Breeder's Cup 2009

[ZephyrHawk]

I have been looking for a website that lists post times and the horses all day. Maybe I suddenly grew inept at web surfing, but I can't even find it, not even on the Breeder's Cup website. Does anyone have a good link for me?

Not easy info to find, don't feel odd. Try www.bloodhorse.com.

I too, am kind of against Zenyatta running. She is undefeated, and to put her in her first race against the boys at such a distance in such a highlighted event seems almost unfair to me.

Yes, especially when they could run her in the Distaff and win and retire her with a perfect 14 for 14 record.

Anyway, tomorrow is going to be very enjoyable flipping back and forth in between college football and horse racing.

Yeah, I'm gonna be at a college football game tomorrow. Thank goodness for TiVo.

 

[Thumper_Man]

I'm from NM and Mine That Bird is one of our local horses. My money will be on him. Since running the Belmont, he's only run 2 races. Both in which he didn't fare very well. Again, being he's one of our local horses, I'm hoping he wins. I would've like to seen Rachel Alexandra run in the Classic. Would've been a good re-match between her and Mine That Bird, in which Mine That Bird almost came through at the end again.

Looking at the odds, the early favorite is Zenyatta at 5-2, followed by Rip Van Winkle & Summer Bird. These are your top 3 at the moment. I don't know much about Rip Van Winkle since this horse has been running in England. Summer Bird blew away the competition at the Belmont, but didn't fare too well at the KD. He's shown he can run good on a sloppy track, but not so much a fast track. Never know though.

Although I'm routing for Mine That Bird, Zenyatta looks unstoppable. 13 straight wins. Don't count her out. She will definitely be in the top 3 if she don't win the whole thing. IMO Rachel Alexandra I think would've given Zeny some good competition here. As an earlier poster said, Zeny is home and that's a huge advantage.

Looking at some of the other horses, Colonel John has only run 3 races this year. Not any of the 3 major races. He did beat Mine That Bird at Santa Anita, so no telling how he'll do here.

Twice Over has been a turf runner over in England. This is his first race in the dirt. He's won his last 3, but being he's running against horses who primarily run in the dirt. Don't expect much here.

Richard's Kid has been doing decently lately. Could upset the field.

Gio Ponti is also another turf runner and been doing well in the turf. We'll see how he does in the dirt.

Einstein started out the year pretty good, but as of late he's been fading. He's one of the older horses in the race. IMO don't think he'll fair very well against the youngsters.

Girolamo has only run 3 races this year. He has a new trainer and has won all three of his races. This is his first big race. He'll be a good threat in the future, but don't see him doing much in this race. I could be wrong though.

Regal Ransom is still on the comeback trail. Has only ran 1 race since the KD where he finished 8th. Faded on the home stretch at the KD. Won his last race. Against this field, I don't think he'll do well.

Quality Road is also on the comeback trail after a cracked heel. Missed the 3 majors. Raced against Summer Bird and had the lead, but couldn't hold him off. Summer Bird caught him to get the win.

Last but not least Awesome Gem. He is the long shot at 30-1. Another horse that didn't run the 3 majors. Won his last race, but that's about it. Think the odds makers have it right on this one.

So question is, how am I going to pick them?

1. Mine That Bird
2. Zenyatta
3. Summer Bird.

Although Zenyatta might take it all.

 

[ZephyrHawk]

Holy cow! A real horseplayer visits my thread!

I would've like to seen Rachel Alexandra run in the Classic. Would've been a good re-match between her and Mine That Bird, in which Mine That Bird almost came through at the end again.

Who wouldn't? However, I'm happy to wait and see her next year. Personally, I would rather have seen a Rachel/Zenyatta matchup to quiet all this hulabaloo about the two.

Looking at the odds, the early favorite is Zenyatta at 5-2, followed by Rip Van Winkle & Summer Bird. These are your top 3 at the moment. I don't know much about Rip Van Winkle since this horse has been running in England. Summer Bird blew away the competition at the Belmont, but didn't fare too well at the KD. He's shown he can run good on a sloppy track, but not so much a fast track. Never know though.

Rip is a good horse with bad feet. His trainer says his feet are fine. Handicappers at the track are leaving him out of their bets, though, so take your pick of who to believe.

