Behaviour Help w/ DS 5 yo - Updt Pg 3 :)

[nuke]

My brother and SIL let me neice get away with everything! Finally when THEY had enough they needed to find a way to change things. They sat her down and told her that there were now new rules and layed them out for her. The main one was no crying or whining when being dropped off at daycare. They also had a consequence for breaking the new rules.
My neice is pretty bright and only tested the waters one time with them. When they actually followed through with the consequence she stopped the whining and crying. It was a miracle!

 

[nuke]

All of these are things I did with DS. In fact to this day when I "really" need to make sure he's paying attention to me I'll tell him look at me so I know he's actually absorbing what I'm saying instead of what's on teh computer or TV. And he's an adult!

Anne

I have to do that with my husband!

 

[frndofpooh]

No negotiation - when they are old enough to form an intelligent, logical argument (way older than 5, but lots of parents don't know that) you'll know. Then, you may have to switch strategies but for now, it's a simple "those are the rules" statement and not much else. If he melts down after that and gets upset you can add in, "I'm sorry you feel that way" if you really feel the need to keep talking. There's not much you can say to "I'm sorry you feel that way" so it helps to shut down the conversation that shouldn't go on anyway.

Five is not an easy age - have you ever read the book, "It's Tough to be Five"? I think that is the title. It's written by Jamie Lee Curtis, and it about sums up the age. Hang in there!

 

[becka]

I have to remind myself every single day that my DS is only 4 and that he is still learning how to be human .

I love that! I also have a DS who is 4 and that about sums it up...he is just not human yet.

OP I really feel for you because it is such a hard thing to do but the negotiation will kill you. DS has become the master of it and you just can't start playing the game.

I know it is easier said than done and I myself was guilty of it just this morning. The only "home toys" allowed at DS's preschool is a soft stuffed animal they can sleep with at nap time. I do allow the kids to have toys to play with in the car on the way to school with the understanding that they cannot take them inside to school. Today DS had 3 stuffed dogs with him. When it came time to get out of the car I told him to pick 1 dog and to get out of the car. He immediately wanted to take 2 and started the negotiations. I was running late and I didn't feel like getting into a fight with him so I let him take both of them in with him. I will probably pay for that later tonight since he thinks I am willing to play negotiation today. What I should have done was tell him he could only take 1 and if he didn't pick one quickly and get out of the car they were ALL staying in the car. If he pitched a fit I would end up dragging him out of the car and into school....I have had to do it before. I hate it but it does work.

DS is so good at negotiations that they told me at the doctors office on Tuesday that he would be a great politician. He needed 3 shots so he could enroll in K next week. When they told him he needed 3 he countered with 2. When we explained to him that he had to have all 3 he wanted to know if he could get extra stickers for the extra shot. The nurse said he could have 3 stickers - one for each shot. DS countered with 4 stickers - one for each member of the family. He got 3 shots and 4 stickers.

 

[Daxx]

I am running out of ideas in dealing with DS. Here is the scenario:

Am dropping him off at school this morning. He has a dinky car he is playing with in the car. He brings it in to school with him (I do not notice). He asks if he can keep it with him to play with. I remind him that there is a 'no home toys' rule at school. He begins to pout. I ask him for the car. He refuses. I pry it out of his hands. The tears begin. I try reasoning with him, tell him he will lose his priviledge of seeing a movie on the weekend, offering him a choice of either going into the gym to play or sitting on the chair in the gym, threaten him with a spank, ask him whether he wants his friends to see him crying like a baby, drag him over to the chair and try and make him sit, try and leave only to have him run over crying and wrap himself around me. Basically he was bargaining with me the whole time ie I won't go into the gym unless you give me the car etc etc. Finally managed to escape when gym monitor came over and offered to let him play with dinky cars they have there.

Why bother reasoning w/a child? Let's face it ... they just don't want to reason -- they want what they want when they want it and nothing you say is going to make any difference! Your child is not in charge, you are. By allowing him to negotiate, you're allowing him to be in charge. When his negotiations take a downward spiral, he starts w/the waterworks. Then, you give in. You have to stop all of those behaviors on your part. Don't give in, be firm, be the boss.

