BWV - what am I missing?

[_auroraborealis_]

well this sounds like a disaster. Man - does this happen often? Based on this whole walking business does that not make it difficult to get a room practically anywhere? Generally we travel late January - not sure if that will make a difference. We do always try to go at lower season. But man - this is a whole new revelation.

Walking primarily happens in a handful of unit types - right now, they are BWV Studio/2BR Standard, BLT Standard Studio/2BR, AKV Value, AKV Club, CCV Studios for most of fall and any holiday weekends/runDisney events. A lot of us expect it will be a factor with RIV Tower Studios and Standard Studios, but time will tell on that.

Late January is still pretty busy recently. I also caution people with children not to count on a date within the core school year to be stable as a general time period of travel for 20 years, because activities are a beast, as are school calendars as requirements as kids age. My son is only in middle school, but missing a week of honors math would not be okay or easy to make up.

 

[Mumof4mice]

Have you considered PVB as a home resort? PVB resales are around $130-150pp, with a 2066 expiry. The studios there are some of the biggest DVC studios. And if you don't fancy walking, I have never had a problem booking a standard view PVB studio (by far the easiest compared to BLT, VGF and CCV), possibly because many owners trade out regularly when they want bigger units.

The location and overall travel logistics make PVB a great "back up resort". Book PVB at 11 months, if you manage to switch to an Epcot area resort, great! If not it's still very convenient to Epcot via the monorail.

 

[RanDIZ]

I just recently became a DVC member through resale at AKL. I really love the location of BWV and considered it, but after reading how hard it is to get Studios and an older outdated resort, I opted for AKL. I only travel in Dec when it’s very DVC busy and overall busy with holidays. My 2 days I spend at EP n HS wasn’t enough to justify BWV. AKL is like a vacation in itself so I don’t mind staying a whole wk there or even split staying if needed. I was also concerned that if I wanted to unload it, the value in 5-10 yrs might not be good with less time left on contract of 2042. Guess only time will tell.

 

[Arthur2990]

We're getting a little closer to honing in on a resort / contract that will work really well for us. Foregoing direct RIV purchase because of the resale restrictions.

Talk to me about Board Walk Villas. I'm looking at this resale and it seems like it might hit all the right marks for us, but am I missing some piece of wisdom that you guys know about that I don't?

Pros:
Proximity to parks - LOVE the walking distance to Epcot and HS - plus gondola access in the event that service will be extended in the future
Refurbished rooms - from what I'm seeing all the rooms have been refurbished and look really fresh and clean
Low points per stay - I was actually really surprised to see how low the points per stay is that this resort 78 points for a studio during our preferred travel time - what?!?!
Studio sleeps five - we are a family of 5 so that's a must.
Decent price per point on the resale market
Fun pool area for the kids

Cons:
New restrictions mean we cannot stay at any of the new resorts
Shorter contract expiring in 22 years - can't decide if this is actually a PRO or a CON - maybe not being locked in for 50 years might be an okay place to start?

SO - I'm throwing it out to you guys - what am I not considering here? Is there some secret that I'm not factoring in? Is it SUPER hard to book into this resort because of everything I've mentioned above? Anything I should know? Thanks so much

I agree with all your Pros. The point charts and location is primary reason we purchased into BWV. We can stay for less points. Less points means a smaller buy in. Buy where you want to stay!!

As far as your cons. I was looking to save money as a new DVC member, so we went with resale as the 'Extras' direct points get you didn't see to have much value to me.
At my age i will be in my lates 60s when the contract ends so 2042 does not mean that much.
Resale to legacy 14 vs Resale on new resort and only being able to stay at that one. That is a no brainier to me. Aulani and Grand Flo are nice enough for me.

 

[mustinjourney]

Have you stayed at BWV yet? You might want to before you buy in.

My wife thought she would love AKV, so we bought a contract, but after our first stay there she wasn't a fan, and we haven't stayed since.

you changed your avatar! It's really messing me up.

 

[mustinjourney]

For people worrying about resale restrictions, I'd keep in mind that BWV comes with its own built in resale restrictions, mainly diminishing years on the contract. In 10 years, BWV will be down to a dozen years left and though it will still have value, it is difficult to see it selling for anything near what the newer resale restricted resorts with 40-50 years left on the contracts will sell for. Personally, I think probably way too much emphasis is placed on the effects of resale restrictions in the near term rather than looking down the road a bit.

this is so true. It cracks me up how many people worry about resale value of RIV when we know for a fact that 2042 resorts will be at zero in 22 years.

 

[mustinjourney]

PS - Take the venom you read on this board with a grain of salt, no doubt some are trying to spew as much negativity as possible at RIV in order to turn enough heads away that maybe disney will change their restiction plan. But honestly, there is no chance they change. They are not going to let a resale buyer at Saratoga stay at all the future luxury DVC resorts they plan to build in the future, and I get it, if I owned the business I would do the same. It hurts as a customer, but, sometimes you just need to move on. You dont want to regret passing on RIV at this price level, if history is any guide, this thing will be 250 a point 2 years from now.

this is so true. I'm really of the opinion that the vast majority of the negativity for RIV purchasers is akin to protesters being angry at workers that cross the picket line. But each person has to do what they think is right for their family/situation.

