Auburn MA Public School Bus Fee - Update pg 13 #184

[HooKooDooKu]

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[HooKooDooKu]

I have argued the distance route as well, the interim superintendant has dismissed speaking with me - cut me off mid conversation with a "well Thank you for calling." While distance is an issue, MA state regulations allow some flexibility. The guidelines leave room for shades of gray like safety/health issues (I think crossing 2 busy intersections with no crossing guard/lights fits the safety issue.) while the interim superintendant only sees in black & white.

I think the problem is that they have evidence that you're only 1.9 miles away (MapQuest) but you expect them to take your word that it's really 2.0. You are going to have to provide evidence your self that the distance is really 2.0 and your evidence has to be stronger than their evidence of MapQuest.

Now I'm trying to be on your side, but I have to admit that you haven't provided any evidence that your house is more than the 1.9 miles MapQuest quotes. So far your only evidence is that you SAY your odometer measures 2.0. Even if I take your word for it (and I do), the problem is that I know odometers are not neccessarily more accurate than MapQuest. After all, you can likely increase the distance to about 2.1 miles if you drop your tire pressure to about 12psi and make the measurement again.

So if you are going to argue distance, you have to have something you can put in front of them (not just over the phone) to prove your case. Short of hiring a surveyor to make the measurement and writting you a certified letter (which would certainly have to be considered better evidence), the best thing I can think of is Google Earth.

Now to start your hard evidence, below is an image of a random football field in MA that I found just scanning Google Earth. I've taken a measurement with Google Earth's Measuring Stick tool and taken a screen shot (resolution has been reduced to post here on the web). It might be tough to see, but you can see that Google Earth measured the distance at 299.64 feet (pretty darn accurate, and you'll need a baseline measurement like this to prove the accuracy of Google Earth).

Now you'll see that Google Earth's measuring tool has a "path" mode. You can use that to measure the street distance from your house to the school.

Of course the other thing you will need is what is the wording of the law (i.e. is the measurement from your house to the school, is it from your assigned bus stop to the school, is it from your driveway to the entrance of the road that leads to the school, is it your front door to the schools front door as you would need to walk? or is it as the crow flys, etc.

And like I said, if you're not familer with Google Earth, PM me the addresses and I can help you make the measurements (would still need to know exactly what to measure).

 

[WendyisDarling]

Yes me too!! They always put my kids on a Handicapp bus and neither one are Handicapp I get made because if they ride the Handicap bus they take them out of school 20-30minutes early. They end up not getting all there homework or they forget something because they are rushed.

I haven't read many of the replies, but had to respond to this one.
Schools may not end the school day early for disabled children unless it specifies in their IEP that a shorter day is needed (not many IEP's do). They are violating the law.
More information http://www.wrightslaw.com/advoc/ltrs/kids_sent_home.htm You may want to forward that on to your school, if you want the early dismissal to stop. Better yet, find an active parent of a disabled child on that bus and give him/her the info.

 

[It's A Happy Day]

I think the problem is that they have evidence that you're only 1.9 miles away (MapQuest) but you expect them to take your word that it's really 2.0. You are going to have to provide evidence your self that the distance is really 2.0 and your evidence has to be stronger than their evidence of MapQuest.

I have provided them (last year & this year) with documentation - it is a print out showing the same route as Mapquest only that printout shows 2.0 miles vs. the 1.9 miles, not just my word on an odometer reading. That is part of my arguement. We are truly a borderline case and I cannot believe that we are the only 1. If you go by map 1 the school is right, map 2 we are. This is where I think common sense should prevail. We are talking about a 1/2 day kindergarten student and a 1st grader, not a high schooler that has a little more street smarts, common sense, and physical ability to fight off an attempted attack/abduction.

 

[NVDisMom]

I have not read the entire string...but could you contact the school board directly regarding this issue. Circumvent the superintendant and go for the people that are beholden to the voters for their position? Or the local news media if all else fails? Be sure to document the communication you have had or lack thereof with this years super and see if you can ruffle a few feathers to get your way. Usually the squeaky wheel gets the grease. NOBODY wants a scandal on their hands. How bad would it look to the local voting base if
1st grader Little Suzie Q were to be hit by a car while crossing the street? I would also get the exact wording of the law. The safety issue is more paramount here than the distance in my opinion.

 

[HooKooDooKu]

I have provided them (last year & this year) with documentation - it is a print out showing the same route as Mapquest only that printout shows 2.0 miles vs. the 1.9 miles, not just my word on an odometer reading. That is part of my arguement. We are truly a borderline case and I cannot believe that we are the only 1. If you go by map 1 the school is right, map 2 we are. This is where I think common sense should prevail. We are talking about a 1/2 day kindergarten student and a 1st grader, not a high schooler that has a little more street smarts, common sense, and physical ability to fight off an attempted attack/abduction.