I feel like I have been giving in to him lately and now he just knows that if he keeps crying I will eventually give in.

See, he knows you'll give in! Now uses it to his advantage. He doesn't get what he wants, so he cries, and you give in! he has you figured out and knows how to push your buttons. Guess who will be wearing the pants in your family if you don't stop!? He has to know that you're the boss otherwise he'll continue to walk all over you! He now knows what it takes to get his way and he's not afraid to use it. You have to be firm. Don't worry about "hurting his feelings" or having him hate you or thinking you're mean. He'll get over it. You're not here to be his "best friend" -- you're here to be his parent and that means giving him boundaries, rules, and having him understand his position is not your equal.

My question is - I have gotten myself into this hole....how can I get out? I am not sure what I could have done in the situation above where I ask him to do something (go into the gym) and he offers an ultimatium (only if you give me my car)?

What can you do? Stop giving in, tell him there are no ultimatums, and don't ask him to go into the gym -- TELL him to go into the gym. Tell him rules are rules and there are consequences for actions -- and be ready to provide consequences and follow through!!!!! Your child is not your equal -- stop treating him like one!!!!

Right now, I have a student in Kdg. Last year, in Pre-K, this little girl cried b/c she wanted to stay at home w/mom. Well, when they'd pull up to school, she'd cry, mom gave in and kept her home. Mom ended up pulling her out of Pre-K one month short of the end of the year. What did this teach the little girl? How to manipulate mom. This year, she cries and doesn't want to go to school. Mom fights her tooth and nail and has had to have the principal come down and get her out of the car and carry her up to the class. Mom has kept her at home b/c she just couldn't "deal" w/her tears and tantrums. What do you think this little girl has learned?! How to get out of going to school. What's worse is that she comes up w/these little "schemes" to try to get out of school. First it was "I don't feel good" so I'd send a note to the office saying "Pretend to call Mom, but don't really call ... send her back to the room and tell her that you left Mom a message". This ALWAYS worked. She thought that Mom was going to pick her up and after awhile she forgot about the whole thing. Just the other day, though, she decided to try a new trick -- peeing her pants. She admitted that she did it on purpose so she could go home!!!!! I told her tough luck, gave her a spare pair of uniform pants and a spare pair of little girl undies, sent her off to change and told her I had loads more of undies and pants should she decide to wet herself again. First Class, Grade A manipulator. Mom falls for it ... teacher refuses to. I don't fall for her tears or anything b/c I know her game. Worst part? Mom sent her to school y'day in pull-ups, which are not allowed in Kdg. So, I gave her a pair of panties and told her to go change into them and bring the pull-up out in the bag I gave her. She TOTALLY refused, pitched a fit, etc. ... expecting to be sent home!!!!! I told the principal that she had pull-ups on and he called Mom b/c she wouldn't change. He told Mom that she would have to come down and do it herself. Mom said to him "When are you going to put your foot down w/her?" and the principal replied "As a parent, that is your job, not mine"!!!! Can you even believe that?!?!!? She won't put her foot down and expects us to do it for her.

You're not a bad parent to say no to your child, not give in to your child, etc. I don't know why parents are so afraid to say no to their child. Heck -- my parents said no quite a bit when I was a kid and it didn't hurt me. I'm not an emotional train wreck b/c my parents said no a zillion times!!!!!!!

 

[Daxx]

Thought this might be interesting ... remembered reading it a few weeks ago and found it online. Maybe you'll find it helpful!

John Rosemond's Weekly Column 03/06/07

Discipline is leadership

I have said many times before, but I cannot say it often enough: Discipline is leadership. It is not punishment-ship, reward-ship, or consequence-ship. It is the process by which parents transform a self-centered child who thinks he rules the known universe into a disciple—a child who will look up to them, subscribe to their values, and follow their lead.

The principles that define effective leadership do not change from one leadership environment to another. Leadership is leadership. If you know how to lead in a business setting, then you know how to lead a child. In this regard, effective leaders are not defined in terms of how well they manipulate consequences. First and foremost, they are effective communicators. They communicate such that the people they lead believe in them, believe in their mission, and believe in themselves. Thus, effective leaders bring out the best in people. In addition, they are decisive. They say what they mean, and they mean what they say.

