Blink.....Blinkity......Blink

[Johnnie Fedora]

Had to really blink those eyes and do a double take once I looked at the 2003 points charts for the cruise.

Good News, Good News.......If you cruise (7 day) in the value season and stay in a catagory 9, you won't be gouged with the 4-14% point increase to cruise in 2003.

While I didn't review all the charts for each cruise and catagory, the points went up significantly for 2003, especially the regular season. I just don't get it. Does anyone have a sensible explanation??



The only thing I can think is that DVC is unable to rent out those points that people trade. I think we are almost being encouraged to rent out points ourselves and pay for other Disney options with cash. Any other ideas????? What's the future of these DC and DCL trades???

 

[din]

I am trying to plan for the next cruise too and I like to know the answer too. Found some old posting talking about the pro and cons of using points or rent it out....

It all seems so confusing at this time.

 

[larry_poppins]

My opinion regarding the DCL 2003 point charts is simple.

Demand for DCL and DVC is strong. Even in the recession people are lining up to take cruises and join DVC.

The demand for stays at WDW is tepid. Yes Port Orleans is reopening, but occupancy is still lower than 2000 and room rates have been discounted heavily since 9/11.

Disney doesn't need DVCers on the cruise. The option is still there, but it is costly to use points.

Like many people here I think of DVC as a membership that lets me use all of Walt Disney Attractions (except Tokyo) many resort offerings. I can still do this, but it is more and more an expensive use of points.

It is very clear that Disney Co. thinks of DVC members as being entitled to stay at DVC resorts for a reasonable amount of points. We are not members of Walt Disney Attractions. DVC is the main course. Anything beyond the DVC resorts is really gravy.

Just my 2 cents!

Larry

 

[DarthGoofy]

Well said Larry.

 

[din]

larry_poppins.... that is an interesting point of view and it is a point well taken.

 

[dougmatt]

But not really true.. Reservations at the non-DVC resorts are supposed made by exchanging DVC points for Reservation points (works backwards for Disney cash booking the resort). Reservation points are then used to book the hotel / cruise. There 'used' to be a one-to-one exchange of DVC points for reservation points. Since we know the price of a DVC point has risen, then Disney has either a) lowered the value of a reservation point (or effectively raised the number of reservation points required to book) or b) changed the one-to-one ratio between the points. OR C) Disney is working the inside game and effectively short changing DVC'rs by not following their own rules, but rather doing what suits their needs.

Does anyone know the answer on the ratio vs value question?

I know it sounds negative like a complaint, and don't get me wrong I REALLY like DVC, but if a studio that costs 14 points, is $255 + for rent... But I have to spend 25 points to rent a room at the Caribean Beach that runs $195 or less at the same time..... Where is the fair in that???????????????????

Someone is using my points to make money.. AND IT'S NOT ME!! The longer I own the more I begin to question these things.. LIKE Why are there no point reservations, but there are PLENTY of cash reservations in a DVC sold out resort on the ALL Holiday weeks??? That many people trading out for that exact week??? I don't think so!

 

[PKS44]

Originally posted by dougmatt
I know it sounds negative like a complaint, and don't get me wrong I REALLY like DVC, but if a studio that costs 14 points, is $255 + for rent... But I have to spend 25 points to rent a room at the Caribean Beach that runs $195 or less at the same time..... Where is the fair in that???????????????????

Someone is using my points to make money.. AND IT'S NOT ME!! The longer I own the more I begin to question these things.. LIKE Why are there no point reservations, but there are PLENTY of cash reservations in a DVC sold out resort on the ALL Holiday weeks??? That many people trading out for that exact week??? I don't think so!

Okay- I will try to explain. Your 25 points you use for the CBR go to CRO and those are used to make a RESERVATION at a DVC resort which is then sold as a cash reservation. This is probably why there are cash reservations available, CRO has booked the spots with their points and needs to try to sell those spots to get at least the $195 they are not getting from CBR because YOU are in the room......So say CRO is able to find a family to rent a studio for $255/night (which is not guaranteed to happen before the points expire and it is more likely that it will have to be discounted to a lower price epecially now with demand down and the additional competition from DVC renting points to non-members for the same resorts competing with CRO to rent out the DVC villas). Dean says that he heard they are only able to use about 75% of the points they get through the Reservations points system, so they have had to increase the points they get in hopes of making some proit or at least breaking even (and we know they want to do better than break even.

Paul

 

[dougmatt]

Thanks for your take on it...

I agree that the points we trade out are then sold as a cash reservation, but how is the date determined?

Real life example:

on Easter week (my example). I was unable to book BWV, VWL or OKW with points at any level, but they still had 10 cash studios, 4 cash 1BR's left just at BWV (the most popular cash site who knows how many they already booked!) Therefore I had to exchange out for CBR ressies at 25 (or 24 can't remember) a night...