Geez... it's not like the guy making the desion is getting the money (is he?). You'd think he'd be more likely to go leanient on such a borderline case.

I can only imagine that his line of thinking is that MaqQuest is EASY (stick in two addresses and out pops the distance) and the easy test comes back with 1.9 miles, so you don't get a bus pass.

So if the reality is that MapQuest is WRONG and you are 2.0 miles away, I think the only way your going to win is to collect enough evidence that is easy to understand that you can give to this guy he can use as a CYA when someone tries the argument of "well is she gets a pass at 1.9 miles, why don't I?".

...of course that's it... that's the road he doesn't want to go down. If he gives you a pass at 1.9 miles, he has to give everyone a pass at 1.9 miles... then we start getting into 1.9 mile boarder cases... where will it ever end (thinking from his point of view).

So if I'm interpreting the sitution correctly now, TODAY MapQuest says you are 1.9 miles away, and that is what he's using as his ruler. He doesn't care about what MapQuest said last year (after all, it's too easy to argue that MapQuest must be improving and therefore the current 1.9 mile distance is more accurate than the old obsolete 2.0 mile distance).

So I think the only way you are going to win this is to provide ample documentation that the school can put on file that indicates your house is really 2.0 miles away and not the 1.9 miles MapQuest indicates. That way the entire school system has a CYA to grant you a pass when the yard stick they use indicates you don't deserve one.

And again, the only CHEAP but reasonably accurate measuring stick I can think of is Google Earth. If it can be used to measure the length of a football field to within 1/2 foot, I would think it can accurate enough to measure the distance from your house to the school to within better than 1/10 of a mile. After all, based on the football field measurement, it sounds like Google Earth should be accurate to within less than 100ft in a 2 mile distance (1/10 mile is about 500 feet... and that's what this whole discussion is about, a distance of 500 feet... imagine that).

 

[It's A Happy Day]

I have not read the entire string...but could you contact the school board directly regarding this issue. Circumvent the superintendant and go for the people that are beholden to the voters for their position? Or the local news media if all else fails? Be sure to document the communication you have had or lack thereof with this years super and see if you can ruffle a few feathers to get your way. Usually the squeaky wheel gets the grease. NOBODY wants a scandal on their hands. How bad would it look to the local voting base if
1st grader Little Suzie Q were to be hit by a car while crossing the street? I would also get the exact wording of the law. The safety issue is more paramount here than the distance in my opinion.

Basicly that is where we are at - printing in 2 papers, letter to school committee, attending school committee meeting tom. night (that should be interesting )

 

[It's A Happy Day]

What a day! And no I am not dropping it

Well, 2 articles ran today - 1 in the local town newspaper & 1 in the county paper. Then tonight I had the school committee meeting (6PM). I spent the afternoon mapping out different routes, the direct route reported by Mapquest, yahoo, google earth, msn.com maps and all routes have me traveling the same 2 routes - again some show 1.89, 1.9, 2.0 miles depending on which service you use and the "way" you run the search. No matter which way I ran it on the computer, it was always the same streets, routes so I drove those routes, checked for crossing guards, actually took pictures of the 2 major intersections my children would have to cross, etc. Neither of the routes on mapquest, etc. would have provided my children with a safe environment to walk to school - no crossing guards at all, and 2 major intersections. The town school claims (quoted in paper) there are 5 crossing guards on the shortest route traveled for my son - they named the streets and routes to travel and 1st of all they would have to drive the whole side of town I live in to come up with the idiotic route they picked. No mapping system would have chosen it! Someone trying to negate my argument would though - it is full of turns and a heck of a hill to climb! It is the only route my children could travel that would be considered "safe" in the eyes of anyone - Really, that is the only route that would provide crossing guards. However, using google earth I had to break the trip up in 2 in order to get mileage (it just so happens my inlaws are in the travel trip so I used their address as the break point) as search reports show that route just does not compute. Even with breaking the search in 2 it reports a total of 2.1 miles! They deny that it is a longer route, and claim it is the shortest

But anyway, they have heard my plea and have decided that maybe some changes should take place with at least the notification policy as far as letting parents who put in applications know there is a problem and to contact the school dept. instead of leaving it up to the parents to find out at the start of school their children cannot ride the bus for whatever reason. They will not rule on my case (as far as getting the bus pass) until next week so that they have time to discuss it. Meanwhile I am going to have to put in writing a request asking them again what specific route they feel is the shortest so that I can add that to my growing pile of papers. Then I would know what way we should travel as well because apparently I have no clue.