So, when a parent tells me that their child “won’t take no for an answer,” I know that the problem is not with the child. I know I am talking to a parent who is impaired in his or her leadership; a parent who cannot say no and stand firm in the face of the child’s displeasure. This is a parent who, as is the custom nowadays, has encouraged the child in question to gamble on tantrums. As is the case with adult slow-learners and slot machines, a child who discovers that tantrums pay off only 20 percent of the time will continue to throw tantrums.

I enjoy taking polls in my audiences, which are not a cross-section of American parents, but rather a cross-section of American parents who want to be the best parents they are capable of being. Generally speaking, they are people who don’t mind when I step on their toes. One such poll is in two parts:

Part One: “Raise your hand if you can say, without the slightest qualification or reservation, that your children know when you say no, you absolutely mean no.”

In a recent audience of some 150 in Atlanta, no one raised a hand. Even in much larger audiences, no more than one or two hands will rise.

Part Two: “Raise your hand if your parents would have raised their hands a moment ago.”

In Atlanta, as is always the case, more than half of the folks present raised a hand, to which I said, “You were undoubtedly a less stressful and more well-behaved child than is your child or children, not because your parents manipulated consequences more effectively than you are doing, but because when they took a stand, they stood firm. Likewise, the problems you are having with your children are not going to be solved by clever behavior modification strategies. They are going to begin coming around when you begin behaving more like your parents, which is to say, when you begin behaving like an effective leader.”

Today’s parents, by and large, do not like to upset their children. Parents of fifty-plus years ago did not care if their children became upset at decisions they made. Today’s parents want their children to like them. Parents of “old” did not care whether their children liked them at any given moment or not. Today’s parents often act as if they’re running for office. Yesterday’s parents acted like they held an office and deserved it.

As we look toward the 2008 elections, we should keep in mind that politicians do not often make good leaders, whether of adults or children.

 

[poohandwendy]

You already know it, but you have to stop reasoning with him and giving in.

I know that isn't easy, but parenting is not for the faint hearted. Maybe you need to remind yourself that what you do now is not just for now, but it is also for the future. If you give in, you ae forming bad habits...for him AND for you. If you take the no-nonsense approach now, he will be less likely to try to pull this sort of stuff in the future.

The most important years are the early ones, they set the stage for the REALLY hard years (teens). You will thank yourself later if you learn not to give in now (out of frustration or whatever).

Good luck with it, we have all been there. Once you get past this, you will realize that the real problem wasn't his behavior, it was yours. His behavior is typical of a child, they think their wants should be granted. Your behavior isn't working. Get yourself back on track, stay consistent and he will follow. He is definitely testing you...and this is an important test that you cannot afford to fail.

 

[poohandwendy]

Awesome article Daxx...BRAVO to the writer!!!

 

[Daxx]

Awesome article Daxx...BRAVO to the writer!!!

You know, I don't always agree w/what John Rosemond writes ... but sometimes he really hits the nail right on the head. You can go to his website: www.johnrosemond.com and read some of his parenting articles there. I always come out learning something from what he has to say/write!

I remembered reading it a few weeks ago in the local newspaper and was hoping it was available on-line b/c it's so pertinent to the OP's problem! I should copy the article and send it to my one parent!!!!

 

[poohandwendy]

Thanks for the link, I will check it out later...sounds interesting

 

[poohandwendy]

I am not sure what I could have done in the situation above where I ask him to do something (go into the gym) and he offers an ultimatium (only if you give me my car)?

Any opinions/suggestions would be appreciated.

I just wanted to add a comment about the above quote. The semantics are important here. Why are you 'asking him' to do something that is a requirement? When you ask someone to do something, you are leaving room for debate. Going to the gym was not debatable, so don't present it like it is.

I think many parents have had it drilled into them that their childrens little psyches need gentle coddling so they seem to walk on eggshells when talking to their kids. I think this sort of reasoning (ie pleading) with children is not only unnecessary, but leads to behavior issues.

 

[Christine]

The most important years are the early ones, they set the stage for the REALLY hard years (teens). You will thank yourself later if you learn not to give in now (out of frustration or whatever).

