Believe in God, but not the church?

[hokiefan33]

Thank you so much for proving my point. This is the best example of why organized religion is so dangerous.

How exactly does that prove your point?

 

[mickeysgal]

I have a question for those who believe in God but not the Church. I guess this is more for the "non practicing Catholics" because I am not familiar with other religious practices (although please chime in if this applies to you). Anyway, if you do not go to Church, do you (or your children) participate in the Sacraments of Baptism, Holy Communion, Confirmation and were you wed in the Church?

The reason I ask is because that is something I struggled with for quite awhile myself.

Yes, we were wed in a church, our children were baptised Lutheran, and have attended church sporadically over the years. We loved our prior church, but due to a job relocation, we are currently struggling to find a church here that we feel is right for us. There is no church in town that is Lutheran. Although we attend a church here occasionally of another faith, I will not allow my children to participate in Holy Communion since, they haven't been instructed and confirmed as Lutherans (yet). This does bother us however I don't want us to change to another faith.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Buckalew,

Please do forgive me for answering your post like this. I truly do respect you as a Christian! I am happy that you are comfortable in your church and your commitments! And, I mean no personal offense at all to you! Please realize that no offense is intended! I simply felt compelled to answer, in the spirit of an open intelligent conversation.

When I speak of commitments and accountability, I am certainly not saying that my church requires anything.

The problem is, most all Churches DO have expectations and requirements... NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

However, I do think there is commitment involved. Commitment to be in a class or lead a class. We are taught in the Bible to hold each other accountable.

So, as a Christian, I am committed to teach classes, or to be enrolled in classes??? I have to VERY STRONGLY DISAGREE.

My commitment is to God. But through that commitment comes some commitment to others.
I am accountable to others, IMO, accountable to Christians and non-Christians alike.

And, just what does a general 'accountability to other fellow human beings' have to do with 'Church'????? I see no link here whatsoever. My accountability to those around me has no bearing on a requirement to join a church and to be committed to a specific church.

As far as God and Spirituality. This is actually a very important choice. The Bible says that You can NOT serve ( be committed to, or, be accountable to) God and Man.

I am not accountable to any man, or any church.... Only God.

While I agree that only God will judge me, in the meantime many, many people (Christian or not, on this board or in RL) will also be judging me. That really won't/doesn't matter as God is the real Judge but still, there's a lot of judging in this world.

Very True! And, we, as Christian's are NOT called to judge others. This is very very plainly forbidden. Many churches and Christians are not just spreading the good word, they are defining and judging 'sin'. This is a HUGE problem with organized religion.

Yes, it is very true that everybody holds their own opinions... And comes to their own judgments... However, when it comes to spirituality and sin, it seems to be the churches, and the people associated with the churches, who seem to be making the judgments regarding sin and salvation. This is forbidden. Christ said "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone".

So, actually, your comments have just nailed home my point about most churches. These views are the very views that I, and many others, have a real problem with.

 

[cardaway]

Thank you so much for proving my point. This is the best example of why organized religion is so dangerous.

Nobody specifically asked for examples of what is driving people away from church, but we got them anyway.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Cardaway,

Ummm, the whole premise of this thread is to ask about Christians who are not church-goers. So, these thoughts/examples are exactly what are being discussed here.

If you do not consider yourself a Christian, then I hope you will kindly refrain from hijacking this thread.

 

[hokiefan33]

The problem is, most all Churches DO have expectations and requirements... NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

Is there a reason you think they shouldn't have them? Does God have expectations of us, requirements of Christians? I believe He does, definitely. I'm not saying ALL demands of the church are God's demands - hopefully they are, but probably not always. However, we are clearly commanded to be using our spiritual gifts that God gives us (and He gives everyone AT LEAST 1, sometimes more), and what better place to be using them than serving Him in church?

So, as a Christian, I am committed to teach classes, or to be enrolled in classes??? I have to VERY STRONGLY DISAGREE

So why do you disagree with that, out of curiosity? One of the many ways we learn more about God and the application of His Word to our lives is through study, not just by ourselves but also in a group of believers, such as Sunday School, Bible study, discipleship classes, etc... Not everyone is called to teach, that is true, but we are all called to learn more. Why so adamant that you shouldn't be in any classes?

And, just what does a general 'accountability to other fellow human beings' have to do with 'Church'????? No link here whatsoever.

Why the problem with accountability? This is clearly spoken of in Scripture. We, as fellow Christians are supposed to hold each other accountable, help each other stay on track and love and support each other. If you're not part of a group, how are you supposed to do this?

