Cafeteria Catholics?

[Crankyshank]

Whether it's by NFP, barrier methods, or whatever - it's really up to the woman to choose which method is best for her. I'm sorry but a group of elderly men who aren't supposed to have sex at all really shouldn't be telling anyone what kind of birth control they should use.

Because really there's no difference between abstaining on certains days of the month and using condoms or other forms of artificial birth control imho - either way you're having sex for pleasure instead of procreation.

and if you go for it from the will of God angle, God can just as easily make bcp fail or poke a hole in a condom.

 

[BelleMcNally]

I sure do. I felt hated by the church from the time I was seven years old, precisely because girls and women are systematically barred from holding any place in the power structure of the organization.

I was raised catholic, went to catholic schools, have a huge, extended catholic family, the whole nine yards. I do sometimes enjoy being in a catholic church as the ritual feels sort of primal.

But I just couldn't do the cafeteria catholic thing, no matter how hard I tried. There is too much emphasis on things that Jesus was silent about (homosexuality, women priests, birth control, abortion) and too little emphasis, especially these days, on things that Jesus was very vocal about. It makes no sense to me that the church has such massive financial holdings when people are starving, for example. And I couldn't live with myself donating money to an organization that protects pedophiles at the expense of children and encourages the spread of HIV/AIDs through the teachings about condom usage. I just can't imagine Jesus approving.

But still, there are times when I wish I could in good faith be a cafeteria catholic.

 

[momof2inPA]

I sure do. I felt hated by the church from the time I was seven years old, precisely because girls and women are systematically barred from holding any place in the power structure of the organization.

Really? My kids' Catholic school principal and all the teachers are women. They have more influence over the children's faith formation than just about anyone, to be truthful. They don't set the rules and standards, but they do teach them and stress the ones they think are important.

 

[NJDad18]

You know, I promise myself I won't get sucked into these debates but here I am....

Yes, parishes need money to run. They, like Disney, do not exist on pixie dust. Yes, to qualify for in-parish tuition rates you need to contribute to the church (IF YOU ARE ABLE). Those donations help cover the cost of those in the school who cannot pay tuition. Not to mention, heating and cooling, lights, maintenance, etc etc etc.

The tuition rates are what they are. The message that the parish is giving me is that since my envelope is not in their basket it's not like I am going to church and therefore not acting as a member of the parish, WRONG. To qualify for the in-parish tuition rates, you need to give $10 per week. We don't give the minimun, we give more. We give $15 per week and we are always there except for the few weeks in the summer. So we give more than our required $520 per year. Last year we gave over $700 to the church, so I pay for my fair share of the cost of the lights and heating. Plus DW, myself and my parents are volunteering at the school all of the time.

It's not that I don't give my money and time. Like I said, magically when I paid more money, I was able to get the in-parish rates. It's all about the money.

 

[RickinNYC]

What's the difference between chastity and celibacy? Entertaining un-chaste thoughts and not acting on them is forbidden? That is a constant struggle for many people, no matter their sexual orientation. So, are new priests that have felt gay but are currently chaste allowed in the priesthood? That's very confusing.

Not sure what point your making or trying to convey? Please read the article I posted for clarification.

 

[momof2inPA]

The tuition rates are what they are. The message that the parish is giving me is that since my envelope is not in their basket it's not like I am going to church and therefore not acting as a member of the parish, WRONG. To qualify for the in-parish tuition rates, you need to give $10 per week. We don't give the minimun, we give more. We give $15 per week and we are always there except for the few weeks in the summer. So we give more than our required $520 per year. Last year we gave over $700 to the church, so I pay for my fair share of the cost of the lights and heating. Plus DW, myself and my parents are volunteering at the school all of the time.

It's not that I don't give my money and time. Like I said, magically when I paid more money, I was able to get the in-parish rates. It's all about the money.

That's actually true at my sister's Catholic Church. The more you give, the more likely your child is to get a kindergarten or pre-school spot.

 

[Fitswimmer]

don't do the rosary while I vaccuum, like Grandma did.

My grandma did that too!! She had a running conversation with Mary her entire day!

Those are the kind of things that I love about being Catholic. The way it appeals to all your senses-the smell of the incense, the sound of the bells and the singing, the feel of the Rosary beads in my hand, the slightly cardboard taste of the wafer.

I like Confession too. I feel all clean and fresh and unburdened afterwards. I always get good advice from my Priest about the things that drag me into sinning.

I'm really thankful for my experience in the Church, when I hear what some others have had to put up with it makes me feel badly for them.

