Bush won't rule out nuclear stike on Iran...

[Charade]

I totally agree. Bush is not making the US very popular in the world. Whenever Bush visits a foreign country, there's always large protests to greet him. They do not support our premptive war with Iraq, and neither do I. America has done a lot of shameful things, such as the above mentioned: Abu Graib, Gitmo, etc. We should ask God to forgive America instead of always saying "God BLESS America" while blindly waving the flag. People who think the POTUS and the USA can do no wrong should get their heads out of the sand.

Oh good grief.

 

[lw49033]

Apparently, Japan ignored the conditions of surrender and paid dearly. But that doesn't negate the fact that if a Allied land invasion came to mainland Japan, that many many more people would die than did in the two A-bomb attacks.

And that doesn't negate the fact that peace was achievable without killing an extra 120,000 people, nearly all civilians. Whatever supposed advantage we got from being allowed to do whatever we wanted to their Emperor was not worth those 120,000 lives.

 

[Charade]

And that doesn't negate the fact that peace was achievable without killing an extra 120,000 people, nearly all civilians. Whatever supposed advantage we got from being allowed to do whatever we wanted to their Emperor was not worth those 120,000 lives.

Huh? They weren't even willing to surrender AFTER we dropped both bombs UNTIL the Emperor said "I give".

So lets play out that we didn't drop the bombs and the Allied invasion went ahead because Japan refused unconditional surrender. By most calculations, millions of Japanese (mostly civilians) would die and so would 10's of thousands (estitmated a million which I think is high) Allied troops.

What would you're plan have been if you had the option of dropping the bomb?

Obviously, more talk wasn't getting us anywhere. After 4 years, it HAD to end.

 

[lw49033]

What would you're plan have been if you had the option of dropping the bomb?

My plan? Tell them, ok, we won't kill the Emperor. Simple enough?

120,000 dead civilians wasn't a price worth paying in order to have the privilege of saying "we've got the biggest d***s on earth"--which is what "unconditional surrender" amounts to.

 

[Free4Life11]

So let me get this straight, we DON'T want them to develop nuclear weapons but we won't rule out using, NUCLEAR WEAPONS against them. Pretty damn illogical.

 

[lw49033]

So let me get this straight, we DON'T want them to develop nuclear weapons but we won't rule out using, NUCLEAR WEAPONS against them. Pretty damn illogical.

Who needs logic when you have a direct line to God, right?

 

[WIcruizer]

So let me get this straight, we DON'T want them to develop nuclear weapons but we won't rule out using, NUCLEAR WEAPONS against them. Pretty damn illogical.

Are you serious? Ok. We have nuclear weapons, so every country should have them right? Syria, Iran, the Palestinians, Cuba, etc. Again, your post is another very juvenile view of the world.

 

[Free4Life11]

Are you serious? Ok. We have nuclear weapons, so every country should have them right? Syria, Iran, the Palestinians, Cuba, etc. Again, your post is another very juvenile view of the world.

No. No one should have them.

Who needs logic when you have a direct line to God, right?

Apparently! Every day I regret my vote for this lunatic. I'm done with him.

 

[lw49033]

Are you serious? Ok. We have nuclear weapons, so every country should have them right? Syria, Iran, the Palestinians, Cuba, etc. Again, your post is another very juvenile view of the world.

If fair play is juvenile, I'd rather be juvenile than amoral. That's a pretty apt description of the Republican Party these days--they have lots of religion and no morality.

 

[Teejay32]

Japan offered peace terms through their ambassador to the USSR in July, 1945. Their sole condition was that we would spare the Emperor (which of course we did anyway). We followed that be reiterating, at Potsdam, the demand for unconditional surrender. Look it up.

never heard that one before, where'd it come from?

 

[lw49033]

never heard that one before, where'd it come from?

Of course you never heard it, just like we never hear about the couple hundred thousand people we killed in the Phillipines in 1898-1902 because they didn't want to be ruled by us. You think they are going to tell you bad things about the government in government schools?

If you are really interested, google "Japan peace terms July 1945" or something like that. I'm sure you 'll find what you want.

 

[Free4Life11]

I totally agree. Bush is not making the US very popular in the world. Whenever Bush visits a foreign country, there's always large protests to greet him. They do not support our premptive war with Iraq, and neither do I. America has done a lot of shameful things, such as the above mentioned: Abu Graib, Gitmo, etc. We should ask God to forgive America instead of always saying "God BLESS America" while blindly waving the flag. People who think the POTUS and the USA can do no wrong should get their heads out of the sand.