As far as God and Spiritually. This is a very important choice. The Bible says that You can NOT serve ( be committed to, or, be accountable to) God and Man.

The Bible does contain this particular verse you're quoting, that is true. But it is not used in the context in which you are using it, I don't think. The original word used to oppose God is "mammon", not man. "Mammon", as defined in this context (meaning in opposition to God, as can be seen by what is being talked about) is better translated over as "treasure" or "riches", when talking about being personified and opposed to God. So when it says you cannot serve both God and mammon, it doesn't mean that if you serve God you can't serve men. That is neither the intended nor the implied meaning. It means you can't be sold out to God, but still desire the things of this earth, what we typically place value on, b/c God places no value on them at all. It's a different meaning entirely than saying you can't serve, or shouldn't serve, men. If that were the case, does that mean that anyone with a job that reports to a supervisor should quit if they're a Christian? Obviously not.

I am not accountable to any man, or any church.... Only God.

A lot here depends on your definition of "accountable." Scripture clearly holds that we are to hold each other accountable. Doesn't mean we are the final judge, but does mean that we are to help each other along in love.

And, we, as Christian's are NOT called to judge others. This is very very plainly forbidden. They are not spreading the word, they are defining and judging 'sin'.

Hmmm...if this is the case, how exactly do you explain 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you." That, to me, is not plainly forbidden. You have to define the word "judge" very carefully, and a lot of times, in the context it's written in, it doesn't mean what most people think it means.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Hokie,

I could say nothing at all to sway your views.... I will not even try!


I will say that I see these issues from an entirely different viewpoint.

To use a scripture saying that it is Okay to expel an obviosly 'WICKED' person (NOTE: not sinful but 'wicked') if necessary to condone accountability to the men in a church...

I think the whole point if that scripture was "Let GOD do the 'judging". NOT that we have any obligation to 'judge' or to participate in church.

We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[cardaway]

Cardaway,

Ummm, the whole premise of this thread is to ask about Christians who are not church-goers. So, these thoughts/examples are exactly what are being discussed here.

If you do not consider yourself a Christian, then I hope you will kindly refrain from hijacking this thread.

As somebody who participated in and attended Chirsitan churches in my youth, I'm in the same boat as many others on this thread.

In the future please kindly refrain from telling me what I can post.

 

[2funny2c]

Buckalew,

Please do forgive me for answering your post like this. I truly do respect you as a Christian! I am happy that you are comfortable in your church and your commitments! And, I mean no personal offense at all to you! Please realize that no offense is intended! I simply felt compelled to answer, in the spirit of an open intelligent conversation.




The problem is, most all Churches DO have expectations and requirements... NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.


So, as a Christian, I am committed to teach classes, or to be enrolled in classes??? I have to VERY STRONGLY DISAGREE.


And, just what does a general 'accountability to other fellow human beings' have to do with 'Church'????? I see no link here whatsoever. My accountability to those around me has no bearing on a requirement to join a church and to be committed to a specific church.

As far as God and Spirituality. This is actually a very important choice. The Bible says that You can NOT serve ( be committed to, or, be accountable to) God and Man.

I am not accountable to any man, or any church.... Only God.


Very True! And, we, as Christian's are NOT called to judge others. This is very very plainly forbidden. Many churches and Christians are not just spreading the good word, they are defining and judging 'sin'. This is a HUGE problem with organized religion.

Yes, it is very true that everybody holds their own opinions... And comes to their own judgments... However, when it comes to spirituality and sin, it seems to be the churches, and the people associated with the churches, who seem to be making the judgments regarding sin and salvation. This is forbidden. Christ said "Let he who is without sin throw the first stone".

So, actually, your comments have just nailed home my point about most churches. These views are the very views that I, and many others, have a real problem with.

Actually we are called to judge those within the church:

1 corinthians 5:12
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?

The key is to do so in love. We will be judged using the same standard that we judge others. We are not to judge too harshly. We are to correct in love.

Jesus followed up his statement about throwing stones by telling the adultress to go and sin no more.

Like it or not, if you are a Christian you are called to be in church. We ARE accountable to other believers. When we see other believers falling into sin, we are to make a judgement and help correct that brother or sister out of love for them. Analogy, if you saw someone flailing away in the water, you would have to make a judgement on whether that person could swim and might ultimately drown. Same way among beleivers. We have to make judgements about fellow believers and help them not to drown in their sin and make deadly mistakes. We are better together. God designed us for community. He gave us spiritual gifts to serve one another not for our benefit. Can you be a Christian and not be in church? Sure you can. But in doing so you are not living an authentic God honoring lifestyle and you are never going to grow in your maturity as you should because you are denying yourself many blessings that God has in store for you through other believers.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Cardaway,
I didn't mean to tell you what you could post! If you feel that you are in the same situation as others on this thread, then that is a valid viewpoint!
I simply wanted to caution against hijacking or side-tracking! I was hoping to clarify the topic, and hoping to keep the thread on-topic.