 

[mrsltg]

Really? My kids' Catholic school principal and all the teachers are women. They have more influence over the children's faith formation than just about anyone, to be truthful. They don't set the rules and standards, but they do teach them and stress the ones they think are important.

Same here. In addition, I feel my opion is very valued in my parish regardless of my gender. Granted, I can't be a priest, but I hardly feel "hated" because of that. Actually, in my particular parish, I feel very celebrated because I am a mother and there is a devotion to Mary. Of course, to each his own.

 

[Pigeon]

Really? My kids' Catholic school principal and all the teachers are women. They have more influence over the children's faith formation than just about anyone, to be truthful. They don't set the rules and standards, but they do teach them and stress the ones they think are important.

Yeah, really. I used to watch the way the nuns treated the priests (back in the day when most of the teachers were nuns) and it turned my stomach.

In your particular catholic school the teachers and principal are women. But that's your school. Men can and do get jobs in catholic schools if they have a serious longing to be underpaid.

On the other hand, no matter how much a woman may feel called to the priesthood, she cannot be ordained. That means she can have no real influence in the institutional power structure.

 

[CEDmom]

My DH was a cafeteria Catholic and for a while we belonged to the church near our old house. I'm not Catholic and never felt completely welcome there. Aside from not being able to take communion I have many philosophical differences with the teachings of the church. Our DD also had a very bad experience with CCD. So, we solved the whole issue by joining the Episcopal Church (my religion) when we moved this summer. We're all really happy their. DH hasn't mentioned anything to his family though and I'm sure they're expecting that DD will have her 1st communion next spring. I'll leave that to him to handle.

 

[mrsltg]

My grandma did that too!! She had a running conversation with Mary her entire day!

Those are the kind of things that I love about being Catholic. The way it appeals to all your senses-the smell of the incense, the sound of the bells and the singing, the feel of the Rosary beads in my hand, the slightly cardboard taste of the wafer.

I like Confession too. I feel all clean and fresh and unburdened afterwards. I always get good advice from my Priest about the things that drag me into sinning.

I'm really thankful for my experience in the Church, when I hear what some others have had to put up with it makes me feel badly for them.

I agree with this, also.

Instead of Mary, I have a running conversation with Jesus. I often think he says, "oh, Erin..." in exasperation and laughter. Who knows? I enjoy my faith and it's a huge part of who I am. I love going to mass and I love teaching my dd about things relating to it. Of course, everyone must find their own path. I wish everyone the best in their spirituality. I truly hope that you find comfort in whatever you believe/decide/etc.

 

[momof2inPA]

Not sure what point your making or trying to convey? Please read the article I posted for clarification.

mrsltg already answered my question. It pertained to the fourth paragraph of that article (as quoted) declaring that current gay priests return to chastity. So, if you can at one time be gay and return to chastity, it's ok to be a priest?

mrsltg said the clarification was that to be chaste, one would have had to abstain from acts for a certain amount of time. That seems like an ok rule to me and no different from the requirements for heterosexuals.

I still find the rules pertaining to chastity vs celibacy confusing, though.

 

[RickinNYC]

mrsltg already answered my question. It pertained to the fourth paragraph of that article (as quoted) declaring that current gay priests return to chastity. So, if you can at one time be gay and return to chastity, it's ok to be a priest?

mrsltg said the clarification was that to be chaste, one would have had to abstain from acts for a certain amount of time. That seems like an ok rule to me and no different from the requirements for heterosexuals.

I still find the rules pertaining to chastity vs celibacy confusing, though.

I find the entire concept entirely ridiculous. If a man were gay OR straight, as long as they "keep it in the pants" and perform their duties as a priest, then who gives a ding dong dang whether he is straight or gay.

 

[smartestnumber5]

I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school but an now an atheist. My entire family (except my brother, me, and my dad) are Cafeteria Catholics to different degrees. Honestly, except for nuns, priests, and maybe some teachers, I never met anyone who wasn't a Cafeteria Catholic--I didn't think there was any other kind!

