Buyer Beware- members are losing points over the COVID-19 situation

[nagshead]

I'm not worried I will be compensated for my lost points one way or another. Any lawyer knows you try and build a contract so it is your choice what to do; that is far from pointing to a contract and saying I don't have to do anything so that is what I am doing. We have no obligation to our customers on warranty all the time and still do it because our customers matter to us.

Like someone else said, if I lose a year and half worth of points, it blows up my value. I'm focusing on getting through this and I am certain dvc, like the rest of disney, will do the right thing. People on here seem to forget that points are just that: a made up thing that represents money/accommodations. This isn't PhD level financial engineering to figure out appropriate compensation and I understand disney waiting to see how many are impacted before a final decision is made. Dvc members are the most loyal disney patrons there are, to treat them far worse than a random guest who gets a full refund just makes no sense. These threads are filled with the same people over and over just stating why nothing will happen but they have never run a business before and spend all day on here pontificating about nonsense that doesn't even affect them. They talk about dvc contracts like it was carved into tablets by the hand of god himself lol. It's a piece of paper with words; I can squash a spider if I want but I choose not to and I instead catch them and place them outside my house.

Compensation is no more a legal question for dvc than it is for any other faction of disney refunding guests that take a trip to Disney once every 5-10 years or less. The shocking thing is how mean spirited people are on here but again it's people who don't understand business or finance, so I say those who are "losing points" just stay patient and don't let these people ruin your day.

Good luck to everyone through this whole situation let's hope things continue to improve.

well said.

 

[Chuck S]

If I recall correctly @Dean used to surmise that the loss of one years worth of points likely negated any financial benefits of DVC. I haven't done analysis myself and he apparently has stopped posting on the DIS but it certainly doesn't help. And what doesn't help is that it is that the "price" of the pandemic is being placed on the shoulders of a few.

Well, that certainly isn't true for me. If I were to lose 345 points (my annual allotment) for a year, I'd still be money ahead...a LOT of money ahead. I figure since 1992, I've treated family and friend for about 54 weeks at OKW. I paid an average of $53.50 per point or $1.10 per year plus dues. 2020 dues total is roughly $2,700 plus ~$380per year for points, so it would be a total loss of $3,080. I know I've saved a LOT more than that over the years. Considering prior to buying OKW, we paid over $2000 a week for a tower room in 1991 at the Contemporary, yep, a lot more than that. Imagine what deluxe standard rooms cost now.

 

[ELMC]

I'm not worried I will be compensated for my lost points one way or another. Any lawyer knows you try and build a contract so it is your choice what to do; that is far from pointing to a contract and saying I don't have to do anything so that is what I am doing. We have no obligation to our customers on warranty all the time and still do it because our customers matter to us.

Like someone else said, if I lose a year and half worth of points, it blows up my value. I'm focusing on getting through this and I am certain dvc, like the rest of disney, will do the right thing. People on here seem to forget that points are just that: a made up thing that represents money/accommodations. This isn't PhD level financial engineering to figure out appropriate compensation and I understand disney waiting to see how many are impacted before a final decision is made. Dvc members are the most loyal disney patrons there are, to treat them far worse than a random guest who gets a full refund just makes no sense. These threads are filled with the same people over and over just stating why nothing will happen but they have never run a business before and spend all day on here pontificating about nonsense that doesn't even affect them. They talk about dvc contracts like it was carved into tablets by the hand of god himself lol. It's a piece of paper with words; I can squash a spider if I want but I choose not to and I instead catch them and place them outside my house.

Compensation is no more a legal question for dvc than it is for any other faction of disney refunding guests that take a trip to Disney once every 5-10 years or less. The shocking thing is how mean spirited people are on here but again it's people who don't understand business or finance, so I say those who are "losing points" just stay patient and don't let these people ruin your day.

Good luck to everyone through this whole situation let's hope things continue to improve.

