the lobster going away on shorter cruises. And just like on this board someone chimed in that CCL won't change back there policies until people stop cruising. Looks like a lot of lines are cutting stuff like DCL is, grass may no be greener if we decide to switch lol