Bruce Vaughn out as Head of Imagineering

[rteetz]

Yes...but you're falling for the webboard headfake that all we as fans need to worry about is the quality of the construction and Disney will be happy.

Many things matter...and it's not just "quality". Getting people there and spending cash in the giftshops are frankly a bigger deal. It's the only way more gets done.

AK has underachieved for almost 20 years...that's too long, frankly. It's caused a lot of damage.

And I like ak...I really do. But the flaws are pretty known.

Instead of people going for 15 years and staying 4 hours one day outta 7...they should have SKIPPED it like DCA and forced change. That's the Bottomline.

Unfortunately WDW doesn't have the same type of visitor base that Disneyland does in order to change things like that.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Unfortunately WDW doesn't have the same type of visitor base that Disneyland does in order to change things like that.

But the accountants coubt the bills the same way...

In retrospect...Eisner pushed for AK and then was castrated by it for the rest of his career. It really changed everything.

Again...I like it. But "it's so immersive" is the standard 15 year excuse for ak defenders That have tried to gloss over the fact that the park is short on substance. And by Disney standards it is.

 

[anthony2k7]

lockedoutlogic, I think you're being harsh on AK as usual.

Yeah there's a lot wrong with it, but its still a very beautiful park.

It just needs more of everything. More rides, more shows, more streetmosphere, more restaurants and a whole lot more love from the execs.

The only bit I think definitely needs to be "SKIPPED" is dinoland.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

lockedoutlogic, I think you're being harsh on AK as usual.

Yeah there's a lot wrong with it, but its still a very beautiful park.

It just needs more of everything. More rides, more shows, more streetmosphere, more restaurants and a whole lot more love from the execs.

The only bit I think definitely needs to be "SKIPPED" is dinoland.

thats my point…you're agreeing with me.

Its just so TIRESOME to listen to the elitist defense of animal kingdom…

what is that? "its the most detailed, visual park disney has ever done…its MY personal favorite…"

Thats almost akin to a love of modern art…like the hip thing to do.

I don't even doubt the sincerity - i'm sure people genuinely mean it…

But its a numbers game: how many people of the ticket paying public or potential customers in the marketing pool would or do think that?

honestly? 5%, 15%, 25%?

the problem is that disney is in the "95, 85,75%" game…and a high overhead park that has honestly been responsible for Billions in capital investment in wdw…and they have to own that…can be viewed as a bit of an albatross. when you don't make MAD profit at a disney park - there are longterm consequences. As in it sat basically in a state of near stasis for 15+ years….it was trumped for much needed investments in wdw on every occasion except one: the world greatest thrill ride: everest. It's basically the same park since day one…and though i am cautiously applauding what they're doing now….we don't know anything about this rivers of light show…it could be as interesting as crapestry of nations for all we know…and avatar looks good - for now. that isn't a slam dunk either. Let's face it: we're two years from that still too.

I know that's a tad crazy for the amount of attendance they've had…but the case can be legitimately made.

 

[anthony2k7]

thats my point…you're agreeing with me.

well only to some extent, you're suggesting (or seem to be?) that a lot of the park needs to be "SKIPPED" and rebuilt like DCA. I'm not saying that. Most of the park its great and shouldn't be touched. It just needs expanding. Just dinoland needs flattening and starting again.

As in it sat basically in a state of near stasis for 15+ years….it was trumped for much needed investments in wdw on every occasion except one: the world greatest thrill ride: everest. It's basically the same park since day one…

Right now its worse than "in a state of near stasis". At least it used to have a parade - not any more.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

i'm not saying anything should have been "skipped"…

I'm saying the park should have been "boycotted" until it was built complete and it is still not close.

I'm sure the animals would enjoy the quiet.

The reality is that with 10,000,000 "gate entries" - estimated - but few repeat days for travelers and a significant number ( we think…impossible to quantify) of "half dayers" at ak…it made the park worse off. It was identified as a "problem" in 2000 when attendance began to go backward - here enters "chester and hesters diorama/diarrhea/dinorama" into our lives…
but the raw "number" was the biggest reason they have largely ignored it/let it limp along for this long.

it just was never a big enough emergency…so i have 15 years of animal kingdom memories no where near where it could or should be.

yet another case of the wdw consumers royally screwing the consumers.

