Camcorder help

[Kelly Grannell]

Yes most only record 30 mins but there are mini dvds that do record 60 mins worth. I dont know who all sells them but I know Panasonic does at best buy. Besides the DC40 can do LP and can record up to 60 mins on a 30 min disc, and 120 mins on a double sided disc. I got this from the main canon website:

The DC40 digital camcorder gives you all the convenience and functionality of DVD technology, which includes a wide array of options for shooting and sharing your video. Only 3" (8cm) in diameter, the DC40's DVD -R/-RW discs are compatible with most DVD players and can store up to 30 minutes of video in standard mode and 60 minutes of video in long play mode. That's 120 minutes on a double-sided disc!

Yes, at a quality that's worse than VHS. The more 'minutes' you put in, the higher the compression rate. The disc capacity is finite. Even if you use dual-sided disc, then it's going to be 20min x 2 at the best quality (most recorder call it "XP mode"), which is still far worse than miniDV.

Put it this way. For most movies (average 90 minutes), they utilize professional, multiple pass (non-real time) MPEG encoder and they STILL need at least 6 Gb worth of disc space (that's why ALL current retail DVDs are dual-layer / 9 Gb to accomodate the movie itself, menu, special features, 5.1 soundtracks, etc). Mini DVD capacity is only 1.8 Gb, that means the movie being recorded can NOT be 1.8 Gb, 1.6 Gb max (due to header, TOC, compatibility track etc). So imagine cramming 1 hour to 1.6 Gb when the absolute most professional studio can not even do 30-minute realtime MPEG-2 compression to 1.6 Gb.

10 Mbps yields 20 minutes, most camcorder maker now have backed down to 8 Mbps to get 30 minutes onto a disc. To get 1 hour on a single disc you'll need about 3.5 Mbps max. Try watching that on a 20" TV at 6 ft away, especially when you're recording water movement of a lake, scenes with lots of tiny details. They will all look blocky (imagine enlarging a pic from your camera phone) and filled with weird-colour-shift (officially called "macroblocking" and "mosquito noise").

The only mode you can record with the absolute least artifacts is XP mode, which is 20 minutes per side, 40 minutes if you use dual-sided disc. 30 minutes per side (60 minutes dual side) for SP mode.

PS: there are 8cm (3") DVD labelled "60 minutes recording". That is true... but at what mode?

Just like VHS. There are SP, LP and EP modes. For DVD: XP, SP and LP modes (there are also EP and SLP modes, but they are completely unwatchable).

If you want, I can burn you (or anybody who is still adamant about the 'quality' of DVD) a compilation recording (of the same scene) recorded in XP vs SP vs LP vs EP vs SLP modes. You'll be surprised how bad the LP mode is.

I'm just trying to save you from making a grave mistake of using SP, or worse, LP mode.

 

[Kelly Grannell]

Yes but some(mostly older units) will not play all types of recordable media.


Mini DVD camcorders do have their place and for some they can be an excellent choice. Some persons just do not have the time, patience or skill to do all the transfering/editing/burning/etc... to end up with their footage on DVD. In the END if MiniDV footage is going to be burnt ontoDVD, the quality will equal that of straight to DVD(mini). Even if a disk only takes 30mins of footage, how hard is it to put in an other blank?

This is the 'thing'.

1 miniDV tape = 60 minutes.
1 full-sized DVD at XP = 60 minutes.

however, when you're recording using mini DVD, to get XP quality, you'll need THREE mini DVDs and the possibility or running out of space during recording an event (due to 20 minute limitation using XP quality) and losing some moments while the DVD is finalized (about 2 minutes), taken out, putting the disc in, initializing the disc (total about 3 to 4 minutes) before you can continue recording using a new disc.

PS: my bad, the useable space for mini DVD is actualy 1.4 Gb not 1.6 Gb (although the disc itself is 1.8 Gb). I forgot about the 0.2 Gb outer safe-area that's not utilized to ensure perfect burn (same goes with full-sized DVD, although the actual capacity is 4.7 Gb, the safe area is only 4.3 Gb for movie + 0.2 Gb for headers + TOC)

 

[Disney8704]

Well I dunno what to tell you all, but from the screen shots ive seen, the video looks pretty good and clear. Some how I cant imagine DVD being worse then VHS. DVD is supposed to be clearer and more fluid. I have a vhs camecorder that takes the small tapes and when we went down to disney last time the video turned out ok. It wasnt that great. Im not gonna post the entire website on here, so here is the link. You all can take a look at it and tell me if you still think the same thing or if you think differently when it comes to this camera.

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelDetailAct&fcategoryid=171&modelid=12927

 

[Kelly Grannell]

Disney8704, I give up

IF you're adamant that the quality is good, it's your prerogative. Screen capture doesn't say anything, it's resized for web, it's not a full-resolution screen grab. Mu husband and I have been compressing and encoding MPEG-2 for the past 2 years and doing it professionally and we've often been sub-contracted by Sony Pictures.

If you want to believe propaganda (even though it's from Canon, which company I incline to buy my camera gears from), go ahead. It seems like you've made up your mind anyway.

The fact remains. DVD at LP mode is far worse than VHS at SP mode. Heck, even VHS at EP mode doesn't have MPEG2 artifacts (blockiness, mosquiteo, macroblocking).