The KD is often a crap shoot. I never count against a horse for losing that. Summer Bird became the first horse since Easy Goer to win the Belmont, the Travers and the Jockey Club Gold Cup. He is a machine. And add to that the fact that he's finished a not too shabby second to Rachel in the Haskell. My only concern is whether he'll play over Santa Anita's synthetic track.

Twice Over has been a turf runner over in England. This is his first race in the dirt. He's won his last 3, but being he's running against horses who primarily run in the dirt. Don't expect much here.

Ah, but its synthetic dirt. The Euros seem to like that.

Gio Ponti is also another turf runner and been doing well in the turf. We'll see how he does in the dirt.

If Summer Bird can't get it done on the synthetic this boy is my choice.

Einstein started out the year pretty good, but as of late he's been fading. He's one of the older horses in the race. IMO don't think he'll fair very well against the youngsters.

God, I love Einstein. He's such a fan favorite. But he always fails to perform for me in big races. I'd love to see him win here, but I'm not looking for it.

Quality Road is also on the comeback trail after a cracked heel. Missed the 3 majors. Raced against Summer Bird and had the lead, but couldn't hold him off. Summer Bird caught him to get the win.

I think QR needs to stay at a mile and an eighth.

So question is, how am I going to pick them?

1. Mine That Bird
2. Zenyatta
3. Summer Bird.

Interesting choice of MTB. It's possible he could bounce back, but I don't know. Bit of a tall order from my perspective. I don't dis horses for losing the KD, and I am never all that impressed by horses that win the KD. It's a crazy race and crazy things happen in it. I think MTB peaked at the KD and Preakness. Although that's not true because (as much as he may be a local boy) he was a Canadian juvenile champion before he ever got to NM. Plus, he's got Calvin back on top, and that's got to be to his benefit.

 

[Thumper_Man]

Interesting choice of MTB. It's possible he could bounce back, but I don't know. Bit of a tall order from my perspective. I don't dis horses for losing the KD, and I am never all that impressed by horses that win the KD. It's a crazy race and crazy things happen in it. I think MTB peaked at the KD and Preakness. Although that's not true because (as much as he may be a local boy) he was a Canadian juvenile champion before he ever got to NM. Plus, he's got Calvin back on top, and that's got to be to his benefit.

I grew up at our local race tracks. My parents love to go. So did my grandparents. So it is hard not to be a fan when you've been going to the races since you were 5 years old (I'm 37 now).

I'm hoping MTB bounces back. As I said, he's one of the locals now and one of the primary reasons I'm picking him. We've never had too many local horses, or horses with ties to NM, in the big races. So I would love to see him take it. If I remember correctly, he's also bouncing back from a slight injury. His last 2 races I think were tune up races for this race. Saw him during some of his training stations during our local State Fair. Seemed to be running good again. So I can only hope.

Interesting choice on GP. True it is synthetic dirt. I haven't counted him out. I'll have to figure him into a trifecta some how. He's going out at the same odds as MTB (12-1).

Another 12-1 that I'm still watching is RK. He won a race that guaranteed him a spot in this race. I'll still doing a little research on him. Just got a strange gut feeling about him. I'll have to see about him closer to post time.

 

[OhioStateBuckeye]

I saw Mine that Bird in the West Virginia Derby. Never seen that track so crowded. Personally, he is the best horse I have ever seen race (my dad was lucky enough to see Secretariat at the Derby, so I doubt any horse will ever beat that in his eyes).

I was very excited, but he just didn't seem that impressive to me. Then again, I am not a professional, but the track was good that day and he was only racing against about 5 other horses. He started his late kick just before the last turn, but he just didn't have it in him that day.

 

[ZephyrHawk]

I saw Mine that Bird in the West Virginia Derby. Never seen that track so crowded. Personally, he is the best horse I have ever seen race (my dad was lucky enough to see Secretariat at the Derby, so I doubt any horse will ever beat that in his eyes).

I once got within a few feet of Cigar. That's my claim to fame.

 

[Hillbeans]

I grew up at our local race tracks. My parents love to go. So did my grandparents. So it is hard not to be a fan when you've been going to the races since you were 5 years old (I'm 37 now).

Are you sure we're not related I grew up at the Meadowlands, but my father much prefers Harness racing so we usually followed the Harness calendar and followed the bigger races there like the Hambletonian. I always prefered to go to Monmouth in the summer to see the Thoroughbred races instead.