In other words WHY were there so many cash ressie's available for that SPECIFIC time frame, but no points??? Were there that many members who traded out for that time frame into DISNEY hotels?? BEFORE the DVC's sold out?!?! Remember if the trade occured to non-DVC locations (ie interval) then those rooms would not be available through CRO... Hmm... I don't think it's likely that many people prefered other hotels to DVC's for that period... But maybe...

Also 75% occupancy rate for the reservation points is VERY HIGH for the hotel industry (Disney included). You are assuming they would have rented the CBR room if I hadn't traded into it.. I say not likely (except perhaps at Easter or another peak period). So if they are getting 75% on their cash rooms at the DVC resorts they are kicking serious butt with people wanting the home away from home locations being in higher demand apparently... This in exchange for rooms that would likely have been vacant ANYWAY...

Fact is reservation points (used to) = vacation points. Playing around with the valuation is Disney's way of getting bang for the buck. Hey more power to them. Supply and demand, if we demand and they have the only supply, then they can charge whatever they want. I can assure you though I will NEVER again exchange out to the CBR... What a WASTE!!! If I hadn't needed that exact timeframe at the last minute I never would have done it. Next time we'll go somewhere else. The cruise on the other hand.... I'll probably pay cash next time. I used points before, but the increases are a turn off. Problem is others will stay do it, and that will drive the costs up...

 

[larry_poppins]

I still believe that Disney does not need DVCers in their ships or in their WDW hotels. If we choose to spend our points there that is our business.

As for cruising. I have cruised twice already on points. If in the future I choose to cruise again and pay cash, I will start to consider Carnavel, Royal Carribean, and others. THey are often cheaper because they get profits from their gaming tables. I don't gamble but I would like an inexpensive curise. There are also two ports: Canaveral and Tampa. The itineraries are more varied than what Disney offers. Just more food for thought.

Larry

 

[Johnnie Fedora]

Last year we were finally able to afford DVC, and it is unforunate for us that we may never be able to cruise on points (or stay at the Poly) due to the excessive point increases since we have joined.

I think it was Dean that posted on a similiar thread that the DCL and DC are increasing sooooo much that many DVCers will be point priced right out. Then, DVC will cancel these "Disney exchanges" because no one is using them. Sounds like a Disney business model.

Think about it. If most DVCers own 200pts, even with banking and borrowing all their points, they still can't afford a trade into the DCL (with the exception of the steerage rooms).

We did our homework before purchasing. Based on information here and from our guide we realized that the "Disney trades" weren't the best use of points, but those options gave variety to the overall program. And, they did not have a history of **HUGE** increases.

I have no other way of looking at this except DVCers are paying top dollar rack rate for their DCL/DC point trades.

I tend to agree with Dougmatt's view on these trades. It's the captive audience business model. I love my DVC, but I don't love some of the recent program changes. As a vacationer, I think these **HUGE INCREASES** decrease the overall program value. Which is sad.

They will also result in my family spending less money at WDW to fit my business model.

 

[ripleysmom]

The big increase is why we are cruising Carnival instead of DCL next year. For a few hundred dollars more than it would have cost me through DVC, we are cruising for a week and I get to keep all of my points for the next 2 years!!

 

[Eeyore2U]

When we bought and then when we added on, we did to use our home resort(s). Based on these boards and it seems to be true, the use of points for WDW hotels and DCL are not a wise use of points. The only guarantees when we signed were home resort at 11 months and other resorts at 7 months.

If you owned DCL, wouldn't you want the customer paying real money @ top dollar?

 

[Lisa F]

I suspect that part of the reason that points for a cruise seem so ridiculous is that Disney values points differently than we do. We all know that we can rent them for about $10/point.

When we cruised on points last year, I checked our cruise reservation online right before we left and it showed the amount that DVC paid DCL for the reservation. It was about $200 more for 2 people than the current springtime magic promotion but far less than "full rack rates" and I believe when I divided the price they paid by the number of points I paid, the value of the points came out to something just over $6/point. When I figured out how much we were paying for our points, including interest that we are paying on the loan, that what we would spend on points total (including interest) divided by the number of years we had left before the end of the program and added annual dues for that year, we came up with a number that was pretty close to what disney paid per point for the cruise.

For us with the cruise we felt like we more or less "broke even." We didn't overpay tremendously for the cruise, knowing that the actual outlay of money that we made by DVC for the points that we used was roughly equal to what disney paid for the cruise. The price that DVC got for the cruise wasn't the best possible price but it was still a fair discount off of rack rates. I just figured out what the cash cruise we have booked would cost in points and it comes out to about $6.80/point (that is with a very nice early booking discount) which is about what I remember the value per point being for our last cruise.

