Born Again Christians Thread-No Bashing please

[ead79]

I think a lot of the problem of why people may have a hard time with some of Paul's writings is that they don't understand the context in which he is writing them. By that I mean that many things were written to specific churches, to sort of bring them back on the path from which they may have strayed. If you don't know the history/problems of those specific churches, it can be hard to understand what Paul is talking about.

I very much agree with this. I also think that some of Paul’s statements are the easiest to take out of context. In other words, the entire point of what he was saying needs to be looked at, not just one verse in isolation. Since my view is that the entire Bible is the divinely inspired word of God, I take Paul’s letters to be of equal importance/validity as the gospels, Old Testament, and rest of the New Testament. Another reason I think that some people have issue with Paul in particular are the counter-cultural aspects of what he says.

Beauty, welcome to the thread! You are at a very exciting point in life as a relatively new believer! I do agree with you that many people take divorce much, much too lightly. I think some people choose that route instead of getting counseling. Of course, some people get counseling and still end up getting divorced. I have mixed feelings on this a bit, as I do believe that adultery, abuse, and death are the only reasons for divorce. However, I don’t really see what someone can do if their spouse chooses to leave them and is unwilling to go to counseling or get help to work things out. You can’t force the other person to stay with you, so I don’t really see how the person who was left could be at fault. I also think it’s important not to overemphasize this issue, since divorcees are no more a sinner than I am. We all do things outside the perfect will of God.

 

[Beauty]

You are right. Thats another weird thing to me that a person who says a cuss word is just as guilty as a person who commits murder. That sins are all equal. Thats so weird to me. I do understand that you have to honestly confess and honestly repent your sins to be forgiven. Its all so hard to understand, although I do believe it with all my heart.

 

[Tasha+Scott]

I've never been on this thread but I think I should have posed my Divorce thread here....LOL! We are taking Creative Counterparts on our Thursday night small class and it teaches STAY TOGETHER PERIOD which is what brought on my thread yesterday. I think I'm probably hated now and I'm so unconfrontational. So what do you all think of the teachings of NO DIVORCE with the exception of Death and Adultery?

Well, I think divorce is far too easy these days. I truly think a lot of people take a vow thinking that if they get bored of being married or hit one rocky patch that they always have the divorce option so why not get married? There's an easy way out, after all. But I take marriage seriously and was married at 18 knowing that it was forever unless there was abuse against me or my children or adultery or he dies. Those are my only deal breakers. I have unconditional love for my Dh and yes, we have had some rocky patches ourselves but every marriage does. Our love and committment for eachother as well as our strong faith in God has helped us not only get through every obstacle together, it has also made us stronger as a couple. I truly love my Dh more now than when we first were married and we are also best friends. I believe it has also helped us learn to be better parents now and in the future by sticking together through the hard times instead of giving up and calling it quits. Anyway, those are my beliefs regarding divorce and I know not everyone will agree but it is the way I feel about it.

ETA: I meant to say that if my Dh were to leave me and I had done all I know to do then there is really nothing to do but let him leave. I can't make him stay! I think in that instance God will be judging him for his stupidity (ha ha, I say that b/c why would he want to leave ME?! ) and will forgive me b/c he knows I did try and there was nothing else I could do in that case. Does that make sense?

 

[carlossanta]

My daughter and I are going to Disney sept 2-10 05 and I want to go to church on Sunday, but I don't want to rent a car while there (we'll be onsite.) Does anyone know of a church that picks people up at the resort for services? I value going to church even on vacation. Last time we went we had a car, and went to a LARGE baptist church. Now that they don't have services onsite, where do we go, what do we do?

 

[Wishing on a star]

Beauty,

I can see that this whole divorce issue is kind of troubling and confusing to you. Let's look at it like this... YES, it is the perfect will of God that a man and a woman marry forever. That is the ideal... The Bible does state this clearly! I mean, let's face it, anything else is just really sad, and ultimately wrong.... It is really simple, God is LOVE, and God is RIGHT!!!!

