Can School Force Daughter to be in Marching Band???(Longgg, sorry)

Originally posted by auntpolly
OK, you guys win! :D I have to go do some work out of my office. I can see that many teachers could never understand those kids who aren't your average, typical, mainstream kids. Just know that you can keep your principles - but you'll lose kids in the process. They just will never learn the lesson you want them to learn and I just don't think it's worth it.
Oh I understand them very well. I work with them everyday and encourage them to be involved in the mainstream activities of school. I talk my break time to go interpret for them because our interpreter is mainstreaming other students so they don't just sit in music class and get nothing. I go to 5th grade graduation practice and interpret the songs they are doing so the can copy and sign the songs as the others sing. I voice for the kids who can or will not speak so they can participate in DARE. I push that wheelchair at track meets so they can race and help them toss that ball. I understand them very well and know that they just want to try to do the same things every other child does in life.
These kids are the reason I am in the process of changing my career and leaving substitute teaching and becoming a sign language interpreter in the community and not just at church.
 
It would be a wonderful world if we all could fit into EVERYTHING. It really would. It would also be wonderful if every young person realized in high school that no matter how they felt like they fit in in high school, when they graduated and made it on their own they would find a place where they fit in perfectly. I was not part of the "popular" crowd in high school. I struggled sometimes in high school to find where I could fit in. Yeah, it would have been great if I would have felt like I could do anything and fit into everything. Unfortunately that is not how high school or the world works. If a person feels uncomfortable in marching band then it's not for them. Just like cheerleading wasn't for me because I don't like to yell out in a crowd. So, I didn't do cheerleading. That's how any activity is in life. If you don't like part of it enough that you won't do it, then skip the activity. Don't expect the activity to change for you.
 
Originally posted by arminnie
Sorry - but I am missing something here. What does studying music and wanting to be a serious musician have to do with "marching"? Does someone who aspires to perform in a symphony orchestra need to know how to strut and form boxes out on a football field?

I kind of associate those precision marching bands with military like manuevers not necessarily with good music.

Of course I went to Stanford University and their band is most definitely not a precision marching band - some very talented and extremely irreverent musicians. The Stanford band is very well known and is way, way, way more entertaining than the precision bands at schools like USC.

Sounds like this is just a way to conscript students into forced labor at one of those schools that cares more about football halftime shows than a student getting a strong education in music.


That whole comment made my blood boil. I have a marching band student, who also plays concert band and jazz band. At our school and her other high school that we came from both were an option. Both are also award winning, both we accepted to march at Disney. (it's an audition process, not all schools get accepted).

I'm gonna stop here because I could get myself in a ton of trouble and this is the first time anyone has ever upset me here.
 
Originally posted by auntpolly
OK, you guys win! :D I have to go do some work out of my office. I can see that many teachers could never understand those kids who aren't your average, typical, mainstream kids. Just know that you can keep your principles - but you'll lose kids in the process. They just will never learn the lesson you want them to learn and I just don't think it's worth it.

EXCUSE ME?????

I am a teacher of special needs kids. In my 29 years of teaching, I have taught students that were both severely and physically impaired. I have also taught children with emotional disabilities and autism spectrum disorders. I currently teach young children with language delays, FAS, and processing issues in a regular classroom.

According to you these are not "your average, typical, mainstream kids" Guess what? THEY ARE! AND they have to follow the same rules and regulations that the rest of the school does. We have a student with AI on the HS wrestling team and he has to show up for practice just like everyone else to be a part of the team.

Once again, it boils down to choices and results. If the student chooses that HS with the band requirements, then the result is that she has to be in BOTH of the bands. There WAS another choice available to that student.

I have said it once and I will say it again; The tail does NOT wag the dog.

pinnie
 

I guess what it boils down to here is we're talking about band. Band is not important in the grand scheme of things. Band does not make the school money. Band is the first thing cut when something has to go. Sometimes the only way schools get to keep band is by having them perform during what DOES make the school money (namely, football games).

Exceptions are made everyday for football players (especially here in the midwest) because it's a revenue issue, plain and simple. So no, life isn't fair if you don't have a great arm or you're not a fantastic tackle. It's sad, but it's the way life is. If you can afford private music lessons, then I say do that. If you can't, then most colleges she attends will have music courses that do not require marching.