2funny, Your comments are well taken! I do actually agree that it is the ideal situation for Christian's to fellowship with and uplift other believers!

We will agree to disagree on a few points. But, I think that it is sad but true that many of us who are not attending church at this time have valid concerns with organized religion.

 

[hokiefan33]

Hokie,

I could say nothing at all to sway your views.... I will not even try!


I will say that I see these issues from an entirely different viewpoint.

To use a scripture saying that it is Okay to expel an obviosly 'WICKED' person (NOTE: not sinful but 'wicked') if necessary to condone accountability to the men in a church...

I think the whole point if that scripture was "Let GOD do the 'judging". NOT that we have any obligation to 'judge' or to participate in church.

We will have to agree to disagree.

We can "agree to disagree", that is certainly fine. However, that scripture is NOT saying, in its context, to expel only the "wicked"; that is actually just a quotation from Deuteronomy in the OT. It clearly asks the rhetorical question "Are we not to judge those within?", to which the obvious answer, in this context, to that rhetorical question is "Yes!" What the whole little passage means is that don't get caught up with trying to disassociate yourself or have nothing at all to do with the world (those outside the church), b/c if you did, you wouldn't be able to associate with anyone. But that we can't hold those in the church to that same lesser standard, therefore some judgment is necessary (as shown by the rhetorical question) to ensure that that kind of mediocrity doesn't occur in the church. Remember, the word "judge" is not always what most people think it means, in scriptural context. There's a difference between "condemnation" and "inspection." We clearly have the right, AND the obligation, to do so.

 

[cardaway]

Cardaway,
I didn't mean to tell you what you could post! If you feel that you are in the same situation as others on this thread, then that is a valid viewpoint!
I simply wanted to caution against hijacking or side-tracking! I was hoping to clarify the topic, and hoping to keep the thread on-topic.

Save it. The only sidetrack was your attempt at moderating.

 

[hokiefan33]

We will agree to disagree on a few points. But, I think that it is sad but true that many of us who are not attending church at this time have valid concerns with organized religion.

I don't dispute that many on here have concerns with organized religion, but I do dispute the validity of those concerns. If you look at a lot of the concerns, what do you see? "I think others in the church are hypocritical, therefore I don't go." "I don't think you need to go. It's between me and God." "I don't hold to many of my church's beliefs, and I can't find one that suits me, therefore I don't go."

You know what? Maybe it is the people, and not the churches, that need to change, to become a little less worried about their own rights & feelings and a little more worried about the cause of Christ! Others are hypocritical? A lot of people are, probably including those who think others are. Get over it, and go to church, and worry about your own Christian walk, not the walk of others (you know, don't comment on the speck in your brother's eye, when you don't see the log in yours). Don't think it should be dragged outside the bond between "you and God"? God disagrees. Why else would the Bible say "don't forsake the gathering of believers"? Can't find a church that suits you? Ask yourself why not. Do you think maybe you're looking for the "perfect church", the one that holds to exactly what you believe, and nothing that you don't? If you find the perfect church, don't join it, b/c when you do, it won't be perfect anymore! Excuses, excuses, excuses...and they're mostly all centered around US, rather than around Christianity.

 

[mickeyfan2]

Cardaway,

Ummm, the whole premise of this thread is to ask about Christians who are not church-goers. So, these thoughts/examples are exactly what are being discussed here.

If you do not consider yourself a Christian, then I hope you will kindly refrain from hijacking this thread.

Sorry, but I found this post very rude. Cardaway said nothing that deserved this reply.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Hokiefan,

I am trying to see what you are saying.

However, I do continue to feel as I do about these issues.

You mention the term 'inspection'.
I immediately think of the Scripture, "How can you see to remove the splinter in your brothers eye when you have a log in your own eye."

With that, I feel that I have expressed my thoughts on the overall topic here. And, I am logging off here anyway. I think I will step back and see what any other posters have to say.

 

[2funny2c]

Hokiefan,

I am trying to see what you are saying.

However, I do continue to feel as I do about these issues.

You mention the term 'inspection'.
I immediately think of the Scripture, "How can you see to remove the splinter in your brothers eye when you have a log in your own eye."

