Big 3 Bailout

[bigdisneydaddy]

The fact that gets lost in all the rhetoric is that GM failed to fund a long term obligation that they incurred years ago. Much like Social security has done, they have passed the obligation down to the next generation and unfortunately the time is at hand to deal with it.
GM made promises to their workers and then did not fund them, that is the short story. I have been in some of the stink holes that GM has operated, the only way that people would work in these places was to give them benefits. One of the nastiest filthiest places on earth was the old foundry in Pontiac (plant 43) it literally was like hell on earth, filthy dirty and stank like high heaven, people werent exactly lining up to work there.
As for Petes comment about Detroit/Michigan and its culture, he is exactly right, there is a culture here, much like anywhere else in America it varies by region, is it changing, yes it is, does it have more change coming, probably yes. Dont think that your area/culture wont be the next (not directed specifically at Pete) everyone wants to slay someone elses sacred cow, maybe theirs is next ?
The part that often gets left out of the domestic vs foreign plant debate is the fact that most of the foreign mfg plants got built where the tax breaks were the biggest, while that is good for the business it also raises the question of whol will pay for infrastructure and public services ? Since the municipality lacks the tax revenue who will pay for the water/sewer treatment, roads, police and fire ? that burden falls more solidly on the citizen since the business has a reduced tax burden. Is that a bad thing ? its debatable, but it should be part of the discussion.

 

[stacktester]

Very well put Scott.

 

[djblu883]

Brad I'm Sorry you have lost your job and hope you can re train in something quickly that will help your family ...I've been so happily posting 2 new jobs for myself and you don't have one....You and your family are in my prayers!!!

 

[Tnbob]

Thank you Scott for telling the story that a lot of people ignore, the real jobs. People see on TV these clean assembly lines with people walking around at a snails pace, these pictures were probably taken during a start up or break time, when that line is running its extreamly hard to keep up with. The real jobs are far more diverse than assembly, as Scott stated foundries and machining jobs are hot and dirty and take a great deal of skill and to some extent bravery. Hot molten steel and alum flowing by is not a job for everyone and yes they are part of the work that is done by UAW people in auto plants. The $80 an hour deal is just way out of line and for people to believe it is even worse. In the spirt of full disclosure I am a retired GM worker who got 30 years in and got out, I have the scars on my neck and arms to prove it, no amount of money makes up for the "after effects" of any repetive job in the auto industry or any other industry, thank you for letting me vent. and forgive my spelling

The fact that gets lost in all the rhetoric is that GM failed to fund a long term obligation that they incurred years ago. Much like Social security has done, they have passed the obligation down to the next generation and unfortunately the time is at hand to deal with it.
GM made promises to their workers and then did not fund them, that is the short story. I have been in some of the stink holes that GM has operated, the only way that people would work in these places was to give them benefits. One of the nastiest filthiest places on earth was the old foundry in Pontiac (plant 43) it literally was like hell on earth, filthy dirty and stank like high heaven, people werent exactly lining up to work there.
As for Petes comment about Detroit/Michigan and its culture, he is exactly right, there is a culture here, much like anywhere else in America it varies by region, is it changing, yes it is, does it have more change coming, probably yes. Dont think that your area/culture wont be the next (not directed specifically at Pete) everyone wants to slay someone elses sacred cow, maybe theirs is next ?
The part that often gets left out of the domestic vs foreign plant debate is the fact that most of the foreign mfg plants got built where the tax breaks were the biggest, while that is good for the business it also raises the question of whol will pay for infrastructure and public services ? Since the municipality lacks the tax revenue who will pay for the water/sewer treatment, roads, police and fire ? that burden falls more solidly on the citizen since the business has a reduced tax burden. Is that a bad thing ? its debatable, but it should be part of the discussion.

 

[ntsammy5]

I know quite a few people in the automotive industry who have or will lose their jobs. Good luck, Brad

 

[BRDof3]

Brad, I'm pulling for you man! My employer bought another company in 2007, and I spent the next year-and-a-half dreading every call or email from corporate as the ax was weilded and heads rolled all over the country. Got near enough to the ragged egde that I don't want to know just how close it was. Things are somewhat more stable right now, but I know that's not worth the price of a cup of water.

