Boycotting the NFL

[TAX GUY]

Clearly ALL police officers should mind their own business and not do anything to anyone.

Perhaps in the Garner case, they should have used a taser on him to get him to comply.... or a baton......or pepper spray. Obviously NONE of these other methods would have had any ill impact on him. Doesn't matter that he had other health issues that any of the other methods could have had a bad outcome. That cop should serve life in prison for doing his job. Just because a suspect doesn't comply and resists doesn't give any cop the right to do their job (to get the situation under control and the suspect in custody). Shame on him!

 

[penn19]

No, they are supposed to be Trained in alternative methods. They are supposed to be professional, not thugs. Right now they are no better then the gestapo. If you cannot make an arrest without killing someone find a new career. I rather keep the NFL and boycott the cops. Ok I'll chalk this up to we won't agree.

One of the reasons no one on philly cooperates with the police, not a soul trust them.

Ive been to Philly many times. I trust the cops way more than I trust a portion of its residents.

 

[luvsJack]

Clearly ALL police officers should mind their own business and not do anything to anyone.

Perhaps in the Garner case, they should have used a taser on him to get him to comply.... or a baton......or pepper spray. Obviously NONE of these other methods would have had any ill impact on him. Doesn't matter that he had other health issues that any of the other methods could have had a bad outcome. That cop should serve life in prison for doing his job. Just because a suspect doesn't comply and resists doesn't give any cop the right to do their job (to get the situation under control and the suspect in custody). Shame on him!

And where did anyone say they should do nothing? Where did anyone say they should "mind their own business"?

Cops take down people every day without going against the policy of their department and with keeping the life of the person they are arresting in mind. This man clearly told them "I can't breathe" that is a pretty big red flag to tell them they need to access the situation.

They can and do take people down physically without pressing their chest to the point of not being able to breathe and without using choke holds. They do not have to go from that to batons or tazers. No reason to get all extreme about it.

He didn't do his job correctly and someone died. He made a mistake. Or made the wrong choice. I am not saying he should go to jail for the rest of his life that's not up to me. But I do believe that something should happen to him as a result of this.

 

[JanaDee]

No, they are supposed to be Trained in alternative methods. They are supposed to be professional, not thugs. Right now they are no better then the gestapo. If you cannot make an arrest without killing someone find a new career. I rather keep the NFL and boycott the cops. Ok I'll chalk this up to we won't agree. One of the reasons no one on philly cooperates with the police, not a soul trust them.

One cop that didn't follow protocol does not the gestapo make. Good god.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

Originally Posted by DizBelle
Correct. It could have also been prevented if Eric Gardner did not resist the officers. They won't use a choke hold or any other type of hold if you don't give them a reason to.

Domestic abusers always say similar things. And it's always something trumped up that the victim did wrong when in reality the victim did nothing to warrant what they got from these sociopaths. Resisting arrest doesn't call for the death penalty. And there really wasn't much resistance going on.

If you eliminate the compression to the neck, death still could have been the result. I would suggest that if your health is compromised to begin with, maybe giving cause to be physically wrestled to the ground is a risk and maybe one you shouldn't take. I suppose Mr. Garner was willing to take that risk even if it ended in his death.

Well yes, if you enter fantasyville and pretend that everything the cops did to the guy didn't happen, then he must have died of his own accord.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Clearly ALL police officers should mind their own business and not do anything to anyone.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

"The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position."

Replacing the argument "the officer shouldn't have used a choke hold because it was banned" with "no police officer should ever touch anybody" is, without a doubt, a Straw Man fallacy.

You want to debate, at least be reasonable about it.

All I am saying is that Garner should not have had a choke hold put on him because it was banned. I didn't even say he should be charged with murder. He should be reprimanded for using a banned restraint technique. Perhaps he should have have been tried for involuntary manslaughter. He might have been found innocent. The biggest problem was with the process. There was no indictment. The don't actually understand whether involuntary manslaughter was an available option. If it wasn't, that's an issue with how the prosecutor presented the case.

Since I am not a LEO, nor do I know all of the policies in place for the NYC police department, I don't have an answer to what should have been done. What I do know is what I read regarding this case, which indicates the move that was used was banned 11 years ago. It seems rather obvious to me that there are other means of restraining a suspect.

 

[DizBelle]

Do you seriously believe those are the only two choices?

Cause a man to die or let him go?

Reckon how all those criminals got in jail without dying? I find it hard to believe that every last one of them went without resisting.

Garner was 6 foot 3 inches and 350 lbs. I can't find any stats on the size of Officer Pantaleo but by appearance he look a few inches shorter and far lighter.