I like your optimism but at the same time I have a hard time getting on board. Even if they have the best of intentions, history has shown that DVC's decisions are not always in the best interest of the owners. I have to look no further than the 2020 points reallocation debacle for support of this thought. That's about as optimistic as I can be. Now to be a pessimist, I see points getting lost for good and two real reasons for that. The first is that unlike cash guests who have to be recruited to come to Disney, we as owners are guaranteed on the hook for the next 20+ years. Simply put, they don't have to do anything to make us happy. Secondly, they have taken, and likely will continue to take, the stance that by letting these points expire unused they are actually doing a service to the membership as a whole.

Take a look at the recovery offer sent to guests who had reservations canceled. Free dining on a full rack rate room and you have to buy tickets as well. Gee, what a great offer. For Annual Passholders it is a non-starter. But it's the offer that checks many boxes for Disney as it drives revenue to hotels, parks, and restaurants all at the same time, so it's what they offered. Net/net it costs them nothing. With regardsd to DVC owners, there are few (if any) ways for DVC to compensate owners for their points that isn't a concrete loss of cash for them, even if it is just in the form of interdepartmental billing. I'm not so sure I see them doing this.

Well, that certainly isn't true for me. If I were to lose 345 points (my annual allotment) for a year, I'd still be money ahead...a LOT of money ahead. I figure since 1992, I've treated family and friend for about 54 weeks at OKW. I paid an average of $53.50 per point or $1.10 per year plus dues. 2020 dues total is roughly $2,700 plus ~$380per year for points, so it would be a total loss of $3,080. I know I've saved a LOT more than that over the years. Considering prior to buying OKW, we paid over $2000 a week for a tower room in 1991 at the Contemporary, yep, a lot more than that. Imagine what deluxe standard rooms cost now.

I think it is true for you, but it's not true for your friends and family! From the sound of it you are already "losing" money on DVC.

 

[Chuck S]

I think it is true for you, but it's not true for your friends and family! From the sound of it you are already "losing" money on DVC.

Not really, they often share their cruise cabins and other vacations with me.

 

[Aussie RJ]

Take a look at the recovery offer sent to guests who had reservations canceled

Not a great offer, I agree. However, surely this falls in line with the thought that DVC can't provide members with any real response until they know the full impact. I would hope that this is an interim offer.. The parks may not be open for another 6 months according to health experts.

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

I am thinking about this a lot now. For me one of the great advantages was using 'points' and not money. I enjoyed the trips far more not seeing my bank account go down, or credit card balance go up the price of the room. I joined the board to see other opinions/thoughts on the issue of agents like Dave's and the hit renters would take and the chance owners might double dip.

Last weekend I booked at AK for MLK weekend, the 2bdrm portion of a trip when the entire family will be there. Over the weekend it is really a lot of points. 174 I recall without checking. But now with all the points/renters in my mind I can't help thinking the Disney sells those points for $19.50 for single use points. That is $3,393 for 4 nights or $2,500 ish if I sell with Dave.

I hate to think what the cash price is but I am pretty sure I would not pay it or if I did it would really impact the joy I expect from the trip.

Also, probably only pertains to studios, I think for a family of 5, like mine is that has to reserve 2 hotel rooms or a suite, you are saving a decent amount of money. I think when I first was looking at staying in bigger rooms at Disney I saw the prices for the cash Villa rooms for 1 bedrooms which were over $1000/night at the time. Thankfully I did some more research and found the DVC forums.

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

IMO this is a well thought out post. I made the mistake of mentioning that Disney did not get contracts directly from GOD and that state law, each and every state, had laws that would impact the contract and generally all I got were flames from people arguing against their own interest almost seeming to want to be at the mercy of Disney. Although to be fair some seemed to think Disney would be merciful and some thought Disney was fleecing people. Disney's track record of being fairing and meeting people more than half way seemed to have vanished.

It is worth pointing out that DVC has done a great job at avoiding class action law suits (in fact lawsuits in general). Disney won't choose something that would be financially harmful to enough owners to generate a class action that goes into the actions of a disney controlled DVC and whose interests were being served

I'm not worried I will be compensated for my lost points one way or another. Any lawyer knows you try and build a contract so it is your choice what to do; that is far from pointing to a contract and saying I don't have to do anything so that is what I am doing. We have no obligation to our customers on warranty all the time and still do it because our customers matter to us.