 

[kimbac3]

Ok, My cousin gave me her old camcorder. It's not ancient just so you know - about 2 yrs old. The problem with it (you knew there'd be a problem right ) is that the viewing screen doesn't work. The camera records fine and I can see through the regular view finder. What I need to know is if the viewing screen can be fixed or would that cost way too much money. Would it be worth it I guess is my question. She said her little sister dropped it and that's when the screen stopped working.
Thanks Again!
Kimba

 

[Disney8704]

Well I talked to my hubby about it last night when he called (hes currently deployed) and he seemed OK with it. Then I emailed him what you said and now hes like they are right, Im wrong, we'll either go with a DVD camcorder that records on regular DVDs or get a upgraded version of a minidv. Well being regular DVDs still record the same length of time as the mini dvds I found a canon zr700 online and its pretty much identical to the mini dvd one except one requires DVDs and the other tapes. Everything else is the same, except there is a few less scene modes for the minidv one. But still has that fireworks feature on it which I love. Why are you against buying from canon?

 

[MOmousefan]

One thing that steered me away from DVD format camcorders was an article I read in PC Magazine stating that the compression method with DVDs made it difficult to edit the videos. I look forward to affordable hard drive camcorders.

 

[Kelly Grannell]

Well I talked to my hubby about it last night when he called (hes currently deployed) and he seemed OK with it. Then I emailed him what you said and now hes like they are right, Im wrong, we'll either go with a DVD camcorder that records on regular DVDs or get a upgraded version of a minidv. Well being regular DVDs still record the same length of time as the mini dvds I found a canon zr700 online and its pretty much identical to the mini dvd one except one requires DVDs and the other tapes. Everything else is the same, except there is a few less scene modes for the minidv one. But still has that fireworks feature on it which I love. Why are you against buying from canon?

Hello, just in point form due to my time restriction.

1. I'm unaware of the existence of a DVD camcorder that uses full sized 5" DVD.
2. I'm 'against' Canon camcorder in general due to their not-to-stellar low-light situation. It compensates by boosting the colour saturation making everything looks to red, too green and too blue (to my trained eyes, at least). Sony is the better all-rounder for sub-$2k camcorders.

Cheers,
Kelly
gotta go again.

 

[caniswolfie]

I figured I would drop in a random comment. One of the ways the mini-DVD camcorders can increase their recording time is by using dual layer DVD's. That should at least extend it out about double the recording time. There is a Samsung Camcorder that does use the DL media increasing the recording time from 20mins to 35mins in the best recording mode.

I personally have issues with the whole using a Disc recorder on a shaky device, but not having used them before I don't know how it actually works in practice with buffers and anti skipping technologies.

 

[Kelly Grannell]

be aware that DL media (not DS/Dual Sided) have a 50% chance for not being readable by other players. At least from my very limited experience with them.

 

[caniswolfie]

be aware that DL media (not DS/Dual Sided) have a 50% chance for not being readable by other players. At least from my very limited experience with them.

Certainly a concern. I guess if you find a brick and mortar store with one of those camcorders, they might let you buy and burn a DL media sample to test in the players that might be used to check for compatibility. It's also probably a good way to test the quality modes as well.

Of course it is probably good form to buy from that store as well rather than just using them as a testing resource.

 

[Kelly Grannell]

Certainly a concern. I guess if you find a brick and mortar store with one of those camcorders, they might let you buy and burn a DL media sample to test in the players that might be used to check for compatibility. It's also probably a good way to test the quality modes as well.

Of course it is probably good form to buy from that store as well rather than just using them as a testing resource.

Even if they let you, that means you'll have to record continuously for at least 35 minutes in XP mode to get to the 2nd layer. I don't know whether the store will let you play for more than half hour while there are other people who may want to try the unit.

 

[caniswolfie]

True, but there's no harm in asking. And depending on when you ask and how busy the store is, it may not be a big deal. What's the worst they can say?

The other test that may be easier if you wanted to test Dual Layer capability would be to find someone with a computer dual layer recordable burner and burn a video disk and test that out. But that may not be accurate since isn't coming from the camcorder and wouldn't test quality of the camcorder. Not the best situation, but it could be something if anyone was curious whether their DVD player would work with Dual Layer media.

 

[kimbac3]

I hate to quote myself but I really want to know the answer to this question!
Doesn't anybody know?????

Ok, My cousin gave me her old camcorder. It's not ancient just so you know - about 2 yrs old. The problem with it (you knew there'd be a problem right ) is that the viewing screen doesn't work. The camera records fine and I can see through the regular view finder. What I need to know is if the viewing screen can be fixed or would that cost way too much money. Would it be worth it I guess is my question. She said her little sister dropped it and that's when the screen stopped working.
Thanks Again!
Kimba

 

[caniswolfie]

I guess the answer to your question depends on a couple of things. First off is how much you are willing to spend on this to be repaired. Just from searching on Google most of the labor rates and generic estimates were over a hundred dollars.

While the problem may just be a connection issue to the LCD panel, the labor still costs some and it usually isn't that cheap. If the LCD panel needs to be replaced I would say that you be better served getting another camcorder rather than repairing it. Even if it is just a connection issue, if you do get another camcorder, you receive a warranty with it and you also may get newer features that you currently don't have.

I would price shop around and see if there are any camcorders that have the features you have now. Then compare on how much that camcorder is and make a decision based on the fact that if this one is repaired it will not be under warranty and new one will.

Ultimately the final decision is up to you. If you can live with the lack of a LCD viewer and buy a new camcorder when this one finially dies or if you would rather have that funcionality and are willing to pay for it.