building-toward-a-marathon training schedule question

Cross training question, and fitting it into the higdon program.

I know that he says that you can just walk or do something easy, but what if I wanted to lift on that day? Specifically glute and core work (thinking 80DO "booty" or "total body core")? Too much load on the legs since it's the day after a long run? See how the legs feel that day and make a decision?
 
My range over the past few months has been as low as 10 and as high as 30 but I'm also not sticking to a schedule. I was going to go with the book's advanced plan and really appreciate the info you provide (both here and in general on the boards). Where are those two "extra" plans from? I didn't remember seeing them in the book. The Extra 40-60 looks like it might be worth it the second time around but that 60-80 would be a really big increase.

Sounds good. I think as long as you keep the pacing honest and stick with it, then the mileage jump to the Hansons Advanced shouldn't be too aggressive from what you did recently. Just make sure to use current fitness pacing from a recent race, and not necessarily where you want to be. If you haven't raced recently, then consider doing a mile time trial (minimal impact on training and relatively useful in determining current fitness levels).

I found the extra plans on the internet back in 2016. No clue where I found them, but I remember I wasn't actively searching them out but rather was looking for all the training plan methodology information I could find. I can PM them to you.

Do you think that stress fracture was a result of the plan or just not enough rest before starting the plan. My friend that PR'd using this plan that I mentioned earlier ended up going into a second plan shortly after the race and had some issues. He attributes it more to his lack of recovery post race than to the plan itself but any N = 1 will be biased.

So I did Hansons Advanced leading into October 2015 with no issues (3:38), and that was the first real big jump for me in training volume. Took a week off, and then I did Dopey 2016 following an abbreviated plan. Took 2 weeks off, and then did Hansons Advanced again in May 2016 (3:28). Took 2 weeks off, and then did the Hansons Extra 40-60 mixed a bit with the Pro plan found at the back of the Hansons Book (did 90 min as my easy days). The severe stress reaction occurred during the October 2016 marathon (3:23). So it's my belief that the injury occurred because of a lack of ebb/flow in the weekly mileage and because I increased my easy day maximum to 90 min. I wasn't getting enough recovery between bouts of exercise and my body was perceiving everything as at least moderately challenging.

My only actual stress fracture occurred after Dopey 2018 (Jan). The training cycle was short and aggressive. It worked, but when I returned to running after two weeks off I had a nagging bone soreness. So like your friend this one was noticed after taking some time off and returning to running. I had a very slight indication something was wrong right prior to Dopey 2018, but had zero issues during the races as I literally crushed them all. It was later confirmed to be a low grade fibula stress fracture on the back side (which is relatively rare). Doctor claimed that they aren't usually felt and mostly go unnoticed when they occur. The severe stress reaction (because neither Xray or MRI could ever find anything) from Oct 2016 was way way more painful and lasted for significantly longer (about a month from my recollection). I still have a slight bone deformation from it despite it not actually being a fracture of any kind. This one likely occurred because of a lack of rest from Oct 2017 marathon, aggressive and short build into Dopey 2018.

From memory, I don't believe I've had an occurrence of severe stress reaction or stress fracture since. These days my injuries seem to be more tendonitis of the ankle or hamstring. I've evaded a reoccurrence of bone issues since I reduced the running volume from those previous plans and increased my Vitamin D supplement intake to 2000 IU per day. Based on a DXA scan from Feb 2020, my bone mineral density is in the top 98% percentile. So these days I'm more hesitant to believe when my body sends warning signs about running bone injuries. I don't run nearly as much as I did and my bones are supremely dense. The cycling has been an adequate replacement (albeit it requires nearly twice as much time to equal the same run fitness level).

Cross training question, and fitting it into the higdon program.

I know that he says that you can just walk or do something easy, but what if I wanted to lift on that day? Specifically glute and core work (thinking 80DO "booty" or "total body core")? Too much load on the legs since it's the day after a long run? See how the legs feel that day and make a decision?

I wouldn't do anything hard leg intensive on that cross day post long run days. That recovery is needed. That's not to say you couldn't do an easy cycling instead, but I wouldn't do anything lower body challenging. If you want to add in lower body strength work, then you're much better off adding it in on the same day as your other hard running days (Wed and Sun). This way you keep your hard days hard and your easy days easy. I used to do 80DO Cardio Flow on long run days. It was always a good stretch but never all that challenging.

If you want to add in upper body strength work, then you could probably do it on Sunday. Something like LIIFT4 chest/triceps, back/biceps, or shoulders are all good exclusive upper body workouts I paired with an easy/off run day. I would always be more cautious during the cardio times, or would replace the LIIFT4 cardio with McMillan Core work instead.
 
