Buyers/Sellers BEWARE!!!

Bing Showei

DIS Veteran
DVC Gold
Joined
Sep 10, 2017
I have said this before, but when I sell real estate, my listing price is a fair price, and I don't want to deal with negotiations. The sticker price is the price, if you want to negotiate lower, find someone else's real estate. So if you bid on my contract, the broker may not contact me at all because they know I'll come back to them with no, but I might not get to looking at it for a bit because my answer is going to be no and the reason for a no negotiations policy is I don't want to bother. If the broker needs to present all fair offers to me legally, they'll have do their duty. If my contract doesn't sell in a reasonable time frame at the price I've set, I'll lower the price. But I'm not negotiating.
That’s fine. Broker just has to say “Seller isn’t flexible on this one.” Done. Everyone moves on. We’ve all heard and we don’t complain. It is what it is.

Instead this particular broker is simply pigeonholing all offers into a non-standard format that bucks convention forcing closing costs and dues to all be folded into $/pt.
Many people don't seem to get that the bottom line is just that. If a seller wants $15K for a 100-point contract, does it really matter whether they get it in the form of $130/pp plus $2K dues or they get $150 without dues reimbursed? Either way, they get $15K.

In fact, I think factoring dues into the per point price rather than charging it separately could theoretically work better for everyone.
Agreed. If this were the standard across the board at every resale broker site (total price inclusive of all costs/credits), then yes, I agree this would be the best.

But the problem is that NO ONE in the resale landscape, beside Mark and Lori, tell the buyer to deduct closing costs, and dues from the $/pt offer price vs. separating that out. This creates the perception of a discrepancy between offer and fair market value that does not exist.

I’ll go back again to the dues. @SherylLC mentioned Lori is going to transition to that not being paid by buyer as the default “next month.” Next month is in 3 days. That is completely arbitrary and something that should be settled between the buyer and the seller, not when the broker decides the time is right.
 

KAT4DISNEY

Glad to be a test subject
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
That’s fine. Broker just has to say “Seller isn’t flexible on this one.” Done. Everyone moves on. We’ve all heard and we don’t complain. It is what it is.

Instead this particular broker is simply pigeonholing all offers into a non-standard format that bucks convention forcing closing costs and dues to all be folded into $/pt.

Agreed. If this were the standard across the board at every resale broker site (total price inclusive of all costs/credits), then yes, I agree this would be the best.

But the problem is that NO ONE in the resale landscape, beside Mark and Lori, tell the buyer to deduct closing costs, and dues from the $/pt offer price vs. separating that out. This creates the perception of a discrepancy between offer and fair market value that does not exist.

I’ll go back again to the dues. @SherylLC mentioned Lori is going to transition to that not being paid by buyer as the default “next month.” Next month is in 3 days. That is completely arbitrary and something that should be settled between the buyer and the seller, not when the broker decides the time is right.
There's been many reports over the years from pretty much all the brokers of not submitting offers based on nothing more than "it won't pass ROFR", "others are paying much higher" or "the seller already turned down an offer at that" and no specific directive to not submit offers. And yes, other brokers have stated the "if you get the points then you pay the dues" and won't submit offers that don't do that. You might be surprised that it will change with the same agent over time or just person to person. My personal worst in trying to get an offer submitted came from dvcstore.com so I don't buy into the whole "they are the only ones" because they aren't.
 

Bing Showei

DIS Veteran
DVC Gold
Joined
Sep 10, 2017
There's been many reports over the years from pretty much all the brokers of not submitting offers based on nothing more than "it won't pass ROFR", "others are paying much higher" or "the seller already turned down an offer at that" and no specific directive to not submit offers. And yes, other brokers have stated the "if you get the points then you pay the dues" and won't submit offers that don't do that. You might be surprised that it will change with the same agent over time or just person to person. My personal worst in trying to get an offer submitted came from dvcstore.com so I don't buy into the whole "they are the only ones" because they aren't.
You kind of made my point for me.

If they were to say any of the various examples you offer up as having happened historically, that would still be different than what they are saying to buyers, which is not "it won't pass ROFR" or "others are paying much higher", what they are saying is "deduct the dues from the $/pt offer," and "deduct closing costs from $/pt offer."

Point me to an example anywhere on these boards historically where the broker was so fixed on keeping the offer format exactly as they lay out, $X paid for closing, $Y paid for dues, "you fill in the $Z for offer price per point to make up for $X and $Y if you don't want to pay those." Because I've never seen that. And that was the actual point I was making.
 