I was one of those kids who hated marching and made the choice not to continue band. Although I don't agree that they should be linked, they are, and it's something you'll have to accept. C'est la vie.
 
Originally posted by Pinnie
EXCUSE ME?????

I am a teacher of special needs kids. In my 29 years of teaching, I have taught students that were both severely and physically impaired. I have also taught children with emotional disabilities and autism spectrum disorders. I currently teach young children with language delays, FAS, and processing issues in a regular classroom.

According to you these are not "your average, typical, mainstream kids"

pinnie

hey don't put words in my mouth! I never said that and I was never talking about that kind of kid. I see Talking Hands post too - that's great that you work with kids, BTW, but you've misinterpreted me, both of you. I'm not talking about handicapped kids, I never mentioned handkicapped kids. I'm talking about shy kids. I'm talking about off-beat kids. I'm talking about troubled kids. I'm talking about kids who "feel" different. I'm talking about kids who think it isn't cool to be in the marching band. If you don't realize that there are kids who could never bring themselves to be in marching band, it's because they don't speak up much. They are the fringe. They are the kids who don't fit in or don't want to fit in. I guess you could say if they don't want to fit in who cares about them, but I always felt bad for those kids. Life can be very hard for them and many times they just give up.

And like I've said a hundred times, I know it's not always possible or practical, but what I'm saying is wouldn't it be great to <i>try</i>....but some of you just keep saying "nope, nope nope, they've gotta learn" and the fact is that the kids I'm thinking about will never learn it that way. You're right, life isn't fair. I'm just saying that I wish schools could look at rules and make sure there is a <i>good</i> reason for them. I'm sure there hare many instances of kids' lives being changed when teachers bend the rules just a little. I remember seeing a story on Oprah about a kid who wasn't good at anything except in art and the school wouldn't bend rules to keep him interested in school by encouraging his art - so he dropped out of school and has nothing. Like Dr. Phil says, did they want to be right or did they want to make it better?
 
Wow! This thread yesterday was just should this girl pick band or swimming, now it's an indictment of educators who don't understand offbeat kids?
You mean the great majority of the kids who are not cheerleaderes or football players? I can tell you that most of the teachers in my HS don't coddle those kids. We all try very hard to treat everyone equally. Now when a kid, ANY kid, does something to make us lose respect for them, it is hard to win it back. This is true if a football player gets caught drinking or a "goth" kid goes off on a spree.
"offbeat" kids who don't want to march would often rather be fronting their own garage band playing Metallica or even Matchbox 20 than playing "On Wisconsin" every Friday night (that's our fight song; just different words). If a kid is dedicated to a jazzier instrument (sax, clarinet) they can take lessons. I would say in MOST schools the orchestra and band are separate and perhaps they can use that as an outlet.
Let's get back to the original point. The girl needs to choose. I still don't know what she decided. Any new info?
Robin M.
 
hey, it started with me just suggesting that schools didn't need to be so inflexible!:D Then people started telling me I was anti-handicapped kids and that kids who didn't want to be in band were lazy....I'm just defendin' my position here, folks!:p
 
And a good position it is AuntPolly.

I think you've really hit on something that I've never thought of.

The "offbeat" kids that would "rather be fronting their own garage band playing Metallica" might just be doing that because it's their only avenue of musical expression. Would these kids even be allowed in one of these marching bands, what with the long hair and the piercings?

Many of these kids DON'T fit into the HS "experience." Granted. But is it because they are rebelling against the experience (as seems to be what I'd think the stereo-type to be) or is it that the "experience" hasn't given them any avenue in which TO FIT IN? Wouldn't it be better for the school to encourage ways for all its students to fit in? (Think Columbine.) Why not offer Marching Band, Concert Band, Symphony/Orchestra and Metal Band?? Sure, the Metal might not think much of the Marching, and the Symphony might look down on Metal, but at least within the Band to which one "belongs", there is a place for these students who might not feel like they belong anywhere else.

