Auto Industry

[fussymonkey]

And you think that it will somehow be cheaper for tax payers to pay for wellfare, food stamps and medicaid for these people than to bail out the pension plan?

Look, my 401K has been desimated. But you know, that's what I signed up for. From the day I started working I knew that I would have to do my own retirement planning, no pension for my generation. These guys, the ones my dad's age, they retired in an era in which they had a pension to rely on, it was part of thier contract, and they could count on that.

Hell yes, I feel sympathy for anyone over 60 in this mess. At least I'm young enough to keep working and re- build. What does someone who is 65 and in so-so health do when the pension disappers?

You know, I think its radically STUPID to live on the mudslide prone hillsides or wildfire prone areas in California. I think its stupid to live below sea level in New Orleans or a hurricane vulnerable trailer park in FL. Disasters happen in these areas again and again, and we taxpayers keep bailing them out. Becuase its smart? No, becuase we are human beings who, however much we beleive in personal responsibilty, also believe in compassion.

If/when GM and Chrysler liquidate, the devestation to this entire region will be beyond belief. It will be like Katrina hit, crime escalating, hundreds of thousands unemployed, hospitals operating in the red becuase nobody in insured, all the thousands of suppliers folding, and then all the service business, like retail and restaurants, collapsing. You just have no clue what it means to have no compassion for people caught in this, in this area of the country.

I am praying to a quick, healthy bankrupcy that frees the automakers from legacy debt and union contracts and allows them to be leaner, more veristile and profitable. But we are all going to live or die together in this... there's no pointing the blame finger here.

 

[wall*e2008]

My reps? I had no reps. What are you talking about?

Representatives in Congress.

Washington is being called on to bail out the auto industry but they did not bail out the coal industry, shoe making industry, clothing industry, telecom industry and on and on. So why should they only do it for the auto industry.

 

[ols386]

Representatives in Congress.

Washington is being called on to bail out the auto industry but they did not bail out the coal industry, shoe making industry, clothing industry, telecom industry and on and on. So why should they only do it for the auto industry.

Because if they don't, it will have a devastating impact on the U.S. economy. It will be even more of a mess than it is right now.

 

[wall*e2008]

I am praying to a quick, healthy bankrupcy that frees the automakers from legacy debt and union contracts and allows them to be leaner, more veristile and profitable. But we are all going to live or die together in this... there's no pointing the blame finger here.

This is what I want. This will result in lower pensions and benefit for the retiree.

So should Uncle Sam give me money because my 401K lost money. Isn't that cheaper than my going on welfare, food stamps and medicaid?

 

[wall*e2008]

Because if they don't, it will have a devastating impact on the U.S. economy. It will be even more of a mess than it is right now.

When the dot coms went under it threw the economy into a recession but nothing was done them. This mess needs to go through bankruptcy and all contracts need to be renegotiated. GM needs to come out as a lean, mean auto company. All this bail out just keep the bloated beached whale on life support.

 

[ols386]

And you think that it will somehow be cheaper for tax payers to pay for wellfare, food stamps and medicaid for these people than to bail out the pension plan?

Look, my 401K has been desimated. But you know, that's what I signed up for. From the day I started working I knew that I would have to do my own retirement planning, no pension for my generation. These guys, the ones my dad's age, they retired in an era in which they had a pension to rely on, it was part of thier contract, and they could count on that.

Hell yes, I feel sympathy for anyone over 60 in this mess. At least I'm young enough to keep working and re- build. What does someone who is 65 and in so-so health do when the pension disappers?

You know, I think its radically STUPID to live on the mudslide prone hillsides or wildfire prone areas in California. I think its stupid to live below sea level in New Orleans or a hurricane vulnerable trailer park in FL. Disasters happen in these areas again and again, and we taxpayers keep bailing them out. Becuase its smart? No, becuase we are human beings who, however much we beleive in personal responsibilty, also believe in compassion.
If/when GM and Chrysler liquidate, the devestation to this entire region will be beyond belief. It will be like Katrina hit, crime escalating, hundreds of thousands unemployed, hospitals operating in the red becuase nobody in insured, all the thousands of suppliers folding, and then all the service business, like retail and restaurants, collapsing. You just have no clue what it means to have no compassion for people caught in this, in this area of the country.