  • crisi

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Feb 25, 2002
    That’s fine. Broker just has to say “Seller isn’t flexible on this one.” Done. Everyone moves on. We’ve all heard and we don’t complain. It is what it is.

    Instead this particular broker is simply pigeonholing all offers into a non-standard format that bucks convention forcing closing costs and dues to all be folded into $/pt.
    Yes, I'm not responding to this specific offer, but instead to the ideas that all offers should be presented. There are plenty of cases where offers shouldn't be presented, and honestly, you as the buyer don't have any rights to the rationale at all - that's between the broker and the seller on what offers should be presented. If the broker is pigeonholing offers because anything that deviates from the standard is harder to write up, that's between the broker and the seller, if the seller isn't seeing offers due to this, that's between the broker and the seller. They are only going to pigeonhole if they think they will be able to fairly quickly sell the contract as listed, and the extra work isn't worth the effort because they'll sell it as written in a week or two. If the seller is onboard with "we should only take standard offers because they will be easier to get through ROFR and close on" then the seller got sold that. Brokers aren't going to turn down "free money" - this arrangement has a cost either to the broker or to the seller they are not willing to take.
     

    Lorana

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jan 30, 2001
    Yes, I'm not responding to this specific offer, but instead to the ideas that all offers should be presented. There are plenty of cases where offers shouldn't be presented, and honestly, you as the buyer don't have any rights to the rationale at all - that's between the broker and the seller on what offers should be presented. If the broker is pigeonholing offers because anything that deviates from the standard is harder to write up, that's between the broker and the seller, if the seller isn't seeing offers due to this, that's between the broker and the seller. They are only going to pigeonhole if they think they will be able to fairly quickly sell the contract as listed, and the extra work isn't worth the effort because they'll sell it as written in a week or two. If the seller is onboard with "we should only take standard offers because they will be easier to get through ROFR and close on" then the seller got sold that. Brokers aren't going to turn down "free money" - this arrangement has a cost either to the broker or to the seller they are not willing to take.
    But how would the seller even know they are not seeing offers? That's part of my point about the influence brokers have. If brokers aren't presenting offers (where the seller hasn't given direction to only receive offers of a certain price point), then the seller has no way of knowing. It makes it hard for it to be "between the seller and the broker" in that scenario. And it is absolutely in the broker's best interest to keep prices high, and it is more valuable to them to hold out for someone willing to pay a higher price than to present a lower offer to the buyer.

    I'm not saying all brokers are doing this. It's pretty clear to me that agents I've worked with at www.fidelityresales.com, www.resalesbydvc.com, and www.*************.com presented my offers, but it's also clear to me that other brokers I've dealt with have withheld offers - one, yes, because they told me that the sellers didn't want to see a price below X, but several have said "we won't present that price because we'll buy it ourselves for that price" and "it won't pass ROFR, so we won't present it unless you bid higher" and "other contracts are priced higher per point." Note, by the way, that the broker who wouldn't present an offer based on "we'd buy it for that price" and the one "it won't pass ROFR," I did manage to make an offer for the price point I wanted and got it accepted at another broker AND it passed ROFR.
     

    Bing Showei

    DIS Veteran
    DVC Gold
    Joined
    Sep 10, 2017
    Yes, I'm not responding to this specific offer, but instead to the ideas that all offers should be presented. There are plenty of cases where offers shouldn't be presented, and honestly, you as the buyer don't have any rights to the rationale at all - that's between the broker and the seller on what offers should be presented. If the broker is pigeonholing offers because anything that deviates from the standard is harder to write up, that's between the broker and the seller, if the seller isn't seeing offers due to this, that's between the broker and the seller. They are only going to pigeonhole if they think they will be able to fairly quickly sell the contract as listed, and the extra work isn't worth the effort because they'll sell it as written in a week or two. If the seller is onboard with "we should only take standard offers because they will be easier to get through ROFR and close on" then the seller got sold that. Brokers aren't going to turn down "free money" - this arrangement has a cost either to the broker or to the seller they are not willing to take.
    No argument here otherwise. Legal, fiduciary duties notwithstanding, I have no illusions of agents actually acting as "transaction brokers" as it pertains to these resale contracts, but it doesn't change the fact that those legal obligations exist.

    What boggles my mind is using the model they put out, a lower $/pt offer, if accepted, would actually cost the broker more money in lost commission.
     