We are trying to live our life as we worry about the future, and that gets TOUGH. Hang in there, and remember that you have a wide support net when you need to vent, or just have some friends around you. I can't make it better with a wave of the wand, I wish I could.

 

[Gatordad]

The fact that gets lost in all the rhetoric is that GM failed to fund a long term obligation that they incurred years ago. Much like Social security has done, they have passed the obligation down to the next generation and unfortunately the time is at hand to deal with it.
GM made promises to their workers and then did not fund them, that is the short story. I have been in some of the stink holes that GM has operated, the only way that people would work in these places was to give them benefits. One of the nastiest filthiest places on earth was the old foundry in Pontiac (plant 43) it literally was like hell on earth, filthy dirty and stank like high heaven, people werent exactly lining up to work there.
As for Petes comment about Detroit/Michigan and its culture, he is exactly right, there is a culture here, much like anywhere else in America it varies by region, is it changing, yes it is, does it have more change coming, probably yes. Dont think that your area/culture wont be the next (not directed specifically at Pete) everyone wants to slay someone elses sacred cow, maybe theirs is next ?
The part that often gets left out of the domestic vs foreign plant debate is the fact that most of the foreign mfg plants got built where the tax breaks were the biggest, while that is good for the business it also raises the question of whol will pay for infrastructure and public services ? Since the municipality lacks the tax revenue who will pay for the water/sewer treatment, roads, police and fire ? that burden falls more solidly on the citizen since the business has a reduced tax burden. Is that a bad thing ? its debatable, but it should be part of the discussion.

what I meant by socio-economic is the fact that you have folks making 80K+ that have no advanced degrees or skills. they can't pick up and move to anywhere else in country and find a job paying similar. They are trapped in MI.
And unfortunately, as the big 3 goes, so does that entire state/region. Until they change the model, it's going to be bad news. The Unions and the
Company need to sit down and figure a way to salvage what they have. It's going to come from both sides.

 

[bigdisneydaddy]

what I meant by socio-economic is the fact that you have folks making 80K+ that have no advanced degrees or skills. they can't pick up and move to anywhere else in country and find a job paying similar. They are trapped in MI.
And unfortunately, as the big 3 goes, so does that entire state/region. Until they change the model, it's going to be bad news. The Unions and the
Company need to sit down and figure a way to salvage what they have. It's going to come from both sides.

I agree completely that the model HAS to change and it will require a combination effort. GM has long been plagued by poor management (as so many companies are) and a lack of foresight.
I have known many people that worked the line at GM, I dont know anyone that was making 80K a year unless they were working 10-12 hr days and lots of overtime. The people I do know that made that much were either management or skilled trades which satisfies both of the requisites you discussed.
GM has lacked the discipline to rein in the excesses of the union because they themselves were not willing to follow the same course. When times were good they should have been scrapping old outdated inefficient plants and building new ones, we all know how that played out. Their parts distribution system is a model of inefficiency and always has been, thats why they cant compete with non OEM suppliers. There was a day when genuine GM parts actually meant something, in this day I dont think it does. When every GM model uses a different power window switch and different electrical connectors that hardly speaks for a streamlined efficient operation.

 

[vick]

My dh was in skilled trades and he did get a degree. The only way he made 80 thousand was by working 12 hours 7 days a week. He had to do quite a bit of that over the years. That's the one thing we don't miss!

I'm not sure how the misconception got started about the UAW workers making so much. They do get paid more than at other plants in the area and the working conditions are a lot better than at most plants, but the pay difference isn't nearly what most people think for assembly line workers.

 

[PolynesianPixie]

Brad I'm so sorry to hear about your situation. My thoughts and prayers are with you!

 

[BRDof3]

The thing that skews the picture as far as salary figures is that it includes salary, taxes, benefits (your cost and the employer's), admin, Work Comp costs and exposures, paid leave, holidays, etc. The actual hourly rate is a small part of the total picture for a corporation like this.

 

[Gatordad]

According to briefing materials prepared by General Motors, "The total of both cash compensation and benefits provided to GM hourly workers in 2006 amounted to approximately $73.26 per active hour worked."