This is very true.

I have made many parenting mistakes. I am not a perfect parent by any means. My DD (15) has her share of issues, doesn't get great grades, likes to socialize a bit too much, and so on. But one thing I *can* say (and pat myself on the back about) is that when I say "NO" she knows that I mean it. I never really knew that until recently.

As with any teen, my DD will try to push me into letting her do things that are absolutely ridiculous. She is older now so our conversations aren'y simple yes/no answers anymore and we do hash them out. But I usually make my decision and its final. My reward came a few months ago. DD is hanging out with a girl that I don't particularly care for. She pushes her mother ALL OVER THE PLACE. This girl is constantly trying to get my DD to go out and do things that I do not allow. This girl constantly tells my DD that she doesn't know how to "work" me. I finally heard my DD say to this girl: "Jane, you don't KNOW my mom. She won't put up with this arguing and begging. When she says no she means it." Then when the girl was trying to convince my DD to lie to me about going somewhere, she told the girl "My mom is not stupid, she will figure it out."

My DD has told me a number of times that I am much firmer than the "other parents." She doesn't always say that with a smile on her face. But, I think my DD respects me and knows that I'm not a pushover. When it comes to discipline, I do feel like a good leader.

There were days, when my kids were young, and I felt like a heel. I would be at the daycare center playing the "hard-hearted Hannah" part while many of the other mothers were cooing and coddling over the childrens' tantrums. I would just walk out. Yes, I did feel AWFUL and felt like I was the most unloving mom. Many years have passed and I know feel that I did the right thing.

Again, I don't want to be coming off to the OP like I'm perfect. This is just the one area I think I'm pretty good at!

 

[goofinoff]

We use the 1 2 3 method as well. It sounds like you gave him too many choices, which I think is a mistake that a lot of us have made. Our rule is if I get to 3 and the behavior doesn't change they lose either a toy or a privilege that means alot to them, ie computer time, favorite doll etc. Then they have to earn it back by listening and doing what they are told to do. I think this really works better than a time out. I used to do time outs and it got to the point where it was almost a joke. But if they see that they are going to lose something they love, most likely they will change their behavior pretty quick. The key to this, I found, is that you have to make the rules very clear. And you have to be consistant. So if you say you are going to take something away, then do it. Don't threaten and not follow through. Kids pick up on that, I think.
This has worked in our house! Good luck and keep us posted!

 

[DutchsMommy]

Thank you all for your frank and candid feedback. I can't say it wasn't anything I hadn't thought about regarding myself. I made a pact to myself (while crying in the car on the way to work LOL ) that I would stop giving in to him. DH has been saying the same thing to me and I would push it aside and think to myself 'DH is being too hard on DS' (Ward aren't you being a little hard on the Beaver?....anyone ). Anyway, with a little perspective I realized that this is a problem of my own making. So...guess who needs to step and and solve it (that would be me FYI ). One (small) thing I will say in my defensive this morning was I was thinking it wouldn't be fair for me to march out of school and leave a freaking out little monkey for the gym monitor lady to deal with?? Not sure what others think about that? Daxx it looks like you might be a teacher - any thoughts? If this whole situation had happened at home I would not have gone so far down the negotiation highway - although I am guilty of that at home and will definately put an end to it.

In any case.....thought I would give an update on what happened when I picked him up:

Went to the gym again. DS comes running up, nice hugs...all well. Then the question...'Can I show my friends my car?'. Here we go again I thought! Remember your promise to yourself I thought. Look at all the other parents around me while my child is curled up in a ball screaming 'I want my car!!!!!' I thought.....long story short I did NOT give him his *&^% car and did the 1-2-3 thing (I actually do use that fairly successfully but am rather worried we will reach 3 one day . So, teary-eyed sullen DS stomps upthe stairs to the parking lot. The attempt at negotiation continues the whole drive home. I ignore him. (This actually was quite hard as he began the *sniff* *sniff* pleeeease mommy....pleeease give me my car *sniff*. Anyway, I pointed to the clock on the dash and told him that until his behaviour changed he would get timeout. He ended up with 15 mins of time out. I went into the house with no comment, put him in his room with my watch, and he actually sat in there for the whole time!! And when he got out he was much subdued and very polite. So..........one battle won! I am sure there will be another one tomorrow until I establish 'mommy means business' but until then THANK YOU all for your words of encouragement!!!!!!