    KAT4DISNEY

    Glad to be a test subject
    Joined
    Mar 17, 2008
    You kind of made my point for me.

    If they were to say any of the various examples you offer up as having happened historically, that would still be different than what they are saying to buyers, which is not "it won't pass ROFR" or "others are paying much higher", what they are saying is "deduct the dues from the $/pt offer," and "deduct closing costs from $/pt offer."

    Point me to an example anywhere on these boards historically where the broker was so fixed on keeping the offer format exactly as they lay out, $X paid for closing, $Y paid for dues, "you fill in the $Z for offer price per point to make up for $X and $Y if you don't want to pay those." Because I've never seen that. And that was the actual point I was making.
    No, the reasons were different but it still was talking a buyer out of a particular offer or even not presenting it because of their own decision it shouldn't be done. Others would not accept offers with no dues reimbursement so your supposition is incorrect from my own personal experience as well as other reports over the years. And this is difficult to believe but I am have also experienced the change in what will and won't be given in an offer from the same agent so even if your experiences are one way I would not doubt it can be different for others.

    I have not tried not reimbursing dues with them so I do not know specifically what they are stating.
     

    Noles235

    BLT & SSR Owner
    DVC Gold
    Joined
    Jul 9, 2019
    I have my own short www.dvcsales.com story. I did like their system and how easy it was to make an offer directly to the sellers. I made a couple of offers on two listings, about $15 below listing prices, nothing unreasonable in my opinion. I've done this with other brokers and it's been no problem. The next day I tried to login only to see my account was "locked."

    They didn't cite why, but I think it's because in their eyes I was low balling. It is what it is, so I moved on and found a great deal with another broker.
    My account got locked out also after two
    A few months back I tried to put in an offer for a small VGF contract.

    After entering the price pp, the system immediately comes back saying that it’s below what the seller is willing to accept and that was within $10 of the asking.

    it seems that the sellers are able to put in a price pp and if a buyers offers below that it’s immediately auto declined.

    I also hit the road block about dues and closing costs and the explanation I got was that, that’s the way they are “doing” their business
    I got locked out on a contract like that. Now I know not to use them.
     

    Bing Showei

    DIS Veteran
    DVC Gold
    Joined
    Sep 10, 2017
    No, the reasons were different but it still was talking a buyer out of a particular offer or even not presenting it because of their own decision it shouldn't be done. Others would not accept offers with no dues reimbursement so your supposition is incorrect from my own personal experience as well as other reports over the years. And this is difficult to believe but I am have also experienced the change in what will and won't be given in an offer from the same agent so even if your experiences are one way I would not doubt it can be different for others.

    I have not tried not reimbursing dues with them so I do not know specifically what they are stating.
    Suppose that it's March 2021 you found a reasonably priced $107 VWL AUG UY contract you like. The points for 2020 are there, but approaching the banking deadline. You know closing won't be done in time, so those points, if the offer is accepted, will have to be banked into the 2021 UY.

    Those points, have less value as they will have only 12 months worth of use, of which you've lost 8 of 12 months of potential 11-month bookings. You also missed being able to book that studio you always get for your favorite Christmas time visits, which is why you own VWL.

    How would you factor that into the asking price? What every other broker I've interacted with has allowed is for me to simply not refund the seller for 2020 dues, but pay their $107 asking price.

    This is impossible with Mark and Lori.

    You are told to deduct the dues for 2020 points because Lori has arbitrarily decided that 2020 dues should still be paid at this point for this UY. You'll just need to just knock it off the offer. So despite willing to offer asking for the contract, you are now being told to offer $99/point to make up for 2020 points that are of little value to you.

    I have no problems with a broker trying to dissuade me from making an offer for whatever reason. But this is not that. And this is unique to www.dvcsales.com.
     

    Grumpy by Birth

    “I AM smiling.”
    Joined
    May 27, 2017
    Those points, have less value as they will have only 12 months worth of use, of which you've lost 8 of 12 months of potential 11-month bookings. You also missed being able to book that studio you always get for your favorite Christmas time visits, which is why you own VWL.
    I'd agree that points theoretically have somewhat less value when considering that part of their value is the 11-month booking advantage. And for some resorts and room types (for example, the one you cited), that may be a bigger factor. For others, however, you may have no problem getting what you wanted with those banked points (maybe you know you don't even need them until next year). Then those points had the same spending power as "fresher" points with more "shelf life." You still redeemed them for the same number of nights in the same room. In that case, did they actually lose any value?
     