Like someone else said, if I lose a year and half worth of points, it blows up my value. I'm focusing on getting through this and I am certain dvc, like the rest of disney, will do the right thing. People on here seem to forget that points are just that: a made up thing that represents money/accommodations. This isn't PhD level financial engineering to figure out appropriate compensation and I understand disney waiting to see how many are impacted before a final decision is made. Dvc members are the most loyal disney patrons there are, to treat them far worse than a random guest who gets a full refund just makes no sense.

These threads are filled with the same people over and over just stating why nothing will happen but they have never run a business before and spend all day on here pontificating about nonsense that doesn't even affect them. They talk about dvc contracts like it was carved into tablets by the hand of god himself lol. It's a piece of paper with words; I can squash a spider if I want but I choose not to and I instead catch them and place them outside my house.

Compensation is no more a legal question for dvc than it is for any other faction of disney refunding guests that take a trip to Disney once every 5-10 years or less. The shocking thing is how mean spirited people are on here but again it's people who don't understand business or finance, so I say those who are "losing points" just stay patient and don't let these people ruin your day.

Good luck to everyone through this whole situation let's hope things continue to improve.

 

[Soap_1984]

I like your optimism but at the same time I have a hard time getting on board. Even if they have the best of intentions, history has shown that DVC's decisions are not always in the best interest of the owners. I have to look no further than the 2020 points reallocation debacle for support of this thought. That's about as optimistic as I can be. Now to be a pessimist, I see points getting lost for good and two real reasons for that. The first is that unlike cash guests who have to be recruited to come to Disney, we as owners are guaranteed on the hook for the next 20+ years. Simply put, they don't have to do anything to make us happy. Secondly, they have taken, and likely will continue to take, the stance that by letting these points expire unused they are actually doing a service to the membership as a whole.

Take a look at the recovery offer sent to guests who had reservations canceled. Free dining on a full rack rate room and you have to buy tickets as well. Gee, what a great offer. For Annual Passholders it is a non-starter. But it's the offer that checks many boxes for Disney as it drives revenue to hotels, parks, and restaurants all at the same time, so it's what they offered. Net/net it costs them nothing. With regardsd to DVC owners, there are few (if any) ways for DVC to compensate owners for their points that isn't a concrete loss of cash for them, even if it is just in the form of interdepartmental billing. I'm not so sure I see them doing this.


I think it is true for you, but it's not true for your friends and family! From the sound of it you are already "losing" money on DVC.

Was it my optimism or everyone else's negativity. I say this to my wife all the time, but it gets tiring being right all the time.

Now what to do with my points...

 

[Cyberc1978]

Disney or DVC have just informed members that they are extending expiring April and June points for up to 1 year.

 

[glamdring269]

Disney or DVC have just informed members that they are extending expiring April and June points for up to 1 year.

That's great for folks affected on this side of the virus. The problem is they also implemented a restriction on borrowing points to only allow up to 50% of your points to be pulled forward. It was somewhat vague in terms of how long it would be in place but that is going to decimate our plans.

 

[ScubaCat]

That's great for folks affected on this side of the virus. The problem is they also implemented a restriction on borrowing points to only allow up to 50% of your points to be pulled forward. It was somewhat vague in terms of how long it would be in place but that is going to decimate our plans.

They've got to do something, though, to make room for all the extended points. I'm assuming that the timeframe of that policy would be determined by how long it takes for availability to equalize. I realize we're robbing Peter to pay Paul here, but ultimately everyone has to give something in the interest of fairness. My first read of the update is that it's the current best case scenario that stays within the contractual guidelines and is as fair as possible to everyone. Sorry it messes with your plans, though. I know there are a lot of people who do the "every 2-3 years with banking and/or borrowing" deal. There will definitely be some pain points.