However, we, as humans, simply are NOT the perfect ideal! You see, it is not either 'cussing', or 'murder', or any other specific hurtful actions, that are sins... By our own very nature, we all fall short of the glory of God. Everything about us, us following our own human desires and ambitions, our shortcomings, etc...... just the fact that we are HUMAN, this is what makes us sinners. Not any one direct action. While commiting a sin may be an 'action', sin itself is a 'condition'. It is actually a 'Sin' to try to define sin, and to judge sin (calling others sinners), etc..... THAT is up to God.

And, yes, since we do fall far short of God's perfect ideal... Bad marriages do occur. It sounds to me as if the husband in your example is not a 'Christian'. It sounds like he knows nothing of Christian ideals and commandments. It seems that the wife can not, in this situation, be 'Christian' while her husband demands otherwise. In simple terms, how can these Christian ideals and commandments even apply here? How can you apply Christian ideals to a marriage with a non-Christian.

I am no expert on this particular subject... but I think that your friend may be getting some 'skewed' input and advice????? I mean, if the Church is telling your friend that she should stay in this awful, empty, emotionally void and abusive situation, with an unbeliever, because otherwise, she would be committing a sin... Well, goodness gracious! She, like everyone else is already a big sinner! Would it be considered a 'Sin' that she married an unbeliever to begin with??? Only GOD is your friends judge and jury...

What does the Bible say about being 'unequally yolked' with unbelievers????

I hope this helps!!!!

 

[Albertan mom]

Welcome Beauty!

I was taught that you can only divorce because of the three A's:
Adultery
Abuse
Alcoholism

I believe there are some gray areas though, as others have posted. Such as: drugs, incest, etc....

I know a nice quiet lady in our church who is married to a guy who on the outside, seems like a great man. She has shared (in confidence) that he is really into pornography, and child porn too. That is disgusting to me, one of the worst sins ever. They have a 11 year old son and a 4 year old daughter. That to me is just scary. I don't think I could stay with a man like that, I would be too concerned for my kids sake. I would think in that situation I would leave the man, seperate, demand counselling for his issues, pray my heart out, and wait. If he didn't stop-I don't know. If he did, then reconciliation could take place.

My parents divorced because my dad did all three of the A's. My mom always felt so guilty for divorcing him, because she became a Christian right after they split and knew divorce was wrong. Do I think she did the wrong thing? NO WAY. (she now realizes it was necessary)

I think both spouses have to work their butts off to make a marriage work. Your spouse should be your best friend, lover, confidante, support, your other half! A happy marriage equals happy kids too, so your marriage should be your #1 priority.

I really feel terrible for your friend Beauty. If I was you, I would tell her to work extra hard. Try to talk to him about why he isn't speaking to her, sharing their bedroom etc.. there has to be a reason! She will have to be extra nice to him. There is a reason why he is doing this, it is up to her to find out why, and to try to make the marriage work. If he won't try, she will have to give it her all. (lots of pressure on her which is unfortunate, but she will have to, to try to save her marriage!) I will pray for her, I can't imagine how terribly lonely she must be.

 

[disneymom3]

Nope he isn't talking to her at all. He works on a tow-boat and is gone for 2 weeks then home for 2 weeks then gone again. She is a super sweet girl and I feel horrible for her. I'm a fairly new Christian though and don't feel it my place to question the teachings of the Bible and what the older Christian ladies are saying to her. I don't know about the Bible enough yet to dictate to anyone. I'm just so confused on it. They tell her to stay no matter what as long as he isn't abusive or committing adultery and I think she should be happy. I think I'm trying to understand God's take on this, but of course we will never fully understand God.

This is a hard subject. My sister's DH left her about a year ago after having pretty much not talked to her for a year. They are still married though and she has not given up on her marriage. The interesting (and awe inspiring) thing is that she is happy. She decided sometime last summer that she could be miserable if she chose to, but that is not what she wanted. She decided to just be open to her husband and be there for him and to continue in prayer. In the meantime, she is doing things for herself and making herself feel valued and more complete. She is definitely happy while many in this situation could not imagine being so. She does not believe that it is God's will that any marriage fail and yet she also knows that there is nothing else she can be doing at this time. He will not go to counselling, but they do talk on occassion.