Just a thought. Thanks Aunt Polly for getting me to think it..... :D
 
Originally posted by auntpolly

And like I've said a hundred times, I know it's not always possible or practical, but what I'm saying is wouldn't it be great to <i>try</i>....but some of you just keep saying "nope, nope nope, they've gotta learn" and the fact is that the kids I'm thinking about will never learn it that way. You're right, life isn't fair. I'm just saying that I wish schools could look at rules and make sure there is a <i>good</i> reason for them. I'm sure there hare many instances of kids' lives being changed when teachers bend the rules just a little. I remember seeing a story on Oprah about a kid who wasn't good at anything except in art and the school wouldn't bend rules to keep him interested in school by encouraging his art - so he dropped out of school and has nothing. Like Dr. Phil says, did they want to be right or did they want to make it better?

Yup it would be great, but you know what? We live in a society that fly's planes into buildings because they claim Ala told them to do it, a world that kills for being different, strings people to fences left to die for being different. We are not all white, or black, or yellow, or red...we are many shades, and for that we need to understand that, and move on. Life is about choices. There is truly something for everyone, you just need to find it, and maybe sacrifice a bit. I may never be a millionaire, because I chose to make a difference by teaching in a small private school, but that is life. Kids are wonderful creatures that when treated properly, can be molded into the models of society. Nobody is casting them aside here, nobody is saying stop playing your instrument, or stop playing your sport. Bend the rules, no absolutley not. I grew up with rules as I am sure you did too, and I am dog gone proud of how I turned out, and to that I thank the hundreds of people that have touched my life in some small or large way. The guy that drove the equipement truck three quarters of the way across the country so I could dare to dream of winning a championship, or the woman who spent many hot days cooking over a hot stove in a small canteen truck so when me and the 127 of my closest friends were done practicing in the hundred degree heat for 8 hours, we would have something good to eat, and something cold to drink. They made choices too. My friends played basball all summer, but I chose to step on a field, and practice in 100+ temps in Alton Ill, Yippslanti Michigan, Louisville Kentucky, Marion Ohio, Great Bend Kansas, Pueblo Colorado. All places I may never have seen had I not made this choice. Was it for everyone? No. My dad spent many hours driving me an hour and a half each way to drum corps practice, sometimes 7 days out of the week. That was his choice. My point is If this young lady had no alternative in performing, then perhaps I could see your point, but seems to me the problem is because of the extra practices, and how it would inconvenience her parents. Oh well, we reap what we sow, right? You put out that extra mile for your child, you are rewarded many times over. I recently told my dad how proud I am of him for doing all he did for me when I was growing up, and I just hope I am so lucky to see my son reach for the stars one day soon in the stadium of champions. There was one particular night I remember the gleem in his eye as we won my last competion against a very huge opponent. It is those things that mean something, not when he dragged me off at age 8 to go to rehersals, when at that time I wanted to play in the dirt with my friends at home. His rule was simple, you made a commitment, now you will stick by it. I love him for that. Dedication, that's what it takes to be successful, and our childeren need to be taught that somwhere.

Ok, I will get off my soapbox, sorry for the rant, but it's so hot here. :)
 
Originally posted by auntpolly
hey don't put words in my mouth! I never said that and I was never talking about that kind of kid. I see Talking Hands post too - that's great that you work with kids, BTW, but you've misinterpreted me, both of you. I'm not talking about handicapped kids, I never mentioned handkicapped kids. I'm talking about shy kids. I'm talking about off-beat kids. I'm talking about troubled kids. I'm talking about kids who "feel" different. I'm talking about kids who think it isn't cool to be in the marching band. If you don't realize that there are kids who could never bring themselves to be in marching band, it's because they don't speak up much. They are the fringe. They are the kids who don't fit in or don't want to fit in. I guess you could say if they don't want to fit in who cares about them, but I always felt bad for those kids. Life can be very hard for them and many times they just give up.