UAW workers are highly paid, but not all this compensation comes as cash wages. Breaking the $73.26 figure down, General Motors reports that it pays base wages of roughly $30 an hour. At the end of December 2006, the average vehicle assembler at GM earned $28.02 an hour; the average machine repair electrician earned $32.43.[2]

Other provisions raise cash earnings above this base pay. For example, workers at Ford earn 10 percent premium payments for taking midnight shifts and double time for overtime hours worked on Sundays.[3]

Autoworkers put in substantial overtime hours at higher rates, raising earnings above their base pay. GM reported that its average hourly employee worked 315 overtime hours in 2006. Including all monetary payments--base wages, shift premiums, overtime pay, as well as vacation and holiday pay--GM reported an average hourly pay of $39.68 an hour in 2006.[4] About 54 percent of the average UAW employee at GM's earnings came in cash in 2006.

Earned Benefits

The remaining $33.58 an hour of hourly labor costs that GM reports--46 percent of total compensation--was paid as benefits. These benefits include[5]:

Hospital, surgical, and prescription drug benefits;
Dental and vision benefits;
Group life insurance;
Disability benefits;
Supplemental Unemployment Benefits (SUB);
Pension payments to workers pensions accounts to be paid out at retirement;
Unemployment compensation; and
Payroll taxes (employer's share).
These benefits cost the Detroit automakers significant amounts of money. Critics contend that these benefit figures include the cost of providing retirement and health benefits to currently retired workers, not just benefits for current workers. Since there are more retired than active employees this makes it appear that GM employees earn far more than they actually do.

This contention contradicts the plain meaning of what the automakers have reported in SEC filings and in their public statements and would be contrary to generally accepted accounting principles.

 

[ntsammy5]

I think we need a good SOX audit here. The problem is there are so many different reports out there, all conflicting - no one knows for sure what the wages are or for that matter what the problem is. Let's ask Bernie Madoff for his opinion! As for GAAP, .

This is a lose, lose situation - no one will win, no matter what is done.

 

[vick]

My dh must have been below average. He was at the top of the skilled trades pay and he didn't make $32 an hour. They did get time and a half pay for every hour over 40 and double time for any hours worked on a Sunday, whether it put them over 40 or not.

The retiree health plan sux, to put it mildly. It costs us nearly $400 just to get a physical. I haven't had one in several years because of that. Quite a few dentists won't take our insurance, because it doesn't pay them enough. Right now, we are looking for a new dentist. And, there are no good vision places here that take our insurance now.

Like I said in an earlier post, I am thankful for all we had while dh was working for GM. It just irks me to hear them say they have no money while still giving out billions of dollars to the CEO and upper level management as bonuses. The UAW is not the problem. The problem is in management. Why do they reward management for the poor decisions they have made?

 

[jugman]

GM still paid christmas bonuses this year. I don't think many companies did that were having money woes.

 

[Gatordad]

Both sides need to be a partner in this solution. Without it, both are failed.

 

[vick]

Both sides need to be a partner in this solution. Without it, both are failed.

I agree Pete.

 

[bigdisneydaddy]

Anyone can make anything they want using the right statistics.

 

[AuburnJen92]

Anyone can make anything they want using the right statistics.

Isn't that what the media is famous for?

 

[drafthorsecrazy]

My dh must have been below average. He was at the top of the skilled trades pay and he didn't make $32 an hour. They did get time and a half pay for every hour over 40 and double time for any hours worked on a Sunday, whether it put them over 40 or not.

The retiree health plan sux, to put it mildly. It costs us nearly $400 just to get a physical. I haven't had one in several years because of that. Quite a few dentists won't take our insurance, because it doesn't pay them enough. Right now, we are looking for a new dentist. And, there are no good vision places here that take our insurance now.

Like I said in an earlier post, I am thankful for all we had while dh was working for GM. It just irks me to hear them say they have no money while still giving out billions of dollars to the CEO and upper level management as bonuses. The UAW is not the problem. The problem is in management. Why do they reward management for the poor decisions they have made?

I could have written this post! We are in the same position with our GM retiree benefits. Its a sad day when the very people who worked all their lives and built up a company are now in retirement and have to worry about the healthcare they were promised.

Proud Retired American Auto Worker's Wife.