Bill O'Reiley STILL banging the "liberals hate Christmas" drum...

[DarkSideMoon]

Should we just throw out discrimination laws?

no, this is different. Let me show you an example. Your local school wants to put up a christmas tree. 99% of the people involved support it 1% does not. So you dont put up a christmas tree because of the one percent.

 

[Patch'sD]

Why can't a Nativity or Menorah be on Public Property.

 

[cardaway]

no, this is different. Let me show you an example. Your local school wants to put up a christmas tree. 99% of the people involved support it 1% does not. So you dont put up a christmas tree because of the one percent.

Public school? If yes, then yes.

Same as any other situation where even a minority as small as 1% should get a voice in this country.

 

[DarkSideMoon]

You will never make everyone happy, that is why we elect by majorities. you will never get total agreement on everything.

 

[Patch'sD]

Again Why Can't there be a Natavity Scene, Cross, or Menorah on Public Property?

 

[AnaheimGirl]

no, this is different. Let me show you an example. Your local school wants to put up a christmas tree. 99% of the people involved support it 1% does not. So you dont put up a christmas tree because of the one percent.

It's part of the whole "tyranny of the majority" thing. Sorry, I can't remember the exact context in which this was originally mentioned, hopefully someone who has studied civics more than I did can elaborate. However, I'm fairly certain that our founding fathers, while they didn't write this into the constitution, did speak of, and attempt to safeguard against the tyranny of the majority. Isn't that why the Judicial branch is given the power to declare a law unconstitutional, no matter what majority passes it?

Now "tyranny" is a pretty strong word for putting a religious object on government property, but the idea is the same. Just because we are a democracy, does not mean that the majority should be allowed to ignore the rights of the minority.

 

[DarkSideMoon]

Oh and by the way, the seperation of church and state does not mean the government cannot have any religous symbols on their property. it means they cannot force a state religion or support one religion. If people want menorahs and pegan symbols along with christmas decor on government property it is fine with me.

 

[AnaheimGirl]

Again Why Can't there be a Natavity Scene, Cross, or Menorah on Public Property?

First amendment. Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion. Sorry the exact wording escapes me right now, but religious symbols on public property give the appearance that the government is endorsing that religion. Appearance matters.

 

[JennyMominRI]

It's part of the whole "tyranny of the majority" thing. Sorry, I can't remember the exact context in which this was originally mentioned, hopefully someone who has studied civics more than I did can elaborate. However, I'm fairly certain that our founding fathers, while they didn't write this into the constitution, did speak of, and attempt to safeguard against the tyranny of the majority. Isn't that why the Judicial branch is given the power to declare a law unconstitutional, no matter what majority passes it?

Now "tyranny" is a pretty strong word for putting a religious object on government property, but the idea is the same. Just because we are a democracy, does not mean that the majority should be allowed to ignore the rights of the minority.

The rights of the minority are to be protected from the tyranny of the Majority ..


As to why no menorah(actually at Hannukah it's not a menorah but a Hannukia) well.. I firmly believe in separation of Chruch and state. I also very much believe in Judaism. I don't want ANY sort of endorsement of ANY religion including mine on government property..Any step ,however small towards a government endorsed religion or goverment state will be fought very strongly by me..Jews don't fare very well in any sort of religious state. In fact they were forcibly converted, murdered or expelled from most of them.. Having a state mandated religion always sounds pretty good to member of the dominant paridigam..It's not so appealing by those who are not member of the DP..

 

[Mom2be]

You will never make everyone happy, that is why we elect by majorities. you will never get total agreement on everything.

The president isn't elected by majority. If he was then whoever won NY, CA, and FL would win and you have a Dem in the office every time That is why the electoral college exist so that OH, MO, and other smaller poplulation states votes matter just as much as the larger population states. In 2000 Bush won the electoral college and not the popular vote. The majority of people voted for Gore.

~Amanda

 

[Mom2be]

Again Why Can't there be a Natavity Scene, Cross, or Menorah on Public Property?

Why does it matter? If you want to see a Nativity Scene go to a Christian Church, if you want to see a Menorah go to temple.

Religious symbols have no business on government property because in the United States we do not have an official religion.

~Amanda

 

[Patch'sD]

What law are they making. I have read of no law being made when a Natavity Scene or Menorah is placed on public Property, What if I establish a religion that worships benchs. Should all benchs be removed from public property. Should all crosses and Stars of David be banned from Military Cemeteries. Why one and not the other. I strongly believe that our founding fathers did not want religion to control our government by the establishment of Federal Religion. Through time and interpertation the courts have taken that to mean that a Wall must be maintained between religion and the Federal Government. What we are dealing with now is how the word Establishment is written in the First Amendment. As long as The public Properety will allow all religous symbols than there is no problem. Care to comment

 

[Patch'sD]

Thats right we don't have a national religion, How is displaying these items going to make a national religion.