I also do not think that marriages can be based on "happiness" so much. There have been times in my own marriage that neither of us has been happy. In fact, there was a time several years back when I told my husband. "I want to leave you, but I won't because I said I wouldn't and I made that commitment not only to you, but to God. But I want you to know that I want to leave." We were going through some really bad stuff at the time and trust me, if any marriage should have ended in divorce, it should have been ours. However, through God's grace we stayed through it all and OH, I cannot possibly tell you how grateful I am for that! I now say with pride that I have the most amazing husband in the world. I totally adore him, have faith in him and know that no matter what, he is mine and I can count on him. He has his failings (as do I!!) but I couldn't imagine life without him.

Elisabeth--loved your post about why BACs have trouble in what people perceive of them. Very on target.

Hound--I think that one of the reasons people have issues with Paul is that he just says it like it is. Sometimes things that don't mesh with how we want to believe. He spent many of his letters calling people to task and we still need it even though we don't want to hear it. I agree with Aidensmom (I think it was) who also said that you have to understand the context. But I also think that his words apply to us today in whatever context we are in.

 

[Tasha+Scott]

I probably have a different defination of adultery in this context than most people do, so I don't expect a lot of agreement. I see it, besides the literal sex with another person, as when one spouse is, in essence, "married" to something other than their spouse, be that alchohol, drugs, pornography, strip clubs, something that has taken over their lives and they are unwilling or unable to give up. If spending all night on the computer on porn sites is more important than sleeping with your spouse, I would consider that cheating on that spouse, or adultery. There are a lot of these types of things that goes on within Christian marriages. Amy Grant divorced her husband because of his drug problems. Sure I think that you should try, and try hard, to overcome these things, but sometimes the spouse with the problem is not willing to overcome them.

Actually, I should have added in my post that I agree with you. But I consider there to be lots of different types of abuse too, not just physical. For example, if my Dh were blowing his paycheck every week at a strip club and making it to where we were unable to adequately feed our child due to his careless, selfish spending...well, I would not only consider that adultery (lusting after strippers) but abuse for our child (not having enough to eat b/c of his strip club addiction). Thankfully this is only an example and not an issue for us. The point is this really is a difficult subject with lots of gray areas. I know what I believe but like I said I do believe there are many categories to adultery and abuse. But the Bible also feels Christians should marry other Christians. A lot of times that doesn't happen in today's society which does lead to bad marriages and in those cases I feel a lot of times divorce is necessary as abuse and adultery (by my standards, not just physical) come into play. This really is a difficult subject though and I am not at all claiming to have all the answers!

 

[hiscup]

Actually, I should have added in my post that I agree with you. But I consider there to be lots of different types of abuse too, not just physical. For example, if my Dh were blowing his paycheck every week at a strip club and making it to where we were unable to adequately feed our child due to his careless, selfish spending...well, I would not only consider that adultery (lusting after strippers) but abuse for our child (not having enough to eat b/c of his strip club addiction). Thankfully this is only an example and not an issue for us. The point is this really is a difficult subject with lots of gray areas. I know what I believe but like I said I do believe there are many categories to adultery and abuse. But the Bible also feels Christians should marry other Christians. A lot of times that doesn't happen in today's society which does lead to bad marriages and in those cases I feel a lot of times divorce is necessary as abuse and adultery (by my standards, not just physical) come into play. This really is a difficult subject though and I am not at all claiming to have all the answers!

hello group !!

we must always be careful not to grant the devil an open door, lest he walk right through. he prowls the earth like a roaring lion looking for souls he can devour.

