Baby on lap

[tlbwriter]

You are right it isn't 100% safe, but nothing is, so I weigh up the RISK and to me, after researching, deaths and serious injury due to turbulance, the risk is minimal and a risk I am willing to take. If the risk of flying and being injured or killed was the same as travelling in a car my decision would be a different one.

I agree with this. I just hate it when people make the decision based on misinformation.

So, let's look at the reasons for not buying your child a seat on an airplane.

1. If there's a crash, we're all going to die anyway. Wrong! Absolutely not true.
2. If there's a crash or serious turbulence, I'll be able to hold onto him. Wrong! Not true. And even if it was true, not necessarily a good thing in a crash, since he'll become your airbag when the forward motion of the plane stops.
3. I think it's a good idea, but I can't afford his ticket. Then maybe you can't afford this vacation.
4. I've considered the risks and I know children have been injured due to turbulence, and that in a crash, children are safer in a carseat, but I have decided the chance of a crash or dangerous turbulence is so small that I am willing to take my chances. Fine. I wouldn't make the same decision, but at least you're making an informed decision.

 

[xXMyTwoPrincessesXx]

Okay, your post simply said "plane crash." I didn't realize you meant "only really bad plane crash." Does that mean you actually agree with me, that most plane crashes are survivable?

The cruising speed of an airliner is about 500 mph, so the only way it would crash at that speed is if it flew straight into a mountain at full power, or something along those lines. According to the articles I posted earlier, if you exclude crashes like that, that simply aren't survivable at all, but take all other serious crashes, you still have a survival rate of over 70%. That's serious crashes. Not rough landings or aborted takeoffs, but serious crashes.

Still a pretty darn good chance of survival, don't you think?

Please keep in mind that I only slept 2.5 hours yesterday!

Yes, I agree with you that most crashes are survivable (is that a real word! ), but that doesn't say much. Meaning, it doesn't say anything about survival rate of lap babies as opposed to babies in car seats.




What gets me is that a lot of people are insisting that any parent doing this is either a bad parent who cares more about money than her kids safety or an ignorant parent who didn't do any research! All this "just admit that you know that you are putting your child in dangor and risking his life to save a little money, otherwise, you are being ignorant" is ridiculous! Why can't some accept that some parents have different way to look at things, NOT that their kids safety is less important to them than yours is to you.

I can argue that many who are chosing to let their babies ride in their own seats are ignorant and that if they did more research they will
A)Change their mind and never buy a seat for their babies or
B)realize that it's silly and pointless to buy a seat for their babies, but it's ok, because they made an informed decision.

It really goes both ways.

And we can have this arguement about anything!!! I don't allow DD to ride a bicycle because I'm so worried she will fall and get hurt, even with a helmet! Statistically, she's safer without a bike. Doesn't mean that the moms who let their kids ride bikes are wrong!

(Ok, so I made the bicycle thing up to make a point, whatever! )

I have learned a few things from this thread. Thanks everyone!

 

[WicketsMom]

That's interesting, because when we flew in 2008, a SW FA made us put the car seat in the middle seat, stating it was SA policy to do so. I said it seemed like it wouldn't be safe to do that because I would need to climb over her seat in case of emergency, but the FA wouldn't budge. From what I looked up last week, it's the FAA that says they want a car seat by the window. I talked to Southwest last week regarding their car seat policy because of the confusion the last time we flew. The SW manager told me on the phone last week that there is no official SW policy on where a car seat must be placed in a row. SW likes to use the middle seat for car seats because it is a little bit wider than the other seats, but there is no reason why, according to SW policy, the seat can't be placed anywhere in the row. I'm not saying this is right or correct, I'm just stating what the manager told me last week. Our plan is to put the seat by the window, and if I am asked to move it I am going to state what the SW manager told me and what the FAA website says.

That is odd, because this flight was also in 2008 on SWA. I remember because my MIL was on the flight and she was insisting she sit beside my son, so hubby put it in the middle to satisfy her. He got an "I told you so!" from me when I had to move it to the window (which is where I wanted it in the first place!).

I checked Southwest's website and didn't see a specific policy about it either, but we have always used the window seat. I guess since there is no official policy, it is up to the discretion of the flight attendant as to where they want the car seat. It would be a pain to have to crawl over the carseat to get out, especially if DS was sleeping. Plus, he wants to be able to look out the window!

American's policy states a car seat "May not occupy the space between a customer and an aisle." so we should be fine for our next trip.

 

[PatsMom]

Once upon a time, when my now 19 year old daughter was a 4 month old infant, I was planning to travel home for the holidays with her as a lap baby because money was a bit tight for us with the new baby and a recent cross country move. My sister sent me an article from Parents magazine about the Sioux City crash. After bawling my eyes out while reading it, I told my husband that we weren't going if we couldn't buy a ticket for the baby. Any risk I could mitigate I felt I should.

We flew several more times, sometimes all of us and sometimes just her and me. She was always in her car seat and restrained. And pretty much stayed there the entire trip. It was a safe and familiar environment for her and she would pretty much just go to sleep like she did on long car rides.