My entire family ignores the birth control stuff and thinks it's stupid. Probably because most couples have--at least during child-bearing years--been solidly working class and another kid would have been impossible. So everyone's done the pill and then had their husband get a vasectomy as soon as they had their two kids. They also think divorce is fine since two members of the family got divorce. Some of them used to object to premarital sex; while they might still personally believe it's wrong, they seem to have given up caring much about it--probably because all of the members of the family under age 36 have been publically known to be having sex without being married (me and cousins by cohabitating w/ our SOs and brother after a dog brought a used condom out from the garbage after his GF would be over and Mom told everyone the story). They never seemed to really be on board with the gay thing either--and I think now even the on the fence ones have given it up since I came out. My mom is also pro-choice and has in fact stopped going to mass because of the abortion stuff and the gay stuff (not just the Church's beliefs, but their messing around in politics--they were in fact the largest funders of an anti-gay marriage, domestic partner, health insurance, etc law in my area). My grandmother is also very against confession and that has trickled down to the rest of the family--not that they're against it, just that they never, ever do it. She says she's against it because "I don't need a priest to be an intermediary. If I want to say I'm sorry for what I did I can talk directly to God" but if you press her enough she'll tell you the stories of what she heard while she worked as a cook in a rectory. She saw priests meeting women for romantic weekend get-a-ways, priests cursing left and right and screaming at the people who work for them--thus she always felt, they're no better than me, why should I confess to them? Also she heard priests talking about the confessions particular people had made a few times--always sex related of course--and that really cemented her anti-confession stance.

Finally, I think most of them would disagree with more of the Church's teaching if only they new what those teachings were! After taking European History class in high school (public school) I finally learned about transubstantiation (after 8 years in Catholic School and Sunday mass) and I surveyed my family about whether they believed that the communion wafer is literally Jesus. Not one of the 14 of them actually knew what transubstantiation was, and only 1 of the 14 said they believed in it. The rest looked at me like I was crazy and said things like "Hello, it's a metaphor."

I think it may have something to do with the fact that my Grandparents are 1st generation Italian and we all heavily identify that way--it's in our food, traditions, the way we talk/yell at each other at family gatherings, and in the religion. So I think even though people have large problems with the Catholic Church--to different degrees depending on the person--they don't really consider changing reigions, because being Catholic is just something else that was handed down to them in their heritage. The things they usually seem to like about it are the community of the church they attend, the attention to Mary and the Saints, that its the religion that almost the entire extended family (all 200+ of em) have, or just that it's what they have always known. Why let a few rules you don't like deter you when its got that much going for it?

 

[mickeyfan2]

On the other hand, no matter how much a woman may feel called to the priesthood, she cannot be ordained. That means she can have no real influence in the institutional power structure.

In the Philly area they recently ordained a female priest and the Vatican sod they will not do anything about it. I for one believe that female and married priest will be common place in the near future in the US. And yes we have many married priests now too. From what I read all were ordained in the Catholic Church, met a women (many were nuns) and left the Church to marry. Most went to the Episcopal church. The Catholic Church invited them back and recognized their marriages and they are now parish priests again.

 

[RickinNYC]

In the Philly area they recently ordained a female priest and the Vatican sod they will not do anything about it. I for one believe that female and married priest will be common place in the near future in the US. And yes we have many married priests now too. From what I read all were ordained in the Catholic Church, met a women (many were nuns) and left the Church to marry. Most went to the Episcopal church. The Catholic Church invited them back and recognized their marriages and they are now parish priests again.

Looks like that particular church is a cafeteria church in and of itself! LOL!

 

[JunieJay]

Of course, celibacy amongst married couples would work. And also, not having sex with multiple partners. Of course, it should also be noted that the efficacy rate of condoms is not 100%, so that's not exactly fool-proof, either.

A lot more fool-proof than going without. And given that this is an epidemic, I think its irresponsible of the Catholic church not to recognize it as such.

 

[mickeyfan2]

Looks like that particular church is a cafeteria church in and of itself! LOL!

The married priest are all over the US not just that particular church (that hs the ordained the women). From what I read both will be more common in the near future, read next pope. The women priest was a test for the Vatican and they let it slide.

 

[sodaseller]

IMO, just about all Catholics are cafeteria Catholics. Rod Dreher's recent epi phanos is illuminating

 

[JennyMominRI]

My biggest concern with promoting NFP lies with women in Africa, where Aids is so prevalent. It just seems like the best moral choice would be to advocate condoms as it pertains to preventing disease, setting aside the issue of birth control.

When I tried to go back to the Catholic church in the early 90's. I was HIV positive,as was my husband...It was believed that the move HIV one was exposed too HIV the sicker one could get..I approached 3 different priests about it..I wanted to use condoms to keep from being exposed to more HIV.. I was told no, just trust in G-d to protect you. When I met Ed, who is HIV neg and I talked to the church about it, I was told that if we married we still were not allowed to use protection..Ed would have to trust in G-d to protect him from HIV..I did have on preist who,while not saying to use condoms,did tell me to use my conscience and that it was between me and G-d..It's taken a while , but I believe that I have heard that the church is now considering letting people who have HIV use condoms...It may not seem to be a big issue to some,but in africa there are many HIV pos kids who are coming of age... They are going to want to marry..This is an issue the church needs to deal with.