 

[Albertan mom]

Has anyone seen Mighty Joe Young or The Amazing Panda Adventure?
Just want to know if they are appropriate for a 7 and 10 year old. I usually always look up movie reviews on Family.org (Plugged In) but these weren't on there, as they are too old I think.
I never saw the back of the box, so don't even know what they are about. They were rented for the kids, they are both PG, but I would like to know beforehand so I don't have to shut it off after something bad comes on!!
Thanks

 

[lawman1986]

have you noticed how christian churches are struggling with the issue of Gay lifestyles and trying to reconcile that with Christ's teachings. the episcopal church openly ordains active Gay priests and pastors who are actively engagning in Gay fornication. The other christian churches are struggling with this issue, and some risk fragmentation altogether. the baptist and born agian faiths see homosexuality as written in the bible. God's infallible word calls it fornication, sinful and an abomination. our present society tries to sugar coat this issue, while others try to bury their head in the sand. dont get me wrong, gays are not to be hated and abused, but as sinners, like the rest of us need to repent of their ways and turn away from sin. unfortunately, liberals and politicians have made it fashionable for Gay sex and the lifestyle to be socially acceptable. what say you, christians !! speak your mind, whatever it may be.

 

[Albertan mom]

Our pastor (Baptist) actually touched on that today. How with Hollywood being so supportive of the gay lifestyle (Will and Grace, Queer Eye, etc...) how in a few more decades, it will be just another way of life. Nobody will blink an eye at the gay couple next door. Or the two men in the grocery store holding hands. Or the child in your childs class with two mommies. I agree, we can't be hateful or abusive to them, and we must show them love.

It is getting harder and harder. My son, 7, asked me the other day what "Gay" meant. (the kid across the street told him "my mom says church is gay and a waste of time" (yikes!) Not fun to explain to a young child something like that. Then to tell him that God doesn't approve of it. Then he asks "Then why do people do it, if they know it makes God sad?"
*sigh.....

 

[lawman1986]

yeah, it is the lifestyle not the people, I agree with that. its a big problem in the USA. the gay agenda has permeated every facet of life. God is not only sad but probably angry has well, since we have ignored, blashemed and mocked his infallible word. May He forgive us !

 

[LukenDC]

Sexual orientation is rooted in biology----the scientific evidence is overwhelming. IF God exists, then he creates homosexuals just as he creates heterosexuals. Christians need to repent for the centuries of abuse that they have heaped on homosexuals and other minority groups---torture, imprisonment, sadistic executions, institutionalization. Christians have contributed many good things to society, but Christian history is also stained with blood and shame.

As for "hate the sin, love the sinner," how about "hate the ignorance, love the fundamentalist?"

 

[LukenDC]

yeah, it is the lifestyle not the people, I agree with that. its a big problem in the USA. the gay agenda has permeated every facet of life. God is not only sad but probably angry has well, since we have ignored, blashemed and mocked his infallible word. May He forgive us !

God is angry at the USA, which has more churches per capita than any other country in the world?? Which has the highest percentage of religious people of all the industrialized nations?

What sort of a message is God sending when the Bible Belt has more natural disasters than any other region of America? The Boy Scouts have kicked out atheists and gays, and yet they continue to have one tragedy after another. Conservative Christians certainly do not appear any more blessed than their fellow Americans. Perhaps God is angry at the callousness of those who act in his name.

 

[Albertan mom]

I don't think Christians are more 'blessed' then Non-Christians. Christians have their houses burn down. They get diseases. They have accidents. They have tornadoes. -- Just as non-Christians do. We don't claim to be the chosen or protected ones. We just deal with these disasters differently than non-Christians do.

I Peter 4:12
DEAR FRIENDS, DO NOT BE SURPRISED AT THE PAINFUL TRIAL YOU ARE SUFFERING, AS THOUGH SOMETHING STRANGE WERE HAPPENING TO YOU. BUT REJOICE THAT YOU PARTICIPATE IN THE SUFERINGS OF CHRIST, SO THAT YOU MAY BE OVERJOYED WHEN HIS GLORY IS REVEALED.

Why did we get a water leak in our front yard that is going to cost us thousands of dollars, and my non-Christian neighbors who have the same bad pipe as us haven't had any problems? And because of it, we can't go to WDW in October? I don't know. But I don't see the BIG picture as God does, and I have to trust that there is a reason for it.