Everyone will make their own decision based on their personal values and opinions. But I just can't imagine not taking a safety precaution like securing my baby on a plane! Its a minor amount of money so even if you consider it a minor risk, why not just spend it?

I can't imagine trying to assume the brace for impact position with an infant in my arms.

 

[tlbwriter]

What gets me is that a lot of people are insisting that any parent doing this is either a bad parent who cares more about money than her kids safety or an ignorant parent who didn't do any research!

Well, it's because parents will claim they've done research and then they'll say things like "if the plane crashes we'll all die anyway," which indicates to me that they really haven't done enough research to make an informed decision.

 

[jodifla]

Okay, your post simply said "plane crash." I didn't realize you meant "only really bad plane crash." Does that mean you actually agree with me, that most plane crashes are survivable?

The cruising speed of an airliner is about 500 mph, so the only way it would crash at that speed is if it flew straight into a mountain at full power, or something along those lines. According to the articles I posted earlier, if you exclude crashes like that, that simply aren't survivable at all, but take all other serious crashes, you still have a survival rate of over 70%. That's serious crashes. Not rough landings or aborted takeoffs, but serious crashes.

Still a pretty darn good chance of survival, don't you think?

Where are all these plane crashes that people walk away from? I'm curious.

 

[jodifla]

We travel with lapchildren and have never had any problems our flights are at the shortest are 9 hours long. Everyone has their own views on this and you do what ever you are comfortable with, but I did research it for my own information and to make my own informed decision and discovered via AirSafe.com there were 6 people killed from turbulence since 1980 and 80 seriously injured from 2003-2009 given there are aproximately 11 million flights per year the risk is slight so one I will take a chance on. As I said you do what ever you are comfortable with but it isn't an issue for me.

Kirsten

Exactly! It's a statistically insignificant number!!!!

A child in a car seat is the tiniest bit safer than a lap child.

 

[tlbwriter]

Where are all these plane crashes that people walk away from? I'm curious.

Did you read the articles I linked to? I'm pretty sure they mentioned some of them.

 

[jodifla]

I saw a 2005 accident and the Hudson landing. That's it.

Also other interesting tidbits: car seat is a bad idea if the plane is on fire. The aisle seat folks do the best here.

 

[CluelessDisFan]

The point is that you had the information to make that decision, most assume it is safe because it isn't a law.

Hopefully this thread has shared the correct information and more parents can make informed decisions themselves.

I'm glad I read this thread. I hadn't looked into yet, all I knew is that seats weren't mandated, and I thought hey we'll save the money. I would have read more anyhow before I bought the tickets. Now thanks to this thread, I'm buying a ticket. It makes perfect sense.
Afterall I argued with my MIL about keeping my child rear facing even after she turned 1. I thought; what magical thing happens to strengthen her neck the day she turned one or weighed 25lb? Then just last month they changed that recomendation.

 

[Minniemouse07]

I saw a 2005 accident and the Hudson landing. That's it.

Also other interesting tidbits: car seat is a bad idea if the plane is on fire. The aisle seat folks do the best here.

Actually the lap child that died in the Sioux City crash did so due to smoke inhalation, NOT injuries during the crash. The mom lost her grip and they couldn't find the baby before evacuating the plane.

It has been documented in many places that the child would have survived the crash in a car seat installed next to mom, and mom had more than enough time to remove him/her from the seat before evacuating.

There was another mother on the same flight that couldn't hold on to her child, but another passenger found him/her in an overhead bin and the baby was fine.

 

[tlbwriter]

I saw a 2005 accident and the Hudson landing. That's it.

Okay, sorry, I must have remembered articles that I didn't link to. Try these:

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/07/plane-crashes/
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/aviation/safety/4219452
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_358
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_commercial_aircraft#2011

Also other interesting tidbits: car seat is a bad idea if the plane is on fire.

I don't remember that... where was it?

 

[jodifla]

Okay, sorry, I must have remembered articles that I didn't link to. Try these:

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/07/plane-crashes/
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/aviation/safety/4219452
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_358
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_commercial_aircraft#2011



I don't remember that... where was it?

It's in the Huffington Post article. Doesn't mention car seat specifically, but says the aisle seat is best, which car seats of course can't be in.

 

[RMAMom]

My rule is, if I cannot afford a safe seat for every person in my party, especially the youngest and most vulnerable ones, then I can't afford that trip. Period. So I would buy the seat and use my carseat.



It's not for your child's safety, it's for the safety of the other passengers. If you're holding the baby in your arms during a crash (or even bad turbulence), it will become an airborne projectile. They want you to put the baby on the floor so that it will not injure other passengers when it becomes a projectile. And I believe that is still the policy.



If you're going to use something like this, do not use the Baby B'air. There is a similar product that is approved for take-off and landing - the CARES harness: http://www.kidsflysafe.com/

We bought the CARES harness for my older DGD but the harness cannot be used under 22 pounds. The Baby B'Air is for smaller lap babies and will basically prevent you from dropping or throwing the lap baby due to turbulence.

 

[bjakmom]

Before this thread gets closed I'd like to clarify a few points about my story.