I am praying to a quick, healthy bankrupcy that frees the automakers from legacy debt and union contracts and allows them to be leaner, more veristile and profitable. But we are all going to live or die together in this... there's no pointing the blame finger here.

You pretty much said it all.

 

[ols386]

When the dot coms went under it threw the economy into a recession but nothing was done them. This mess needs to go through bankruptcy and all contracts need to be renegotiated. GM needs to come out as a lean, mean auto company. All this bail out just keep the bloated beached whale on life support.

I agree, GM does need to come out as a lean, mean auto company.

But if GM goes under now, it's going to put the economy into MORE than just a recession. When I say 'goes under', I'm not talking about bankruptcy, I'm talking about a complete liquidation.

By the way, I didn't work at GM, I worked for an automotive components supplier. It was not part of GM.

 

[fussymonkey]

So should Uncle Sam give me money because my 401K lost money. Isn't that cheaper than my going on welfare, food stamps and medicaid?

I get what you're sayin, WallE, but that's an apples-to-oranges comparison. The OEMs had contracts to pay the pensions. The retirees have no control over those pensions, they are at the mercy of thier former employer's ability to pay.

You have control over your 401K. Absolutely it has been devestating- God knows mine has shrunk like Alice in Wonderland- but I invested it, and I can control it. If I were over 45 I'd have that mother in uber conservative investments that haven't suffered as much, I may have converted some to an annuity.

Additonally, persumably your 401K can recover once this recession ends. If the former employer liquidates, the pension holders are still screwed.

I believe in personal responsibility. I really do. But when hundreds of thousands of senior citizens are loosing thier income, I just don't see how its not in my best interest to afford some kind of assistance.

 

[Golf4food]

When the dot coms went under it threw the economy into a recession but nothing was done them. This mess needs to go through bankruptcy and all contracts need to be renegotiated. GM needs to come out as a lean, mean auto company. All this bail out just keep the bloated beached whale on life support.

The DOT coms by nature did not employ anywhere near as many people as the auto industry. You can have a website with only one person behind the scenes running it and all the money coming from investors (risking their OWN money). The auto industry isn't just in Detroit. It is in every city and small town in America as either a car factory, a parts factory, an insurance company, a car dealership, a mechanic, a car wash, a gas station, etc. There are millions more "little people" involved in the auto industry than ever were or will be involved in the DOTcoms.

I can have sympathy for individual people, but the same greed of those people and the UAW that for years drove up wages and benefits beyond where the companies could realistically support them in a modern global economy is what got them into this mess to begin with, so in many ways they made their own bed.

Unfortunately now many other people who never got those wages or benefits are suffering in this downfall.

 

[CowboyCO]

I just saw on the news that GM stock is under a dollarscared1: I personally feel like bankruptcy would be the best thing in the world for them. Let them regroup

It's not even going to be a real bankruptcy. It's a government/union takeover of the largest automaker in the world. When the dust clears in 90 days, the Gub'ment will own 79% of GM, the UAW will own 20% and bondholders will own the rest (after they lose 90% of their prior stake). Stockholders get nuthin'.

GM = Gub'ment Motors.* This isn't being posted to incite a political discussion about whether the Feds should or should not take over GM. Don't want to break the rules.

 

[C.Ann]

When you work for a company for many many years, and then almost get to the point where you can collect a pension, and then all of a sudden the company closes, and the pension is gone, or greatly reduced, it IS a difficult situation. And it's not that easy to go out and find another job if you're in your 50s or 60s.

The other thing is, many people who hired in at some of the automotive companies 30 years ago, thought that they WOULD be working there for their entire lives, and WOULD be receiving health care benefits and a pension, and then all of a sudden it's gone. Course, 30 years ago, who would have thought that the automotive companies might be going under.