 

[DarkSideMoon]

First amendment. Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion. Sorry the exact wording escapes me right now, but religious symbols on public property give the appearance that the government is endorsing that religion. Appearance matters.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

no LAW. not putting up Christmas decor

 

[eclectics]

What law are they making. I have read of no law being made when a Natavity Scene or Menorah is placed on public Property, What if I establish a religion that worships benchs. Should all benchs be removed from public property. Should all crosses and Stars of David be banned from Military Cemeteries. Why one and not the other. I strongly believe that our founding fathers did not want religion to control our government by the establishment of Federal Religion. Through time and interpertation the courts have taken that to mean that a Wall must be maintained between religion and the Federal Government. What we are dealing with now is how the word Establishment is written in the First Amendment. As long as The public Properety will allow all religous symbols than there is no problem. Care to comment

But you would have to be fair to ALL religions for this theory to work. Not just the major ones. The Wiccans, The Scientologists, The Jehovah Witnesses, etc. who have legally recognized religions (even though you may call some of them cults) would be allowed to put up the symbols of their choice also. Can you picture a court house lobby filled with all these different symbols? That's why it won't work.

 

[Patch'sD]

Why Not, They have an event they want to share, why not. If you do for one, You have to do for others. Is excluding relgions in the Constitution. Is that what Establishment means. How many different religions celebrate Christmass, which one is the government sponsoring for a National Religion?

 

[Mom2be]

What law are they making. I have read of no law being made when a Natavity Scene or Menorah is placed on public Property, What if I establish a religion that worships benchs. Should all benchs be removed from public property. Should all crosses and Stars of David be banned from Military Cemeteries. Why one and not the other. I strongly believe that our founding fathers did not want religion to control our government by the establishment of Federal Religion. Through time and interpertation the courts have taken that to mean that a Wall must be maintained between religion and the Federal Government. What we are dealing with now is how the word Establishment is written in the First Amendment. As long as The public Properety will allow all religous symbols than there is no problem. Care to comment

Correct religion and politics should be and remain seperate. This protects the government as much as it protects the church. Of course lately religions want to be more and more involved in the government - including establishing laws based on their beliefs.

Because religion and politics should be and remain seperate I believe that Holiday symbols should not be on government property. You may disagree and are entitled to your opinion.

~Amanda

 

[eclectics]

Why Not, They have an event they want to share, why not. If you do for one, You have to do for others. Is excluding relgions in the Constitution. Is that what Establishment means. How many different religions celebrate Christmass, which one is the government sponsoring for a National Religion?

We're not just talking Christmas. Every public venue would have to be open for EVERY religions holidays and displays all year round. I just read somewhere about a religion that worships snakes (yes, it has legal tax exempt status). Would you like some live rattlesnakes in your courthouse, next to the Wiccans broom or cauldron? (no offense to Wiccans, I don't know what their symbol is or if they have one). Yet under your plan, it would be totally legal for them to have their display in ANY public building or public display they choose. Does that really make sense to you? Wouldn't it be saner to keep religious symbols in their respective houses of worship?

 

[JennyMominRI]

We're not just talking Christmas. Every public venue would have to be open for EVERY religions holidays and displays all year round. I just read somewhere about a religion that worships snakes (yes, it has legal tax exempt status). Would you like some live rattlesnakes in your courthouse, next to the Wiccans broom or cauldron? (no offense to Wiccans, I don't know what their symbol is or if they have one). Yet under your plan, it would be totally legal for them to have their display in ANY public building or public display they choose. Does that really make sense to you? Wouldn't it be saner to keep religious symbols in their respective houses of worship?

religious imagery and symbolism of some people can be distinctly... erotic. Racy. There are other religious groups that revere sexuality and fertility and could rightfully insist that a giant phallus be situated in between the hideous plastic giant menorah (which isn't a menorah... it's a Chanukia, but okay) and the manger scene.

Those of you who advocate the right of ALL religions to have their imagery displayed on the courthouse lawn, please... *please* tell me how you honestly think it would go over to have, say, a statue of a vulva casting a mid-day shadow over the baby Jesus. Please help me understand how you think this would be okay with everyone, and a "good idea."

 

[eclectics]

religious imagery and symbolism of some people can be distinctly... erotic. Racy. There are other religious groups that revere sexuality and fertility and could rightfully insist that a giant phallus be situated in between the hideous plastic giant menorah (which isn't a menorah... it's a Chanukia, but okay) and the manger scene.

Those of you who advocate the right of ALL religions to have their imagery displayed on the courthouse lawn, please... *please* tell me how you honestly think it would go over to have, say, a statue of a vulva casting a mid-day shadow over the baby Jesus. Please help me understand how you think this would be okay with everyone, and a "good idea."

And don't think for one minute, Jenny, that these fringe religions won't petition the court to display such things if such a law were to be passed. I don't understand the folks that refuse to realize this will indeed happen.