 

[PrincessV]

Plus, he's got Calvin back on top, and that's got to be to his benefit.

And that's pretty much how I'm placing my bet - since my usual and foolish method of betting by looks rarely nets a win, (excepting sweet Rachel Alexandra), I'm going by jockey for #1. I can ride them, but I sure can't pick them, lol!

Mine That Bird
Quality Road
Regal Ransom (just for kicks)

 

[Thumper_Man]

If Summer Bird can't get it done on the synthetic this boy is my choice.

Good call on Gio Ponti. I took your advice here. Put him into a trifecta, unfortunately I didn't expect much from Twice Over. Guess I gotta eat my words here.

 

[ZephyrHawk]

Yes, well, I can't say I wasn't surprised about Zenyatta. I was. My top three came in second through 4th, so she pretty much screwed up my whole day. Ah well, good filly. Of course, now her fans will be absolutely impossible. They'll demand horse of the year honors.

 

[Jennasis]

Yes, well, I can't say I wasn't surprised about Zenyatta. I was. My top three came in second through 4th, so she pretty much screwed up my whole day. Ah well, good filly. Of course, now her fans will be absolutely impossible. They'll demand horse of the year honors.

Does she not deserve it? Who do you like?

 

[PrincessV]

OH MY HECK, that was amazing to watch! I wasn't betting on Z to start, but I sure was, mentally at least, by the halfway point of the race, lol! As for Horse of the Year - it's tough to argue against that kind of winning streak, no?

 

[ZephyrHawk]

Certainly I would give HOY to her in any other year, but not when put up against Rachel Alexandra. The world is a sadder place because those two will likely never meet up.

Yes, Zenyatta is unbeaten 14 for 14. She beat the record of the great Personal Ensign, and did it against the boys. However, this is the one and only time she's faced males, she did it on her home track, and she did it while she was a 5 year old and her best competitors were 3 (you make think the older the horse the harder it is for them to run, but that's not the case...Zenyatta is the equivalent of a 25 year old while Summer Bird, for instance, is a still gangly 13). Primarily she has run against mares and fillies. This past year, other than the Breeder's Cup Classic, she has raced 4 times against (mainly) the same contenders over and over again. Her toughest competition in most of those races was Life is Sweet, her stablemate and recent winner of the Ladies' Classic. She has not raced outside of California this year.

I thought Zenyatta had a good argument for being HOY last year. She has an even better argument this year. But her best competition for the award never faced her.

Rachel isn't perfect, she was second twice and sixth once as a two year old, but since November of last year has never lost a race. As a three year old she faced off against the best of her generation, beating stallions in in one of America's most honored Triple Crown races (the Preakness) and in another test of young sires (the Haskell). She also beat older males in the Woodward (a prominent stakes race that had never before been won by a female in its 54 year history). This past year she raced 8 times, at six different tracks (in Kentucky, Arkansas, Louisiana, Maryland, and New York). When she has raced females she has not just beaten them, but embarrased them, finishing 20+ lengths in front of the next horse in the Kentucky Oaks and 19+ lengths in front in the Mother Goose Stakes. In the Haskell, she demolished Summer Bird (who finished fourth, 3 lenghts behind Zenyatta in the Classic) finishing 6 lengths in front of him and the rest of the demoralized field.

I'd have a total love affair with the great brown beast that is Zenyatta, if I wasn't already sold on the fiesty bay filly from the East.

 

[PrincessV]

I'd have a total love affair with the great brown beast that is Zenyatta, if I wasn't already sold on the fiesty bay filly from the East.

LOL, I like it!

I hadn't realized she'd never before raced the boys. I loved the side-by-side size comparisons they showed of Z and a few of the males... WOW. I've ridden a 17+ HH and a 16 HH - that's a whole lot more horse! Made me wonder, too - why are the top boys so much smaller lately?

 

[Jennasis]

Certainly I would give HOY to her in any other year, but not when put up against Rachel Alexandra. The world is a sadder place because those two will likely never meet up.

Yes, Zenyatta is unbeaten 14 for 14. She beat the record of the great Personal Ensign, and did it against the boys. However, this is the one and only time she's faced males, she did it on her home track, and she did it while she was a 5 year old and her best competitors were 3 (you make think the older the horse the harder it is for them to run, but that's not the case...Zenyatta is the equivalent of a 25 year old while Summer Bird, for instance, is a still gangly 13). Primarily she has run against mares and fillies. This past year, other than the Breeder's Cup Classic, she has raced 4 times against (mainly) the same contenders over and over again. Her toughest competition in most of those races was Life is Sweet, her stablemate and recent winner of the Ladies' Classic. She has not raced outside of California this year.