 

[goofinoff]

Great job!!!!! Keep up the good work, girl!!!!!!!!

We are too hard on ourselves aren't we!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Daxx]

You stood firm, did not give in and now he's discovered his tears won't work on you anymore! Congratulations!

As for what happens when you get to 3 ... you have to decide that -- it can be time out, priveledge taken away but it's your choice and there's not bargaining or negotiating in that, either! And, you must stick to your guns as you've done so this afternoon!

It's not fun being the "mean mom" but it's not fun when you're known as the "total pushover w/the bratty kid" either!

 

[lovetoscrap]

You are on the right road, consistancy is the key though. You must do it EVERY time, no matter how tired, cranky, distracted etc... that you are. I really echo what has been said about the book 1,2,3 Magic by Phelan. Your library may have it and it is an easy read and it tells you what happens when you get to 3!

Also, I don't know if you get the Supernanny or Nanny 911 shows, or something similar there, but if you do sit down and watch them. While much is kind of "tv magic" drama there are some really good ideas about rewards, consequenses, timeouts, routines etc... You can get some good information from watching them.

As a former teacher, I would rather you brought in your screaming, tantruming child to me and then turned and left. Why? Because 9 times out of 10 the child will calm down within 5 mins after you leave, with very little intervention from the teacher. If not then there are usually counselors or other staff that are available and trained to help with the situation. The longer you drag it our or try to fix it the worse it can get. Once your child realizes that you mean business and aren't going to give in to the tantrum everything will be eaiser.

Oh, and one other thing. Once you decide to get tough and take control your child may raise the tantrum level a bit. It may get harder before it gets easier. This is normal. Once the normal tantrum level doesn't work they assume that means they have to get worse to get what they want. You have to be firm. Don't give in or you have just made it all worse. It is hard, but you can do it. YOU are the parent, and your child WANTS you to be the parent. They need to see that you are in control or they feel out of control.

Good Luck--get the book!

 

[minkydog]

Thank you all for your frank and candid feedback. I can't say it wasn't anything I hadn't thought about regarding myself. I made a pact to myself (while crying in the car on the way to work LOL ) that I would stop giving in to him. DH has been saying the same thing to me and I would push it aside and think to myself 'DH is being too hard on DS' (Ward aren't you being a little hard on the Beaver?....anyone ). Anyway, with a little perspective I realized that this is a problem of my own making. So...guess who needs to step and and solve it (that would be me FYI ). One (small) thing I will say in my defensive this morning was I was thinking it wouldn't be fair for me to march out of school and leave a freaking out little monkey for the gym monitor lady to deal with?? Not sure what others think about that?

Oh, I would absolutely recommend leaving the freaking out little monkey for the gym monitor to deal with. He will find out quickly that he doesn't get what he want from her either. I'm guessing they have seen in all before. You told him no, he didn't like. Too bad.

I used to tell my child "I don't negotiate." Now at 3yo he really didnn't know exactly what that word meant but he soon learned that mommy doesn't give in or bargain with children. Ever. And that's important. They might not know the words, but they will figure them out,just like they figured out "blue", "hot", and"fast". If you give in the the whining and wheedling, you're just proving to him that it works. Say your piece and that's it. Use the broken record method, saying it over and over. Do not allow him to wear you down. You think this is hard? Just wait til he's 14--they're much more verbal and bigger then. You have to get on this now. It won't damage him and in the end you will have a happier child who knows his boundaries.

 

[MerryPoppins]

Parenting with Love and Logic worked wonders for our family. You can check out the method at www.loveandlogic.com . Hope you find something that works well for you.

 

[poohandwendy]

Good for you OP, you are on the right track. Try not to overanalyze his behavior and fear 'what if'...make your decision and stick with it. He is not going to stop loving you, not going to be emotionally scarred, not going to spontaniously combust from not getting his way.

Disappointment, that is what he is feeling and he will get over it.