Admittedly, I am torn. When they announced the building of RIV and the skyliner, I was ready to sign on the dotted line. Then they announced the resale restrictions (not to mention the other shenanigans from last year), and I was quite angry/frustrated with Disney as a company.

I was one of those people hoping that sales would be horrible, so that Disney would be forced to rethink their position on the resale restrictions...

But then I started looking at the incentives for direct, and at $170 -- it didn't seem so bad anymore (considering I had paid $165 for BCV 2 years prior). Even if resale settles in at $125 a point in the next year or so, a $45 spread is not any different than buying any of the other resorts direct vs resale...so if AP discount with the blue card is valuable to someone, then I think RIV makes a lot of sense.

I still think Disney screwed this up -- I have no doubt they could have started the pricing at $195 and probably sold more than they did at $188 with the restrictions. Pure conjecture at this point -- but that's my gut feeling.

 

[Matty B13]

you changed your avatar! It's really messing me up.

Had to once the Mandalorian came out!!! It was one of the big reasons we signed up for Disney+.

 

[DVC BLT]

I still think Disney screwed this up -- I have no doubt they could have started the pricing at $195 and probably sold more than they did at $188 with the restrictions. Pure conjecture at this point -- but that's my gut feeling.

Your not wrong about the $195 and selling more than at 188 with restrictions. But this restriction plan is a long term play. I dont think they knew what they had when they were selling these timeshares in the early years. The high end market is where the margins are and if they are going to go up-scale, they cant let those resorts get hammered at the 7th month mark with those resale points from legacy resorts. I think the long game is where the margin is.

I also have a gut feeling that they think they can continually sell some of these new luxury resorts starting with RIV. The idea would be to keep the resale price as low as they can and exercising the ROFR to resell to new buyers. This is a little different than the current strategy which is to sell out a resort and move on to the next resort. Under this new strategy, they could continually sell a resort forever and continue to make margins.

The reason I have this gut feeling is that they are running out of property that has great access to parks, in essence they need to get to 2042 to start rebuilding some of these great locations. I would think its best to take the next few properties and turn them into constantly selling resorts. The key to this business plan is to be able buy points with enough spread from the direct selling price. I would think the restrictions really help with this. This is just a guess and is something I would do if I were running the business, but who knows what their actual plan is. My gut tells me I would not be happy seeing people making money on the secondary market when I can devise a way to keep it in my own P&L. I just dont see why I would want to sell a resort out and then move on if I can devise a way to continually sell it. Again, the key is the spread between ROFR acquisition price and the direct sale price.

Again, pure conjecture.

Anyway - i'm drinking the coolaide all the way to happy town !

Lets hit Bar Riva !!

 

[DVC BLT]

By the way, if my previous post is true, they would need to keep the condition of the resort top notch. This plays well into the crowd that wants to be forever owners. However, sellers will certainly take a larger hit under this new setup than the older beloved program where there really wasn't much of a difference between direct and resale...

 

[Bing Showei]

By the way, if my previous post is true, they would need to keep the condition of the resort top notch. This plays well into the crowd that wants to be forever owners. However, sellers will certainly take a larger hit under this new setup than the older beloved program where there really wasn't much of a difference between direct and resale...

Or they could let the resort age as they do all their other properties (as history has proven), continue to raise prices (as history has proven), continue with increasing restrictions (as history has proven), and people will line up around the block to pay for it (as history has proven).

It's wishful thinking that Disney is targeting the "high end market" with Riviera. What they're doing is pushing the envelope to find out what people are willing to pay for a Disney timeshare.

I agree they didn't price the product correctly out the gate and we see them correcting that now (Riviera charts/annual dues will be par for the course), but it's a lot of wishful thinking to equate new higher prices with future better service.

Every owner is a "forever owner" until they're not.

 

[DVC BLT]

Or they could let the resort age as they do all their other properties (as history has proven), continue to raise prices (as history has proven), continue with increasing restrictions (as history has proven), and people will line up around the block to pay for it (as history has proven).

It's wishful thinking that Disney is targeting the "high end market" with Riviera. What they're doing is pushing the envelope to find out what people are willing to pay for a Disney timeshare.

I agree they didn't price the product correctly out the gate and we see them correcting that now (Riviera charts/annual dues will be par for the course), but it's a lot of wishful thinking to equate new higher prices with future better service.

Every owner is a "forever owner" until they're not.

Awe dont worry, everything is going to be ok : )

My post was a what if based on a major change in behavior, which was to attack the resale market. I'm trying to tie that to a future behavior opposite of what history has proven...

 

[Arthur2990]

By the way, if my previous post is true, they would need to keep the condition of the resort top notch. This plays well into the crowd that wants to be forever owners. However, sellers will certainly take a larger hit under this new setup than the older beloved program where there really wasn't much of a difference between direct and resale...

This makes me if these policies in the long term will get DVC a reputation of the Timeshare market? I know only time will tell.

I am just happy that I am part of 1.0 Vacation Club.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

Be careful what you wish for.