 

[twebber55]

one thing is for sure this entire DAK expansion sofar has been a home run so i have no doubt the rest will as well, this is an exciting time for DAK over the next year or so new lands, new rides, new dining, new experiences

 

[lockedoutlogic]

one thing is for sure this entire DAK expansion sofar has been a home run so i have no doubt the rest will as well, this is an exciting time for DAK over the next year or so new lands, new rides, new dining, new experiences

Woah woah...

How can anything be a "home run" if the pitch hasn't been thrown yet?

Cautiously optimistic...credit where due

 

[twebber55]

Woah woah...

How can anything be a "home run" if the pitch hasn't been thrown yet?

Cautiously optimistic...credit where due

New Harambe, new lion king area, discovery island home runs so far IMO of course

my biggest fear is that avatar will be so good that it will make Dinoland look worse than it already is

 

[anthony2k7]

New Harambe, new lion king area, discovery island home runs so far IMO of course

my biggest fear is that avatar will be so good that it will make Dinoland look worse than it already is

wait... comparing Avatarland to Dinoland - were your other comments sarcasm?

 

[twebber55]

wait... comparing Avatarland to Dinoland - were your other comments sarcasm?

sorry have no idea what you re talking about

 

[lockedoutlogic]

New Harambe, new lion king area, discovery island home runs so far IMO of course

my biggest fear is that avatar will be so good that it will make Dinoland look worse than it already is

Optimism flows on Saturday, huh?

The lion king theater is almost pathetically exactly the same. I couldnt believe they put so little effort into it.

The marketplace is what I would call "ok"...any food additions are nice but i was underwhelmed with the layout/area. Very hectic and not In a good way.

I don't recall seeing anything completed on my last foray in the discovery island area...so I'll trust your judgement.

And if avatar isn't 5x better than dinoland then we have a problem...because the accountants won't give that park another dime. It needs to be world class...

Anybody want to bet that right now? Or that the other hundreds of millions expect to go to it will agree?

 

[twebber55]

Optimism flows on Saturday, huh?

The lion king theater is almost pathetic exactly the same. I could believe they put so little effort into it.

The marketplace is what I would call "ok"...any food additions are nice but i was underwhelmed with the layout/area. Very hectic and not In a good way.

I don't recall seeing anything completed on my last foray in the discovery island area...so I'll trust your judgement.

And if avatar isn't 5x better than dinoland then we have a problem...because the accountants won't give that park another dime. It needs to be world class...

Anybody want to bet that right now? Or that the other hundreds of millions expect to go to it will agree?

not optimistic not pessimistic just my opinion
and as far as avatar and dinoland you didnt quite get my point, i was saying (not well apparently) dinoland is horrible and when you open a new innovative (hopefully) immersive land thats well funded it makes that area look even more poorly than it already is
sorry for the confusion

 

[lockedoutlogic]

not optimistic not pessimistic just my opinion
and as far as avatar and dinoland you didnt quite get my point, i was saying (not well apparently) dinoland is horrible and when you open a new innovative (hopefully) immersive land thats well funded it makes that area look even more poorly than it already is
sorry for the confusion

Ok...makes sense

 

[rteetz]

Optimism flows on Saturday, huh?

The lion king theater is almost pathetically exactly the same. I couldnt believe they put so little effort into it.

The marketplace is what I would call "ok"...any food additions are nice but i was underwhelmed with the layout/area. Very hectic and not In a good way.

I don't recall seeing anything completed on my last foray in the discovery island area...so I'll trust your judgement.

And if avatar isn't 5x better than dinoland then we have a problem...because the accountants won't give that park another dime. It needs to be world class...

Anybody want to bet that right now? Or that the other hundreds of millions expect to go to it will agree?

How is the theater supposed to be any different though? They put more effort into this theater than they did the last. In my opinion it's the best show on property. The theming outside the theater is very good.