With that, I feel that I have expressed my thoughts on the overall topic here. And, I am logging off here anyway. I think I will step back and see what any other posters have to say.

That verse speaks to HOW we judge and correct others. It doesnt say we shouldnt. It speaks of correcting and judging others of a sin that you your self struggle with. Basically dont be a hypocrite. Repent of your sin before you address others.

Again, it is how we judge that we will be held accountable for in the end. We should do so in love.

 

[hokiefan33]

That verse speaks to HOW we judge and correct others. It doesnt say we shouldnt. It speaks of correcting and judging others of a sin that you your self struggle with. Basically dont be a hypocrite. Repent of your sin before you address others.

Again, it is how we judge that we will be held accountable for in the end. We should do so in love.

Exactly. Matthew talks of the MANNER in which we do it, not the fact of whether to do it or not. 1 Corinthians clearly calls us to DO it.

 

[Buckalew11]

Wishing on a Star,

No offense taken. We clearly have different views and will have to agree to disagree.

My belief is NOT that my church requires me to teach or be in a class. But, by following scripture I will probably do one or the other to learn and grow. Just as I love to learn different this by asking questions here or reading others' comments, so are my classes. I can ask, share, and comment. I love that about a class. And I believe it helps us to grow and helps us to help others' grow.

Sure, I want my fellow church friends and other Christians to hold me accountable. I don't want them being mean about it butif I am doing something against scripture, then I would WANT them to come to me and talk about it. And more than that, I want to be accountable to them. I want to know that I shouldn't cause them to stumble and so, I feel accountable to my friends. Yes, I am accountable to God more but I also know how careful people watch people are Christians. It is just a fact of life.

I guess I don't really understand why the only accountability you feel is to God. I know that God is the ultimate and He is who I answer to but i suppose I could compare how I feel like this:
As a child I was ultimately accountable to mom and dad. They were who I answered to. They'd punish or reward me. But, yet, there were others in my life I also felt accountable to: relatives, family friends, neighbors, teachers. I knew the ones who I needed to REALLY concern myself with were my parents. bbut, still, those people may have been watching me and I wouldn't want to disappoint or hurt them in any way.

I guess I am wondering what you really think. I know you said you'll only answer to God and Him alone but maybe there is more about your feelings I am not understanding. And BTW, I agree with 2F2C and Hokie about the serving God and man thing. Jesus washed the feet of the apostles. I clearly think our attitude toward others should take that attitude and service as an example. Nope, I'm not gonna worship others or my preacher. But I believe that I am accountable to them and them to me.

And if that "hits the nail on the head", then I suppose I have made your point. And I'd love to know what that point is. Again, no offense. Clearly I can learn from this conversation.

 

[jimmiej]

Here is a scripture pertinent to being a part of a group (in this case a local church body):

Ecclesiastes 4

9 Two are better than one,
because they have a good return for their work:

10 If one falls down,
his friend can help him up.
But pity the man who falls
and has no one to help him up!

11 Also, if two lie down together, they will keep warm.
But how can one keep warm alone?

12 Though one may be overpowered,
two can defend themselves.
A cord of three strands is not quickly broken.

If you serve the Lord alone, what happens when you're attacked by Satan (i.e., a sin enters your life or you are tempted)? Who's going to be there to hold you accountable, to give you a helping hand?

Just a suggestion: Those of you who've had enough of "organized" religion, have you considered starting a small group of like-minded believers & meeting in each other's homes? After all, this is how the first local church started.

 

[JPN4265]

Here is a scripture pertinent to being a part of a group (in this case a local church body):

Ecclesiastes 4

9 Two are better than one,
because they have a good return for their work:

10 If one falls down,
his friend can help him up.
But pity the man who falls
and has no one to help him up!

11 Also, if two lie down together, they will keep warm.
But how can one keep warm alone?

12 Though one may be overpowered,
two can defend themselves.
A cord of three strands is not quickly broken.

If you serve the Lord alone, what happens when you're attacked by Satan (i.e., a sin enters your life or you are tempted)? Who's going to be there to hold you accountable, to give you a helping hand?

Just a suggestion: Those of you who've had enough of "organized" religion, have you considered starting a small group of like-minded believers & meeting in each other's homes? After all, this is how the first local church started.

Interesting that you only think that by going to Church you can be more than one. Seems to be more people not attending church then going to church and they are helping each other. But, I have seen many people going to church who receive no help from other church members because of the way they look or act. Clothes not nice enough, or they dare to question the churches preachings.