They haven't done that for over 20 years. I don't know why someone always brings that up

I specifically stated "back then" because, yes, the flight when my DS was 5 mos was 22 years ago. The very next sentence in my story was "I understand they will now let you hold the baby. . ."

Really! I know. But it's constant. Then they get to Orlando, and put their child on a ME bus without a car seat, with all the talk of "compartmentalization" even though there have been a lot more bus accidents and deaths in the three years than plane crashes.

If you are referring to my account of having to place my son my DS on the floor (which I'm assuming you were as this post followed the above post), I don't know what you mean by "constant" - the last time I posted my story on a lap child thread was back in 2007 - and that was when someone nicely informed me that that was no longer policy (thankfully!). And, no, I have never traveled via ME with an infant - when we travel with an infant and bring a car seat, we rent a car - our personal decision and preference.

Apologies to OP - I did not post my story to inflame a debate - just related the facts of what my experience was and why it lead me to hold the very personal opinion that I do about the safety of lap babies. I realize that few people have ever been in this situation personally - it has only happened to me once and I fly A LOT - so I felt it was an appropriate response to the OP to consider when making a decision.

I have been driving for over 40 years and have never been involved in an accident, but I would never not use a car seat or booster seat for any child in my car. In fact, this debate always reminds me of how upset people got when seat belts and car seats were made mandatory by law - in the early years it was extremely contentious!! Same thing with bike helmets - laws that we now take for granted and most people now accept as necessary for protection. It is my (own personal) hope that they will someday make seats for infants mandatory on flights and ten years from now young parents won't think twice about it - like car seats in cars, it will be the norm.

Have wonderful and safe trips everyone!

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I think we can all agree that the plane that made the emergency landing in the river in New York would be an example of an emergency rough landing correct?

the lap baby on board that flight did just fine, no injuries at all so the parent must have been able to hold onto the child securely and without problems.

The landing that I had with my DD as a lap baby where we had to assume emergency landing positions and brace ourselves I had no problems with my DD and I am a very small person.

Most airplane crashes are catastrophic and whether a child survives has very little to do with a car seat. In many cases being able to escape quickly is the biggest saving grace. And a car seat wouldn't help there.

Actually--she feared she could not hold him. So she asked the gentleman next to her to hold the baby. The position they ask you to go in to brace for impact, he did with that baby. They were fine. (ETA: I vividly recall here interview on one of the news shows the following morning.)

 

[jpeka65844]

DD will be young enough to be a lap baby in Dec when we go to the World. However, after our last experience with DS being a lap baby, we're not so sure we want to chance it.

BUT....we don't want to mess with a car seat. We're staying on property and using Tiffany Town car vans to get our party of 14 to VWL.

Can she still be a lap baby even though we've purchased a seat for her?

Does that make sense?

And before someone brings it up, I know about the CARES harness. It was a disaster and didn't work at all with my son and we're flying an airline whose seats may not be compatible anyway.....

 

[marmalade]

DD will be young enough to be a lap baby in Dec when we go to the World. However, after our last experience with DS being a lap baby, we're not so sure we want to chance it.

BUT....we don't want to mess with a car seat. We're staying on property and using Tiffany Town car vans to get our party of 14 to VWL.

Can she still be a lap baby even though we've purchased a seat for her?

Does that make sense?

And before someone brings it up, I know about the CARES harness. It was a disaster and didn't work at all with my son and we're flying an airline whose seats may not be compatible anyway.....

When my DS was 18 months, we purchased a seat (no carseat) and he had to sit on my lap during takeoff and landing but after that he could either sit in his seat or on my lap.

 

[justhat]

Safety aside (as I am SURE that in 7 pages that has been covered, though I haven't read the whole thread), there is NO WAY I could hold my 1yo on a flight of any duration. Maybe I just have an active toddler, but it just wouldn't happen. She would literally scream the entire flight, in distress that she was trapped in my arms. I know this as she does it anywhere and everywhere we are when she is stuck in my lap/arms. And this is a 15 month old who has only been walking consistently for the past month and even before then it would NOT have been a pleasant experience.

We have flown with her several times, long distances too as we live in AZ but my family's in NJ, and done just fine with her strapped into the carseat. She puts up the same small fight about getting buckled in that she does in the car, but then that's that. She sits in it without a fuss and falls asleep (usually) as the plane is taking off. This would simply not happen in my lap.

 

[tlbwriter]

It's in the Huffington Post article. Doesn't mention car seat specifically, but says the aisle seat is best, which car seats of course can't be in.

Well, from what I've read, the aisle is best because you can get out quickly, but that doesn't mean it's actually a safer spot in terms of your chance of injuries from sitting in that seat. In a fire, I'd rather be a parent in any seat with my child strapped securely next to me than a parent desperately searching for the child I couldn't hold on to.

When my DS was 18 months, we purchased a seat (no carseat) and he had to sit on my lap during takeoff and landing but after that he could either sit in his seat or on my lap.

Was that on a U.S. carrier?

Safety aside (as I am SURE that in 7 pages that has been covered, though I haven't read the whole thread), there is NO WAY I could hold my 1yo on a flight of any duration. Maybe I just have an active toddler, but it just wouldn't happen.

No kidding! I wouldn't want to attempt that either.