What should he have done? He informs Garner that he's going to arrest him and attempts to apprehend him. Garner backs away and swats at him. Pantaleo tries again, and Garner backs away again and swats at him again and tells the office not to touch him. Now what? Does this just go back and forth forever until one side gets tired and gives up?

 

[DizBelle]

And where did anyone say they should do nothing? Where did anyone say they should "mind their own business"?

Cops take down people every day without going against the policy of their department and with keeping the life of the person they are arresting in mind. This man clearly told them "I can't breathe" that is a pretty big red flag to tell them they need to access the situation.

They can and do take people down physically without pressing their chest to the point of not being able to breathe and without using choke holds. They do not have to go from that to batons or tazers. No reason to get all extreme about it.

He didn't do his job correctly and someone died. He made a mistake. Or made the wrong choice. I am not saying he should go to jail for the rest of his life that's not up to me. But I do believe that something should happen to him as a result of this.

Re the bolded: It could have also been an attempt by the suspect to overtake the officers and get and opportunity to escape.

 

[DizBelle]

Domestic abusers always say similar things. And it's always something trumped up that the victim did wrong when in reality the victim did nothing to warrant what they got from these sociopaths. Resisting arrest doesn't call for the death penalty.



Well yes, if you enter fantasyville and pretend that everything the cops did to the guy didn't happen, then he must have died of his own accord.

Of course he didn't die of his own accord but he did have a MAJOR part in it. There are many, many things Eric Garner could have done (or not done) to avoid the end result of death.

 

[Oreo Cookie]

Doesn't matter. Don't give the police a reason to "get physical" with you and physical injury won't happen.

From what I can find, the official cause of death was:

Garner's death was found by the New York City Medical Examiner's Office to be a result of compression to the neck, compression to the body, and prone positioning, along with asthma, heart disease and obesity as contributing factors. There was no damage to the windpipe or neck bones.

If you eliminate the compression to the neck, death still could have been the result. I would suggest that if your health is compromised to begin with, maybe giving cause to be physically wrestled to the ground is a risk and maybe one you shouldn't take. I suppose Mr. Garner was willing to take that risk even if it ended in his death.

I guess the police should have just said, "You don't want us to touch you? Ok, then go along your merry way and we'll leave you alone."

Garner was 6 foot 3 inches and 350 lbs. I can't find any stats on the size of Officer Pantaleo but by appearance he look a few inches shorter and far lighter.

What should he have done? He informs Garner that he's going to arrest him and attempts to apprehend him. Garner backs away and swats at him. Pantaleo tries again, and Garner backs away again and swats at him again and tells the office not to touch him. Now what? Does this just go back and forth forever until one side gets tired and gives up?

Read this article, and thought of you:

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-30340632

If only we turned our attention on those who are responsible. Had Officer Daniel Pantaleo not choked Eric Garner, the father and husband would be alive today.

Had Officer Pantaleo listened to his pleas, Garner would be alive today.

Had the other four officers interceded, Garner would be alive today.

There is plenty of blame to go around. The NYPD's embrace of stop-and-frisk policies rooted in the "broken windows" method of policing is a co-conspirator worthy of public scrutiny and outrage.

Yet, we focus on Eric Garner's choices.

 

[DizBelle]

Read this article, and thought of you:

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-30340632

If only we turned our attention on those who are responsible. Had Officer Daniel Pantaleo not choked Eric Garner, the father and husband would be alive today.

Had Officer Pantaleo listened to his pleas, Garner would be alive today.

Had the other four officers interceded, Garner would be alive today.

There is plenty of blame to go around. The NYPD's embrace of stop-and-frisk policies rooted in the "broken windows" method of policing is a co-conspirator worthy of public scrutiny and outrage.

Yet, we focus on Eric Garner's choices.

If Eric Garner had not resisted arrest, Officer Pantaleo would not to have had to employ any of the physical measures to apprehend him.

If Eric Garner had not resisted arrest, there would have been no pleas necessary.

If Eric Garner had not resisted arrest, there would have been no reason for other officers to intercede.

Eric Garner's resistance was the first domino in this sequence of events.

 

[Oreo Cookie]

If Eric Garner had not resisted arrest, Officer Pantaleo would not to have had to employ any of the physical measures to apprehend him.

If Eric Garner had not resisted arrest, there would have been no pleas necessary.

If Eric Garner had not resisted arrest, there would have been no reason for other officers to intercede.

Eric Garner's resistance was the first domino in this sequence of events.

And you made my point. Of course, in your eyes it's all Garner's fault. You are the people they wrote about in the article.

FYI, look at the stats for grand jury indictments. What percentage of ordinary citizens are indicted by grand jury proceedings, and what percentage of police officers are indicted. There is a major problem with the system, and it needs to change.