I wouldn't do anything hard leg intensive on that cross day post long run days. That recovery is needed. This way you keep your hard days hard and your easy days easy. I used to do 80DO Cardio Flow on long run days. It was always a good stretch but never all that challenging.

If you want to add in upper body strength work, then you could probably do it on Sunday. Something like LIIFT4 chest/triceps, back/biceps, or shoulders are all good exclusive upper body workouts I paired with an easy/off run day. I would always be more cautious during the cardio times, or would replace the LIIFT4 cardio with McMillan Core work instead.

I did about half of liift 4 in the fall, so what you're saying is on that cross day, do the liift4 upper body stuff (50/50 workouts would be super easy to skip the cardio portion), and do a core workout....which there are a lot to choose from on BoD. Got it.
 
I did about half of liift 4 in the fall, so what you're saying is on that cross day, do the liift4 upper body stuff (50/50 workouts would be super easy to skip the cardio portion), and do a core workout....which there are a lot to choose from on BoD. Got it.

My first choice would be to recommend cycling/swimming because then it gets the aerobic system going without the impact of running. But if you want to go for lifting, then yea I'd recommend the upper body or core stuff. As Higdon says in the notes, be wary of side to side sudden movements. Since you're running long distances you are strengthing/stressing the forward momentum of the muscles. That puts you at an increased risk of injury if you were to do sudden side to side exercises. He mentions basketball as an example, but I would include other plyometric type activities that have sudden side to side movements as risks.
 


My first choice would be to recommend cycling/swimming because then it gets the aerobic system going without the impact of running. As Higdon says in the notes, be wary of side to side sudden movements. Since you're running long distances you are strengthing/stressing the forward momentum of the muscles. That puts you at an increased risk of injury if you were to do sudden side to side exercises.
Yeah, I read that part as well. Cycling would require me to get a bike. 😆 and while swimming could happen at a local lake, that would be kind of hard to do with DH's crazy work schedule and a1 year old. I'd likely have to push her on some sort of floatie and i don't think she would tolerate that for very long. Stuff I can do at the house during nap time is really necessary.

I have a feeling camping trips are going to be a potential hurdle as well with the long weekend runs and not being on known roads/trails. I can run a 7 mile T at home and never be more than 2.5 miles from the house. Figuring out a place to run 10-18 miles might be a challenge. I'll have to cross that bridge when I get to it (since marathon training will depend on how the half goes and what my SIL feels is doable for her since it would require a significant miles commitment from her during the first month and a half of the school year and she teaches kindergarten. I'm trying to be really optimistic.
 
Cycling would require me to get a bike.
Stuff I can do at the house during nap time is really necessary.

Highly recommend indoor cycling for this purpose. It's been a helpful tool for me having a 6 year old and not wanting to leave her home alone to train when my wife is working. Allows me to just do it in the basement, but always be there if she needs me. Not quite a 1 year old, but still helpful. And the setup doesn't have to be expensive. Especially since your goal for the cycling is simply very easy aerobic work. So a simple bike, nothing fancy, and a simple trainer (wheel on, doesn't have to be smart, roller trainer). You don't even really need an app with workouts. Then you could just base the workouts simply on duration and effort level. Like 20 min of very easy effort + 10 min of easy effort + 10 min of mildly easy effort + 20 min of very easy effort. It doesn't have to be crazy structured for your purpose.

I have a feeling camping trips are going to be a potential hurdle as well with the long weekend runs and not being on known roads/trails. I can run a 7 mile T at home and never be more than 2.5 miles from the house. Figuring out a place to run 10-18 miles might be a challenge. I'll have to cross that bridge when I get to it (since marathon training will depend on how the half goes and what my SIL feels is doable for her since it would require a significant miles commitment from her during the first month and a half of the school year and she teaches kindergarten. I'm trying to be really optimistic.

There are always options. Especially the further you know in advance of these camping trips. You let me know when you know they are and I can figure out how to adjust the schedule as best as possible.

The upside for your SIL is that the majority of training in September for the October race will be the taper. So it's well timed from that aspect. Because a November race would mean peak training through September and some of October. But remember the goal is to finish the marathon more so than any time or the such. So it's feasible to work the training such that you peak in August and then just ride down in September. Less training when she's teaching, but still capable of finishing the marathon in October. You want good fitness, not necessarily peak fitness.
 


i have no personal experience, but it looks like yes? Depending on how early the leaves start changing (it's usually mid/late october that close to the lakeshore) it could be a really pretty/scenic run also.
 
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