And what classes do you think those troubled kids are in? The special ed classes. The LD kids, the emotionally handicapped kids, the behavior classes and on and on. And they have to follow the rules just like any other kid in school. If they mainstream then the have the exact same rules as everyone else. BTW even gifted and talented is a part special ed. Special ed is not only the physically and mentally handicapped any more.
And the daughter who choose to attend the high school that did not have marching band only concert band is gifted, LD, ADHD and physically handicapped and that has not changed the fact that she still had to go by the rules that everyone else did. She is one of the ones who never fit in the normal high school situation. She is also the one who has her own rock band and has played in several others and has been background musician on various recordings, played in symphony orchestras, does quartet work, plays in the church orchestra and worked for Tokyo Disney Sea as a fiddler.
 
Coach Rick, I can tell that you make a fine teacher. I hope I am as lucky to have teachers like your for my children. You made a very good point, and you said it very well! Thanks.
 
The "offbeat" kids that would "rather be fronting their own garage band playing Metallica" might just be doing that because it's their only avenue of musical expression. Would these kids even be allowed in one of these marching bands, what with the long hair and the piercings?

Actually yes - they would have to take out the piercings (just like the girls do - we were not allowed to wear earrings or paint our fingernails for competitions) but they would be accepted. We had 3 guitar players in the percussion section of our band. They loved it!

~Amanda
 
Yes they would. Both daughters have peircings and as long as they removed them for performances they were allowed in any of the music ensemble sin their respective schools.
 
KUDDOS Coach Rick!!!! Great post!

You be sure to point out your son on the Drum Corp field to me someday because you KNOW I will be there at finals to watch him!

pinnie
 
Originally posted by auntpolly
Boy is this not fair! Because you want to play an instrument in an orchestra or stage band you're lazy or something because you don't want to do marching band? I really don't think you're taking different personalities into account. And I'll bet most of these kids do exactly what you all are saying -- they just don't do band.

What you are saying is "Be like us or don't do music in school at all - this is how kids get disenfranchized and we lose some of them. I was in the marching band (didn't love it - but there weren't many options for girls in those days) -- my DH would have literally quit school before someone made him do it. Call him a quitter or whatever if you like, but he was just different, that's all. And there wasn't a place for him in the main stream. (I won't roll eyes at you!:D )

I'm sure a lot of guys don't play football because they don't want to spend hours in the heat practising, should they be exempt from practice.....
 
Gosh, that seems kind of rude! Insinuating that someone is lazy etc. Unless I have missed something big (and I admit it is entirely possible) Aunt Polly has just suggested that it would be nice if kids had options! Not everyone is into marching band. Just like several youngsters I know that would prefer to only do marching.

I have stated all ready that I understand the funding issues that make some of these decisions necessary and that there are outside options for music involvement.

And I still don't get the whole lecture thing. Maybe I was the one out in the sun too much today!
 
Bravo Coach Rick...You just brought tears to my eyes reading your post...Ahhhh the memories of the last 4 years!

My DD was in marching band (in Colorguard), Winter Guard, Winter Percussion(you had to be in fall marching band to do either winter guard or winter percussion) & a private drum corp that practiced 20 miles away from home and a part time job in her junior & senior years of high school....NOW that's commitment!
And yes for me there were countless hours for fund-raising, sewing flags, making costumes, driving to practices, competitions and shows & many parent band booster meetings, (I ended my last two years as secretary!) pushing for overrides in town so we didn't lose the music program altoghter! And I'll tell you, I would not give back one minute of it! When you see your child's face performing in front of you....or receiving that trophy in their hands or the medal around their necks from all the hard hours of practice and alot of parent patience.........I get goosebumps just thinking about it now!

Now that she's graduated from high school and chosen to attend an all girls college (without a marching band I might add!) I will miss not only her, but the excitement of watching her perform to the best of her ability.

And We just got word from the music director at a local high school nearby her college, that she will be helping to teach the guard there! She called many area high schools (back in Feb.& March when she made her commitment to this college)...looking for a postion with a high school marching band's guard........She was not looking to get paid for this, she just wanted her hand in a sport she loves......It's called The Sport of The Arts!!!

www.wgi.org www.nesba.org
 
OK then, I give up, you've convinced me -- all kids should do marching band whether they want to or not. Kids don't know their own minds, so let's just get them out there to band camp!!!!!:rotfl:
 
Originally posted by arminnie
No, really I wasn't. It's just that there must be some plan for students to do one without the other.

Yes, possibly, but there is a distinct difference between won't and can't.
 





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