Refurbs are paid for with cap reserves, which are funded by dues. Never have Disney funded refurbs from developer profit, and I seriously would never expect them to start.

Faster refurb cycle? Watch your dues rise.

 

[Bing Showei]

Awe dont worry, everything is going to be ok : )

My post was a what if based on a major change in behavior, which was to attack the resale market. I'm trying to tie that to a future behavior opposite of what history has proven...

Gee, thanks for the comforting words!

More comforting for me though (especially as a shareholder), is that Disney isn’t actually damaging the product the way I thought they were initially. Thanks to folks like you, willing to buy in despite acknowledging that Disney is making a product that is less owner friendly, Disney has proven they know what they’re doing and has indeed left money on the table in the past.

Hopefully resale prices for Riviera stay high enough that it doesn’t scare off future direct buyers at other resale-restricted resorts. High Riviera resale prices would be a win for everyone. With Riviera as an unqualified success, more resorts will continue to be built into the system, and I can wait until the perfect one for me finally comes along, trying out shiny new places along the way.

Thanks again! : )

 

[DougEMG]

*Basically I divided the cost of a purchased point by the years left on a contract, then added the dues.

While this is indeed a simple method for calculating the annual costs at a resort, this gives completely incorrect numbers. It is not accounting for the time value of money. The points in the future have less value than the points right now. If you give someone $1 today, would you be happy if they gave you that same dollar back 50 years from now.

Let's look at a simple example. Resort sells for $200 and has 50 years on the contract. $200/50 = $4. So would someone pay $4 for a point that they can't use for 50 years? Most people would not and this was born out by what happened at OKW. In 2007, OKW owners were offer an extra 15 years on their contracts for $15/point, or $1/point/year. While that sounds nice, the points would not be available for 35 years. Less than 20% of owners purchased the extension and resale value of extended contracts were only about $7 above none extended contracts.

This method is perfectly fine as a ball park to do that when comparing resorts with similar expiry dates, but it really distorts the perceived value of those resorts with long expiry dates when compared against resorts with short expiry dates.

 

[DougEMG]

this is so true. It cracks me up how many people worry about resale value of RIV when we know for a fact that 2042 resorts will be at zero in 22 years.

Give the number of contracts on the resale market and how many sell every year, there are a significant number of people that sell before a resort expires, so resale value is important.

Comparing a 2042 resort resale value to RIV's resale value in 2042 is simple. One is $0 and the other is greater than $0. That's the easy one. But how about BCV villa in 5 years compared to RIV in 5 years. There we have purchase price, MF and resale price all combining to see which makes more sense to own.

 

[DougEMG]

Awe dont worry, everything is going to be ok : )

My post was a what if based on a major change in behavior, which was to attack the resale market. I'm trying to tie that to a future behavior opposite of what history has proven...

As long as resale owners can book at their home resort, any plan to drive resale prices down is going to fall because value buyers will step in and bump up the price so that it passes ROFR as long as it is still a better value than booking cash.

 

[DebbieB]

this is so true. It cracks me up how many people worry about resale value of RIV when we know for a fact that 2042 resorts will be at zero in 22 years.

The thing that concerns me about RIV is not the long term but if something would come up and you need to sell soon. There were resales sold at a big loss before it even opened, which means it was never used. I bought BWV in 1999 and it helped my decision to buy knowing I could get close to my money back if I had to sell. At this point, I’ve used it so many times if it was worthless, I wouldn’t care, I got my monies worth and then some.

As far as condition, I don’t have a problem with it. I’ve never been picky about theme, paint colors etc. as long as they don’t take away my boardwalk view, I’m happy.

 

[Princess Merida]

We own at BWV and are thrilled with our contract. BCV AKV and VGF are others we enjoy and will probably add on at either AKV and VGF at a later time. BCV is amazing for the pool, but I will say staying there I miss the BWV views during my morning coffee time. Booking a std studio can be difficult, but not impossible. I just booked one for December 19-23 and didn't have to walk it. I tried to at first, but forgot to move my dates and lost it lol. It was my first walk attempt. We prefer Boardwalk view, but I'm short on points so needed standard for this trip. We've done all of the views and the Garden/Pool view isn't a bad view either. We just put in a request for either Luna Park pool view or Village Green view. Booking 11 months out you shouldn't be locked out of your resort studios. Pool/garden view is usually available for quite a bit passed the 11 month mark, even at busy times. As far as wear on the hotel, we don't feel like it seems worn down. We love the rooms. Of course VGF and PVB rooms can't really be beat imho, but BWV rooms are quite nice. I've not stayed at RIV, but we did visit. The lobby is very small and the resort is just not for us (resale restrictions, high points, not comparable to VGF idk where that came from), but I'm sure the rooms are beautiful and the skyliner is awesome. 150 points can get you a long way at BWV. If the contract end date doesn't bother you and you are either flexible with travel dates or willing to work to get what you need I think the contract may suit you. However, I do agree with others that you should stay before you buy. Just because it's my favorite cup of tea doesn't mean it will be yours. Good luck to you on your decision!!!