The marketplace serves its purpose. It's themed to be like its right in Harambe I don't understand how you can be underwhelmed with a quick service area.

 

[Eoghann]

I love Animal Kingdom and I love the theming (obligatory exception for Dinoland).

But I will acknowledge there is a strong business case that it failed in its core goal and imagineeringing has to take a portion of the blame.

Whether that failure was the result of budget over-runs or other management failures (or a combination) I don't know. What I mean is, was the failure because the park wasn't built as originally envisioned or was was the original vision insufficient?

I also sort of don't care, because I love the park and other people's enjoyment (outside my family) isn't really my problem...

 

[George4]

I love Animal Kingdom and I love the theming (obligatory exception for Dinoland).

But I will acknowledge there is a strong business case that it failed in its core goal and imagineeringing has to take a portion of the blame.

Whether that failure was the result of budget over-runs or other management failures (or a combination) I don't know. What I mean is, was the failure because the park wasn't built as originally envisioned or was was the original vision insufficient?

I also sort of don't care, because I love the park and other people's enjoyment (outside my family) isn't really my problem...

Looking at a lot of things that have been built in the past 15 years, it appears that the vision and budget don't match. So many things are halfway done, or cut short of what the original vision rumors were. On top of that, so many additions are short of the vision and spectacle that we saw in the early years of Disney. Looking at SDMT, the theming is really nicely done, but the ride is so short, and the braking spots cut out so much speed, that you are left wondering where the rest of the ride is. Even Everest Expedition has the feeling that there should have been more to the ride at the end.

 

[Eoghann]

Looking at a lot of things that have been built in the past 15 years, it appears that the vision and budget don't match. So many things are halfway done, or cut short of what the original vision rumors were. On top of that, so many additions are short of the vision and spectacle that we saw in the early years of Disney. Looking at SDMT, the theming is really nicely done, but the ride is so short, and the braking spots cut out so much speed, that you are left wondering where the rest of the ride is. Even Everest Expedition has the feeling that there should have been more to the ride at the end.

Wouldn't surprise me, but it's not as new as you think. I was listening to a Disney history podcast the other day and they mentioned that Star Tours, Captain EO and Splash Mountain at Disneyland were all way over budget when built. Part of the problem is the size of the company. Big companies are inefficient and have high overheads, it's in their DNA.

The difference maybe is that before when it overran the budget, they just kept going?

 

[lockedoutlogic]

The difference maybe is that before when it overran the budget, they just kept going?

That's the 100% truth.

They used to follow through on finalized concept...no matter what.

There's a huge park with a 200 ft diameter golfball that's a living monument to that.

Now...as in "new fantasyland"...they are quick to line item downsize or cancel at the first sign of cost overruns. I think we can all
Agree that far more was spent on Infrastructure/ground work there than the attractions. That's how you get "under budget"

There's a park with a 200 ft unnecessary tree that is a testament to what modern accounting in the face of cost overruns looks like.

Which approach is correct?

Neither...you can't blow the whole wad nor slash things that take out the creative guts of a project. It has to be a balance.

Perhaps some have noticed that I am very harsh on a certain imagineering exec...
Why? Because he blows budgets which ultimately hamstrings parks and robs the fans. There is a definite cumulative effect when you spend public company's money.

You have to shoot for the middle of the uprights when you kick the ball...do things that make economic sense while still winning SOME of your artistic battles.

 

[rteetz]

Wouldn't surprise me, but it's not as new as you think. I was listening to a Disney history podcast the other day and they mentioned that Star Tours, Captain EO and Splash Mountain at Disneyland were all way over budget when built. Part of the problem is the size of the company. Big companies are inefficient and have high overheads, it's in their DNA.

The difference maybe is that before when it overran the budget, they just kept going?

Just finished that episode today. I actually can't wait for the history on splash mountain because that attraction is a favorite of mine and the hints they gave saying that Disney was building it specifically because they needed a cheap attraction and then it went way over budget is really interesting. Nearly every single project Disney has don't has gone over budget in some way. Like you said they are just too large to avoid that sometimes.