    Bing Showei

    DIS Veteran
    DVC Gold
    Joined
    Sep 10, 2017
    I have no problems with a broker trying to dissuade me from making an offer for whatever reason. But this is not that. And this is unique to www.dvcsales.com.
    @KAT4DISNEY Ugh. I just re-read what I wrote and I’m starting to get your point. They are essentially doing the same thing, dissuading me from making an offer not paying dues by making a low ball offer. They’re just using their offer model to do it.

    I guess I would just rather have someone dump me to my face, rather than just ghost me. Net result is the same, I suppose.
     

    Cupcake232

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Feb 1, 2020
    That’s fine. Broker just has to say “Seller isn’t flexible on this one.” Done. Everyone moves on. We’ve all heard and we don’t complain. It is what it is.

    Instead this particular broker is simply pigeonholing all offers into a non-standard format that bucks convention forcing closing costs and dues to all be folded into $/pt.

    Agreed. If this were the standard across the board at every resale broker site (total price inclusive of all costs/credits), then yes, I agree this would be the best.

    But the problem is that NO ONE in the resale landscape, beside Mark and Lori, tell the buyer to deduct closing costs, and dues from the $/pt offer price vs. separating that out. This creates the perception of a discrepancy between offer and fair market value that does not exist.

    I’ll go back again to the dues. @SherylLC mentioned Lori is going to transition to that not being paid by buyer as the default “next month.” Next month is in 3 days. That is completely arbitrary and something that should be settled between the buyer and the seller, not when the broker decides the time is right.
    👏👏👏👏👏👏
     

    WestCoastDVC

    Earning My Ears
    Joined
    Jul 3, 2020
    I know this is a side note but could someone point me to the rules around posting broker links and what is allowed/prohibited or “filtered.” It has always confused me on this board. :)
     

    striker1064

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jan 17, 2018
    But how would the seller even know they are not seeing offers?
    If we're talking about www.dvcsales.com specifically, the seller is able to set a price range, and any offers below that range are automatically kicked out.

    Personally, as a seller, I loved this. I got to set my minimum price and I didn't see a single offer I knew I wouldn't take. That's how I knew I wasn't seeing offers - because I told the broker via their automated system that I didn't want them.

    And for the record, I ended up selling my contract for more money on www.dvcresalemarket.com because buyers wanted to play games with dues, closing, etc. That's fine, I played and took my money, but my dirty little secret is I would have taken less, and the straightforward system at www.dvcsales.com would have told them that clearly.
     

    Cupcake232

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Feb 1, 2020
    So I’ve read this entire thread and many others over the last few months and am wondering if someone can point me to a list of reputable brokers? I’ll be purchasing our first contract in the coming months and right now I’m sort of overwhelmed by all the sites. I don’t know what the rules are here for posting so I won’t bother listing any companies or URLs, but I’d appreciate any input. Thanks all!
    I’ve bought two contracts from Andy Berry at https://www.dvcresalemarket.com/ and he has been amazing! He is always there for questions and extremely knowledgeable in all things DVC! You wouldn’t be sorry going with the company he works for and the level of professionalism he shows!
     
    Last edited:

    DebbieB

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Aug 24, 1999
    I’ve seen ads on the https://www.dvcresalemarket.com/ app with the wording “only a full price offer including closing costs will be accepted”. I saw one for VGC that I thought was $10-$15 high. It sat awhile and was relisted a little lower. Don’t know the final outcome.
     

    Grumpy by Birth

    “I AM smiling.”
    Joined
    May 27, 2017

    CarolMN

    DVC Co-Moderator
    Moderator
    Joined
    Aug 18, 1999
    I know this is a side note but could someone point me to the rules around posting broker links and what is allowed/prohibited or “filtered.” It has always confused me on this board. :)
    This thread is pinned near the top of each of the four DVC discussion forums:
    A word about DIS advertisers - Please post a link to any business you wish to mention

    The DISboards.com Guidelines says this about filtered words, names and URLs:
    " The DIS is a privately owned web site and we reserve the right to restrict any outside commercial ventures at our discretion. We will not discuss the reasons behind why specific websites are filtered and any discussion regarding the word filter may be deleted. If you have questions or comments about this or any other DISboards policy, you can address with the webmasters at admin@wdwinfo.com."
     

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