I retired about 4 years ago from an automitive company (not GM, but an automotive components supplier company), and recently lost my health care benefits, and may soon have my pension reduced by at least 40%. I don't expect any sympathy from ANYONE, but it's not a good place to be in.

I think saying that they had it too good for too long, is an extremely insensitive thing to say.

So if you had been offered a job at a U.S. automotive company, many years ago, with the good wages and benefits, and you were someone who could not afford to attend college in hopes of obtaining a well-paying job, you would have turned it down?

Your sensitivity is overwhelming.

OK, it's very insensitive! Many of these workers are in their 60s and 70s now. Kind of late to be looking for a job now.

Pensions should be honored.

Again, you are generalizing. Basically saying that the people who've lost their jobs, didn't do any kind of financial planning. How do you know how individuals have planned? You don't.

Things were very different 30 years ago. Obviously, if we knew then what we know now, we may have planned differently. Not everyone has a crystal ball and can predict the future. A person cannot plan perfectly for everything in life. And sometimes the handwriting on the wall, isn't always so legible.

Again, your insensitivity is astonishing.

I wonder if you would feel the same if you were in your 60s and lost a big chunk of your pension, AND your medical benefits. I bet you'd be singing a different tune.

And you think that it will somehow be cheaper for tax payers to pay for wellfare, food stamps and medicaid for these people than to bail out the pension plan?

Look, my 401K has been desimated. But you know, that's what I signed up for. From the day I started working I knew that I would have to do my own retirement planning, no pension for my generation. These guys, the ones my dad's age, they retired in an era in which they had a pension to rely on, it was part of thier contract, and they could count on that.

Hell yes, I feel sympathy for anyone over 60 in this mess. At least I'm young enough to keep working and re- build. What does someone who is 65 and in so-so health do when the pension disappers?

You know, I think its radically STUPID to live on the mudslide prone hillsides or wildfire prone areas in California. I think its stupid to live below sea level in New Orleans or a hurricane vulnerable trailer park in FL. Disasters happen in these areas again and again, and we taxpayers keep bailing them out. Becuase its smart? No, becuase we are human beings who, however much we beleive in personal responsibilty, also believe in compassion.

If/when GM and Chrysler liquidate, the devestation to this entire region will be beyond belief. It will be like Katrina hit, crime escalating, hundreds of thousands unemployed, hospitals operating in the red becuase nobody in insured, all the thousands of suppliers folding, and then all the service business, like retail and restaurants, collapsing. You just have no clue what it means to have no compassion for people caught in this, in this area of the country.

I am praying to a quick, healthy bankrupcy that frees the automakers from legacy debt and union contracts and allows them to be leaner, more veristile and profitable. But we are all going to live or die together in this... there's no pointing the blame finger here.

--------------------

Pretty much says it all.. A big part of the communication problem with these types of discussions is that for the most part, many DISer's are not in the "60" age group - some weren't even born 30 years ago or were only toddlers or very small children.. They don't understand that Jobs and pensions were very, very different back then.. Times have changed - and for many they changed dramatically at a point in their lives when they didn't have the options that many DISer's do now..

I don't understand how anyone could not have compassion for what the "older" generation is now faced with in this current economic situation.. Those people "did" provide for themselves - and their children.. They lived their lives with the assumption that when they retired, what they had been promised would be there.. Much like the younger generation lives their lives assuming that they will have a paycheck next week - or they can pay off their credit cards at the end of the month - or their 401K's will be there to provide for them in their old age..

I wouldn't wish this on anyone - young or old..

 

[Cor44432]

It's ironic that when it was the Wall St. bankers getting the bailout and yet
still paying out their bonuses to their top execs., it was because they had
"contracts" that needed to be honored. Yet when the blue collar autoworker
has his/her feet to the fire, their contracts don't seem to be worth the
paper they are printed on

I don't think the government really "wants" any part of owning GM forever,
but in the short term this might be their only card to play until GM restructures
and comes out of this mess.