There needs to be independent prosecutors in charge of police officer shootings, especially when the other person was unarmed. State/local prosecutors need to work hand-in-hand with the police, so they are biased and need to maintain a good relationship. The system is flawed.

And for the record, I believe most police are good, but the bad apples need to be dealt with, and the system needs to be addressed and changed.

 

[olwyngdh]

Of course he didn't die of his own accord but he did have a MAJOR part in it. There are many, many things Eric Garner could have done (or not done) to avoid the end result of death.

She burned dinner, so of course he got mad. It is her own fault he hit her, she could have avoided it.

If she hadn't been wearing that/drinking/walking alone she wouldn't have got raped.

If he hadn't talked back, his mother wouldn't have had to beat him.

 

[Airship Ariadne]

Doesn't matter. Don't give the police a reason to "get physical" with you and physical injury won't happen.

You know what I find funny, THIS attitude is often espoused by the same people that will also say "from my cold dead hand" when talking about banning assault rifles...so even they don't really believe it.

Let's be clear here...Garner was suspected of selling individual cigarettes, and thereby not paying city taxes...there was NO reason the cops should have been "arresting" him, taking him into custody..they might have been fine writing him a ticket...had this been 1870's Boston, the Sons of Liberty would be demanding prosecution and throwing cigarettes into the harbor.

 

[OurBigTrip]

She burned dinner, so of course he got mad. It is her own fault he hit her, she could have avoided it.

If she hadn't been wearing that/drinking/walking alone she wouldn't have got raped.

If he hadn't talked back, his mother wouldn't have had to beat him.

False analogies. In all three examples, nothing illegal was being done.

To me,the Eric Garner case is much less clear cut than the Michael Brown case, as the video shows that the police officer was using a banned choke hold. But let's not pretend that Eric Garner was some law abiding guy walking down the street, minding his own business when the police decided to kill him. Should there have been an indictment? Maybe. But Eric Garner, like Michael Brown before him, made bad decisions. Break the law, resist arrest...it rarely ends in death, but it rarely ends well either.

 

[Airship Ariadne]

She burned dinner, so of course he got mad. It is her own fault he hit her, she could have avoided it.

If she hadn't been wearing that/drinking/walking alone she wouldn't have got raped.

If he hadn't talked back, his mother wouldn't have had to beat him.

Exactly.

 

[Oreo Cookie]

She burned dinner, so of course he got mad. It is her own fault he hit her, she could have avoided it.

If she hadn't been wearing that/drinking/walking alone she wouldn't have got raped.

If he hadn't talked back, his mother wouldn't have had to beat him.

We've become a society of victim shaming and blaming.

You know what I find funny, THIS attitude is often espoused by the same people that will also say "from my cold dead hand" when talking about banning assault rifles...so even they don't really believe it.

Let's be clear here...Garner was suspected of selling individual cigarettes, and thereby not paying city taxes...there was NO reason the cops should have been "arresting" him, taking him into custody..they might have been fine writing him a ticket...had this been 1870's Boston, the Sons of Liberty would be demanding prosecution and throwing cigarettes into the harbor.

Yep!

What will people say about Akai Gurley? I'm sure there are people that will say he shouldn't of been in the stairwell. The NYPD has acknowledged that he was doing nothing illegal at the time. It looks like the rookie PO panicked and discharged his weapon, which is not acceptable. But what is even worse, is that the PO and his partner went silent for 6 minutes. The rookie's first choice was to text his union rep, not render aid to a man he just shot accidentally. At a minimum both cops should lose their jobs and be held criminally negligent.

 

[OurBigTrip]

Let's be clear here...Garner was suspected of selling individual cigarettes, and thereby not paying city taxes...there was NO reason the cops should have been "arresting" him, taking him into custody..they might have been fine writing him a ticket...

Apparently in NYC, unlicensed sellers in possession of untaxed cigarettes are subject to arrest. Why would they just give him a ticket?

 

[Airship Ariadne]

We've become a society of victim shaming and blaming.

Well, only if the victim is a member of the minority or woman.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

You know what I find funny, THIS attitude is often espoused by the same people that will also say "from my cold dead hand" when talking about banning assault rifles...so even they don't really believe it.

Let's be clear here...Garner was suspected of selling individual cigarettes, and thereby not paying city taxes...there was NO reason the cops should have been "arresting" him, taking him into custody..they might have been fine writing him a ticket...had this been 1870's Boston, the Sons of Liberty would be demanding prosecution and throwing cigarettes into the harbor.

Out of curiosity, is that the law in NYC--that this was only a ticketable offense?

I know you said there was no reason--but does the law agree with you, all else aside?