Well said!

 

[Teejay32]

Of course you never heard it, just like we never hear about the couple hundred thousand people we killed in the Phillipines in 1898-1902 because they didn't want to be ruled by us. You think they are going to tell you bad things about the government in government schools?

If you are really interested, google "Japan peace terms July 1945" or something like that. I'm sure you 'll find what you want.

lol. okay.

 

[ford family]

Japan offered peace terms through their ambassador to the USSR in July, 1945. Their sole condition was that we would spare the Emperor (which of course we did anyway). We followed that be reiterating, at Potsdam, the demand for unconditional surrender. Look it up.

You do come out with some drivel, don't you?

from Wikpedia
Attempts to deal with the Soviet Union
On June 30, Togo told Sato Naotake, Japan's ambassador in Moscow, to try to establish "firm and lasting relations of friendship". Sato was to discuss the status of Manchuria and "any matter the Russians would like to bring up". Sato finally met with Soviet Foreign Minister Vyacheslav Molotov on July 11, but without result. On July 12, Togo directed Sato to tell the Russians that,

"His Majesty the Emperor, mindful of the fact that the present war daily brings greater evil and sacrifice upon the peoples of all the belligerent powers, desires from his heart that it may be quickly terminated. But so long as England and the United States insist upon unconditional surrender the Japanese Empire has no alternative but to fight on with all its strength for the honor and existence of the Motherland."
The Emperor proposed sending Prince Konoe as a Special Envoy, though he would be unable to reach Moscow before the Potsdam Conference.

Sato advised Togo that in reality, "unconditional surrender or terms closely equivalent thereto" was all that Japan could expect. Moreover Togo's messages were not "clear about the views of the Government and the Military with regard to the termination of the war." I.e., was Togo's initiative supported by the key elements of Japan's power structure?

On July 17, Togo responded,

"Although the directing powers, and the government as well, are convinced that our war strength still can deliver considerable blows to the enemy, we are unable to feel absolutely secure peace of mind ...
Please bear particularly in mind, however, that we are not seeking the Russians' mediation for anything like an unconditional surrender."
In reply, Sato clarifed,

"It goes without saying that in my earlier message calling for unconditional surrender or closely equivalent terms, I made an exception of the question of preserving [the Imperial House]."
On July 21, speaking in the name of the cabinet, Togo repeated,

"With regard to unconditional surrender we are unable to consent to it under any circumstances whatever. ... It is in order to avoid such a state of affairs that we are seeking a peace, ... through the good offices of Russia. ... it would also be disadvantageous and impossible, from the standpoint of foreign and domestic considerations, to make an immediate declaration of specific terms."
Allied cryptographers had broken most of Japan's codes. As a result, messages between Tokyo and Japan's embassies were provided to Allied policy-makers more-or-less as quickly as to the intended recipients.

ford family

 

[lw49033]

Your point is...what?

I already said, they were not prepared to unconditionally surrender, but they were prepared to surrender. The satisfaction of our remaining condition was not worth 120,000 dead Japanese civilians.

 

[ford family]

Europeans are not "pouring into the U.S." according to anything I've ever seen. Except Bosnians, maybe.

Hmm, only 5,415,000 in 2003, barely a trickle, eh? And that's only the legal ones!!
http://www.iie.com/publications/chapters_preview/4000/02iie4000.pdf

ford family

 

[lw49033]

Hmm, only 5,415,000 in 2003, barely a trickle, eh? And that's only the legal ones!!
http://www.iie.com/publications/chapters_preview/4000/02iie4000.pdf

ford family

5.4 million European-born Americans out of 34.6 million total foreign-born Americans, out of about what, 290 milllion Americans? I wouldn't say Europeans are beating down our door, no.

 

[ford family]

That's 5,415,000 new immigrants from Europe arriving just in 2003. And we don't beat the door down. We knock and wait for permission to enter.

ford family

 

[lw49033]

Read the page again. You misread it.

 

[Teejay32]

Your point is...what?

I already said, they were not prepared to unconditionally surrender, but they were prepared to surrender. The satisfaction of our remaining condition was not worth 120,000 dead Japanese civilians.

They were prepared to stop the fight on their terms. We rarely hear anything about Japan's contributions to regional conquest in the 40s, only that we dropped atomic bombs on them. There's more to the story.