 

[Soap_1984]

Moving your plans one year out is not decimating your plans; losing two years worth of points would be decimating your plans. It is an inconvenience but one that is necessary to prevent certain people from losing all their points. I'm sorry but I can't feel one bit of sorry for these minor restrictions when the alternative is people losing points they can never recover. If this had happened near the end of your use year and you had a trip planned, I can't imagine you complaining about the solution, you have to be fair and this spreads some of a relatively small burden across the group vs certain people actually bearing the entire cost of this random event at a random time.

 

[Louis morrell]

So opinions as to how long to get all of the extra points out of the system? Who will loose points now? How bad will walking reservations be for the foreseeable future? Just my immediate thoughts as I read the email.

 

[Sandisw]

Disney or DVC have just informed members that they are extending expiring April and June points for up to 1 year.

The expired points that were already banked are only getting 6 months extension from expiration...

 

[Sandisw]

They've got to do something, though, to make room for all the extended points. I'm assuming that the timeframe of that policy would be determined by how long it takes for availability to equalize. I realize we're robbing Peter to pay Paul here, but ultimately everyone has to give something in the interest of fairness. My first read of the update is that it's the current best case scenario that stays within the contractual guidelines and is as fair as possible to everyone. Sorry it messes with your plans, though. I know there are a lot of people who do the "every 2-3 years with banking and/or borrowing" deal. There will definitely be some pain points.

I want to add it probably was not only because of the late banking exception being given to April and June UY, but also because they may have had a lot more Aug UY and beyond owners banking more points already,

Those numbers have to be higher than normal as well.

 

[LAX]

They've got to do something, though, to make room for all the extended points. I'm assuming that the timeframe of that policy would be determined by how long it takes for availability to equalize. I realize we're robbing Peter to pay Paul here, but ultimately everyone has to give something in the interest of fairness. My first read of the update is that it's the current best case scenario that stays within the contractual guidelines and is as fair as possible to everyone. Sorry it messes with your plans, though. I know there are a lot of people who do the "every 2-3 years with banking and/or borrowing" deal. There will definitely be some pain points.

I agree with "robbing Peter to pay Paul" part, but I doubt extending the points "ultimately shares the pain." It would be inevitable some members will end up losing points while others won't. Those that are more savvy with booking reservations or willing to invest the time and effort on "walking" will win. I doubt ALL members will end up losing some points each with this plan. To me, this is more like shifting the pain, rather than sharing it.

LAX

 

[Sandisw]

I agree with "robbing Peter to pay Paul" part, but I doubt extending the points "ultimately shares the pain." It would be inevitable some members will end up losing points while others won't. Those that are more savvy with booking reservations or willing to invest the time and effort on "walking" will win. I doubt ALL members will end up losing some points each with this plan. To me, this is more like shifting the pain, rather sharing it.

LAX

I still think that there are going to be many banked 2018 UY points from April and June that will still expire, even given the extension,

Assume June 1st open, they have 4 months. Getting a new trip planned with only those points won’t be easy, especially some may not be willing to travel that soon,

So, while it was a nice move, in reality, summer travel may not be possible.

 

[LAX]

I still think that there are going to be many banked 2018 UY points from April and June that will still expire, even given the extension,

Assume June 1st open, they have 4 months. Getting a new trip planned with only those points won’t be easy, especially some may not be willing to travel that soon,

So, while it was a nice move, in reality, summer travel may not be possible.

My point is that those benefiting from this extension of expiring points will be displacing other members with expiring points later in the year. This is now more "a game of musical chair." Someone will still end up losing points. It's still not "fair" to some in my book.

LAX

 

[Sandisw]

My point is that those benefiting from this extension of expiring points will be displacing other members with expiring points later in the year. This is now more "a game of musical chair." Someone will still end up losing points. It's still not "fair" to some in my book.

LAX

Nothing would be seen as fair to everyone. This at least seems to take into account both short term and long term responsbilities,

 

[LAX]

Nothing would be seen as fair to everyone. This at least seems to take into account both short term and long term responsbilities,

That's true. Thus, how is this a "better" plan than just letting those points expire? Like I said earlier, someone will get stuck losing points, so why shift the pain to those who are not directly impacted by the closure?

LAX