Another reminder for us Christians that are always getting harassed because of our beliefs:

I PETER 4:14
IF YOU ARE INSULTED BECAUSE OF THE NAME OF CHRIST, YOU ARE BLESSED, FOR THE SPRIRIT OF GLORY AND OF GOD RESTS ON YOU.

Have a good night!

 

[luvthatduke]

lawman1986, just wondering where you've been lurking
before posting here?
Not gonna accuse you of anything, mind you,
just call me suspicious that your first posts are on this thread,
about a controversial subject that has been raised before
(in fact I asked your question in the midst of a discussion
early on and everyone ignored it).
You didn't even give us a "How Do You Do,"
just WHAMMO with the big "G" debate.
My apologies if you are sincere...

Before I *finally* chime in on the divorce question,
I want to say thank you to the Lord
for keeping my mouth shut and allowing Elisabeth
to give a gracious answer to Aidensmom's post
about how BAC's are seen on the DIS boards & elsewhere.
As usual, the Holy Spirit was evident in your reply, Elisabeth!

I found the discussion on divorce interesting,
seems most of us agree on the fundamentals,
but I really think many Bible-teaching pastors
have their hands full nowadays as to how to
counsel some couples... Really so much grey area, you know?
I think the pornography/drug = adultery argument has merit,
but that would be a difficult line to walk with someone
to help the victim understand God's will.
Ah, to have the wisdom of Solomon....

 

[lmhall2000]

Luken...I am deeply sorry for the way you feel..yes, as Christians we are commanded to love the sinner and hate the sin. But we are also commanded to not blaspheme the Lord. When You promote a sin I feel that is blasphemy. I am overweight, I don't promote overeating as the way I was "made" while many will say that genetics predisposes me to being overweight....because this gene or that gene makes me more prone to having low thryoid production or a slow process to metabolize. I look at overeating the same way I look at any sin, lying, theft, murder...it's against God's design for us. If it were not clearly stated in the Bible as a sin, then perhaps we could have a disagreement...but it's there. That sin separates us from our God. I'm trying to put this as non-affrontish as I can and still share that I love all sinners...I just can't be required by law or by public opinion to 'accept' that a sinful lifestyle is acceptable in God's eyes when he clearly states otherwise.
I'll rely on the Word of God to direct me, not political correctness.

Tara

 

[lawman1986]

God is angry at the USA, which has more churches per capita than any other country in the world?? Which has the highest percentage of religious people of all the industrialized nations?

What sort of a message is God sending when the Bible Belt has more natural disasters than any other region of America? The Boy Scouts have kicked out atheists and gays, and yet they continue to have one tragedy after another. Conservative Christians certainly do not appear any more blessed than their fellow Americans. Perhaps God is angry at the callousness of those who act in his name.

No, I am not saying God is angry at the USA, I dont even know for sure if is angry, I simply suggested he MAY be. Not angry at the USA but angry at some of the churches that have blashemed and preach heresy. as for the bible belt and the boy scouts, I dont think they have experienced more or less tragedy than other groups. "while we are in the world, we will have tribulation" as far as God being angry at those who act in his name, if you mean those who would hurt others, yes I agree. we are called to witness and not to judge, but part of witnessing is acknowledging God's word.

 

[lawman1986]

Sexual orientation is rooted in biology----the scientific evidence is overwhelming. IF God exists, then he creates homosexuals just as he creates heterosexuals. Christians need to repent for the centuries of abuse that they have heaped on homosexuals and other minority groups---torture, imprisonment, sadistic executions, institutionalization. Christians have contributed many good things to society, but Christian history is also stained with blood and shame.

As for "hate the sin, love the sinner," how about "hate the ignorance, love the fundamentalist?"

easy friend. this is simply a discussion about the bible. noone is suggesting punishing or hurting anyone. relax. by the way, christians have also been tortured, executed and saditically punished in their early days. I dont know if its fair to heap all those accusations on christians alone, I dont think thats fair.