 

[bicker]

There is a fundamental difference between feeling bad about what is happening and making rational decisions about what action should be taken.

The explicit or implicit implication that a preferred approach to dealing with the economic troubles is nefarious, despite how that approach might not relieve suffering on the part of some people, is wildly antagonistic and inappropriate.

 

[fussymonkey]

There is a fundamental difference between feeling bad about what is happening and making rational decisions about what action should be taken.

The explicit or implicit implication that a preferred approach to dealing with the economic troubles is nefarious, despite how that approach might not relieve suffering on the part of some people, is wildly antagonistic and inappropriate.

there's nothing inappropriate about calling a heartless ******* a heartless *******.

 

[S. C.]

I think the workers got too greedy. If Japanese companies can do it with lower salaries..then so should the North American's. They are thriving..I think they are reaping what they have sown here.

And don't be on here crying to us now that those greedy little autoworkers won't have the extra money to spend on your business. Because I sure won't feel sorry for you when your income goes down.

Sorry, I lost my 'sensitivity' last year when my daughter graduated University after 5 LONG years with an Engineering/Chemistry degree and is STILL unemployed. She has to go back to do her Masters to give herself yet another edge.More money from Mom and Dad. Nobody's tax dollars are helping her out and nobody cares either!

Sorry, no sympathy here.

Just think, If the auto companies were thriving she could of landed a wonderful job with one of the big three. YOU WOULD OF BEEN PROUD THEN and on here bragging how hard she worked to get her degree and landed such a good job.

It is NOT just the auto companies that are in bad shape. In case you haven't noticed the whole economy is hurting. Sorry your daughter does not have a high paying job, but you know what... either do my children. They work for very little money but are out there doing the best they can. In this economy they are lucky to have a job. I should say my DS had a job, he was laid off 3 wks ago with the possibility that he might get called back by the end of summer.

My husband is self employed. There is NO Pension. It's been up to us to make the provisions along the way to protect ourselves. And trust me, when he began working there was no such thing as a $28 per hour starting salary! It was lean and mean.

Do you honestly think the auto workers started out with $28 an hour. The day of new hires was over years ago.

 

[gina2000]

I feel sorry for anyone who worked for years with an expectation of future payment that has been now blown to bits. People do take jobs based on benefits and pension expectations and to have them blow up in your face during your golden years really, really sucks.

We're going to have more people needing Medicaid, food stamps, soup kitchens, and public aid as a result of this economic mess. I don't know what the answer is but a cold-hearted, I-don't-give-a-rat's-behind attitude will come back to bite you in the derriere. We're all going to sink.....or swim.....together.

 

[RitaZ.]

My daughter is already competing against those that have been laid off and are taking the 'entry level' jobs that the Grads usually take.

I do not wish ill for anyone..I am saying that nobody is bailing her out or her fellow unemployed grads either. And I am tired of seeing my money help out the Auto Industry. I have long been a GM (North American Cars) supporter..not any more. Enough is enough. They can't get it right. Way too many chances thus far in my opinion.

Off topic. Which type of engineering did she get her degree in?

 

[minnie56]

Off topic. Which type of engineering did she get her degree in?

Engineering/Chemistry..Biomedical, Pharmaceutical ..those fields for example.

Oh and S.C..my daughter has NO job let alone a high paying job! Despite many thousands of dollars and 5 years to educate her. She will now do her Masters to the tune of another $30,000+ dollars and still, no guarantees. Life's like that, for all of us. Even in the Auto Industry.

 

[RitaZ.]

Engineering/Chemistry..Biomedical, Pharmaceutical ..those fields for example.

Oh, she'll need an MS for that. I was going to offer a suggestion, since you are in Toronto. It wouldn't work for her degree, though. Good luck to her!

 

[minnie56]

Oh, she'll need an MS for that. I was going to offer a suggestion, since you are in Toronto. It wouldn't work for her degree, though. Good luck to her!

Thank you...I think she will do her Masters and hopefully there will be an upswing in the economy and jobs will open up in time. She has worked very hard to get where she is.