I just think that the reason that the cost keeps going up is that DVC does not value the our points internally as highly as we do, knowing what our options are for using them (getting a $300+/night room for 9 points/night in some seasons or renting them for $10/point). The only thing disney ever promised to keep stable was the number of points required for DVC resorts.

Lisa

 

[Johnnie Fedora]

Lisa F,

Thanks for your DCL explanation. It's nice to find out how much DVC actually paid in $$$ for your cruise reservation. This is the vague area with these trades within the Disney system. When we trade for the DC or DCL, our points are traded for cash. So, if there is a profit made on the transaction, it appears to go to CRO since they get actual payment for the reservation. The balance does seem to tip in CRO's favor when they can rent a DVC studio for two nights and you can stay at CBR for one.

What a qwinky dink.

Does anyone have any firm dollar amount examples like Lias F's??

 

[gmboy95]

I look at this from a much more simplistic approach....As a season ticket holder for the New England Patriots, I feel like I am treated better by the owner of the team then say a guy who walks up and buys a ticket. Reason being, is that i have made a commitment that is much larger in scale then anyone else who is attending that game has...I get to be in the lottery for superbowl tickets, I get first dibs on playoff tickets etc......My financial commitment goes way beyond just the ticket. It allows the team to have a guaranteed income up front that allows them to make additional revenue by putting that money back into the product.

Now what does this have to do with DVC...Well it is simply the same in my mind. All of us have made a financial commitment to Disney that stretches way beyond what the occasional visitor can do...we have ponied up the bulk of our money up front, and have commited by contract to pay our dues for the next 40 years....this my friends is the definition of a windfall. Get all of the money up front and then you can make that money work for you....It is the same reason why i gaurantee you that the people who just won $300,000,000 million dollars in the lottery will take the immediate payout of half the money rather then the entire thing over 20 years....they can make more on their own.

This being said, I am of the camp that believes that Disney can and should go much much further in showing its appreciation for this long term commitment. remember a good businessman understands that although we may have given our money up front, we still have tens of thousands of dollars to spend while we are at the parks over the next 40 years, and we may be more inclined to spend that money if we felt that relationship was reciprocal.

sorry for the length

 

[Eeyore2U]

Originally posted by gmboy95
I look at this from a much more simplistic approach....As a season ticket holder for the New England Patriots, I feel like I am treated better by the owner of the team then say a guy who walks up and buys a ticket. Reason being, is that i have made a commitment that is much larger in scale then anyone else who is attending that game has...I get to be in the lottery for superbowl tickets, I get first dibs on playoff tickets etc......My financial commitment goes way beyond just the ticket. It allows the team to have a guaranteed income up front that allows them to make additional revenue by putting that money back into the product.

Now what does this have to do with DVC...Well it is simply the same in my mind. All of us have made a financial commitment to Disney that stretches way beyond what the occasional visitor can do...we have ponied up the bulk of our money up front, and have commited by contract to pay our dues for the next 40 years....this my friends is the definition of a windfall. Get all of the money up front and then you can make that money work for you....It is the same reason why i gaurantee you that the people who just won $300,000,000 million dollars in the lottery will take the immediate payout of half the money rather then the entire thing over 20 years....they can make more on their own.

This being said, I am of the camp that believes that Disney can and should go much much further in showing its appreciation for this long term commitment. remember a good businessman understands that although we may have given our money up front, we still have tens of thousands of dollars to spend while we are at the parks over the next 40 years, and we may be more inclined to spend that money if we felt that relationship was reciprocal.

sorry for the length

I don't agree with your basic premise. Just because you have Pats seasons tickets it doesn't get you a discount on the New England Revolution or Spooky House or concerts or any other event the Kraft's put on. We bought into DVC, not DISNEY. I think we need to look at DVC, DCL, and Disney Resorts as different entities. Companies unto themself.

 

[dvcer97]

Well I guess I am the exception to the cruise on pts for 2003. When I looked at the schedule and the time I wanted to go. Mt pts actually went down for me aug 24,2003 happens to fall in Value season for the Eastern Carribean cruise. in a cat 6 the pts is lower because my dates now fall in value season. I rented out pts this yr at $15.00 per pt to more than cover both my contracts for this yr. That means no banking all pts just a few from each contract and next yr I book a cat 6 for 2 adults and 1 child under 3 and 1 for under 13. I have no desire to go to the western Carribean. Oh and after renting only 110 I can still book a 2brd at BCV and 1 stand studio and BWV this yr for myself without feeling deprive. This is just my feelings however I would not use pts to cuise every yr but at least next yr I can.

pts for Vaule seanon in a cat 6 is 191pts

jackie