I thought Zenyatta had a good argument for being HOY last year. She has an even better argument this year. But her best competition for the award never faced her.

Rachel isn't perfect, she was second twice and sixth once as a two year old, but since November of last year has never lost a race. As a three year old she faced off against the best of her generation, beating stallions in in one of America's most honored Triple Crown races (the Preakness) and in another test of young sires (the Haskell). She also beat older males in the Woodward (a prominent stakes race that had never before been won by a female in its 54 year history). This past year she raced 8 times, at six different tracks (in Kentucky, Arkansas, Louisiana, Maryland, and New York). When she has raced females she has not just beaten them, but embarrased them, finishing 20+ lengths in front of the next horse in the Kentucky Oaks and 19+ lengths in front in the Mother Goose Stakes. In the Haskell, she demolished Summer Bird (who finished fourth, 3 lenghts behind Zenyatta in the Classic) finishing 6 lengths in front of him and the rest of the demoralized field.

I'd have a total love affair with the great brown beast that is Zenyatta, if I wasn't already sold on the fiesty bay filly from the East.

I'm going to give you a "hold on thar partner.." on this call.

At FIVE years old, Zenyatta has taken a physical beating on her body (joints, muscles) far above what her three year old competitors have. The fact that at that relatively advanced age, she is able to best the BEST of the younger crowd, is amazing. She may be 25 compared to their 13, but she is a battle scarred 25 over their unscathed...for the most part...13.

I agree that Rachel Alexandra is top notch, and I would LOVE to see a match race (if such things still occurred), but how do you argue with perfection?

 

[MickeyMouseGal]

How do their times compare (Zeyanetta and Rachel Alexandra)? I would love to see a match race as well, but it will probably never happen.

Eta: How is the horse that flipped out at the starting gate?

 

[ZephyrHawk]

I agree that Rachel Alexandra is top notch, and I would LOVE to see a match race (if such things still occurred), but how do you argue with perfection?

I don't. But I don't give it that much attention either. Pepper's Pride was a great racemare. She retired last year a perfect 19 for 19. She never raced outside of New Mexico and raced almost exclusively in state bred filly and mare stakes races. Does that mean she's better than Man o' War, who famously lost one race as a two year old? Or than Secretariat, who lost a great number of times during his storied career? Or even than Lady's Secret, a famous racemare who won horse of the year, tried the boys numerous time, and was not always successful? No, of course not. Being undefeated is a great achievement. An awesome achievement. But sometimes it has a lot to do with the competition you choose to face. Sure, Zenyatta's now proven she could probably have been racing with the boys all along, but the question then becomes "Why didn't she?"

 

[Hillbeans]

What is amazing is how Zenyatta almost fell coming out of the starting gate, was dead last for the first 1/4 of the race and still came back to win. What a great race! I think she deserves HOTY

 

[ZephyrHawk]

How do their times compare (Zeyanetta and Rachel Alexandra)? I would love to see a match race as well, but it will probably never happen.

Eta: How is the horse that flipped out at the starting gate?

First, Quality Road, who was gate scratched from the Classic, is apparently fine. He didn't manage to hurt himself, however, I'd like to give props to the gate worker who held on to him. He saved that horse's life, at great personal risk! If he had let go, with the blinders still on QR...I hate to think what would have happened on live tv.

As to their times...I couldn't tell you. It's not just distances that are an issue, Z's raced mainly on synthetics and RA on traditional dirt. Plus, a number of RA's races have been in the slop. However:

Zenyatta- 2009 Vanity Invitational Handicap (1 1/8 mile)- 1:48.15
Rachel- 2009 Woodward Stakes (1 1/8 mile)- 1:48.29

Those were their two last races over the same distance and...yeah, you can't separate em.

 

[ZephyrHawk]

What is amazing is how Zenyatta almost fell coming out of the starting gate, was dead last for the first 1/4 of the race and still came back to win. What a great race! I think she deserves HOTY

She's a "closer". If she hadn't been dead last at the beginning there would have been something seriously wrong.