ETA: The whole last year decision vs. this year decision debate. The school committee reports that the superintendant does not have the power to waive bus pass fees and was not authorized to make that decision and therefor the ruling was overturned. I am to consider myself lucky that I got a present last year by her waiving it even though there is no documentation that she acted alone or with consent just documentation that it was waived.

Oh, and public speaking is definitely NOT my thing. I managed to keep my composure, speak facts, and not blow up and look like a raving lunatic - although I wanted too I thought I was either going to burst out crying, throw up, or pass out! DH still can't believe I actually went through going to the meeting! He does support and believe in what I am trying to accomplish and has even said that this has been my only fight as a mother that I have stood up for and gone after. That it is not a ridiculous request and the school is being absurd.

 

[HooKooDooKu]

Congradulations on doing so well at the public speaking.

I'm not suprised they've effectively made any facts from last year moot... but it does seem suprizing that they seem to almost be going out of their way to make this difficult. And if I'm understanding you correctly, it sounds like the shortest path is somewhere between 1.9 to 2.0 miles (and is the basis on which they are deniying you a pass), but then give you an out-of-the way "safe path" you are supposed to take that is beyond the 2.0... don't see how they can have it both ways.

Good Luck and keep us up todate.

 

[sarahlovesmickey]

Awww, Sally this whole situation sucks. Is there anyway that you can drive them to and from school? I mean, I know it is probably not convenient, but it would be so sad if they had to walk back and forth to school, given that they are so young. I wish you luck and hope that the school will give in!! =)

 

[NVDisMom]

Cheering you on. Taking on public officials that only see dollar signs where they should see children is not an easy thing! Good for you for sticking to your guns on this.

 

[It's A Happy Day]

Awww, Sally this whole situation sucks. Is there anyway that you can drive them to and from school? I mean, I know it is probably not convenient, but it would be so sad if they had to walk back and forth to school, given that they are so young. I wish you luck and hope that the school will give in!! =)

I will NOT let them walk! School is already in session here and I have been driving them. There is no way me as a parent would expect my 5 & 6 year old to walk the distance nor the routes they feel they could. Hypothetically speaking if I did let them walk I think a couple things would happen:
#1 Someone will stop and ask my child(ren) why they are walking the streets alone - especially on the way home as 1 is out around 11:00 and the other around 2:30 so they would not be walking together! DSS will then be called in because I have my kids out walking the streets
#2 By the time my child reaches the crosswalks where the crossing guards are stationed on this bizarre route, the crossing guards have long gone home because they *think* that all the children are already gone. The crossing guards are stationed near 2 schools - 1 near my kids school and 1 near the grade 3-5 school that is closer to us. So now we are back to the no crossing guard issue.
and #3 The scariest of all possibilities - someone hits or abducts my child.

 

[cats mom]

Am I not clear on the situation?

As I understand it the OPs children would not be forced to walk, they CAN ride the bus, it's just that they would have to pay a fee to do so if the school holds firm with their determination that OPs house is less than 2 miles away.

Personally I'd suck it up, pay the fee and save my energy for bigger battles.
Of course my judgement is colored by the fact that we're paying over $1,000 in bus fees this year (3 kids) and we do meet all the mileage requirements... $200 and the option to ride, even though the school has determined OP does not live within bus boundaries, sounds like a bargain to me.

I'm guessing hookoodooku is right. The powers that be have probably pulled out the maps to see exactly how many other families could be affected if they waived the fee for folks who are borderline. You waive it for one, especially when it's a well publicized battle, and all of a sudden you've got a dozen other folks asking for the same thing.

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

Congrats on the public speaking at the meeting OP
I know that's not an easy thing to do.

 

[It's A Happy Day]

Am I not clear on the situation?

As I understand it the OPs children would not be forced to walk, they CAN ride the bus, it's just that they would have to pay a fee to do so if the school holds firm with their determination that OPs house is less than 2 miles away.

Personally I'd suck it up, pay the fee and save my energy for bigger battles.
Of course my judgement is colored by the fact that we're paying over $1,000 in bus fees this year (3 kids) and we do meet all the mileage requirements... $200 and the option to ride, even though the school has determined OP does not live within bus boundaries, sounds like a bargain to me.

I'm guessing hookoodooku is right. The powers that be have probably pulled out the maps to see exactly how many other families could be affected if they waived the fee for folks who are borderline. You waive it for one, especially when it's a well publicized battle, and all of a sudden you've got a dozen other folks asking for the same thing.

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

Congrats on the public speaking at the meeting OP
I know that's not an easy thing to do.

I have stated previously, but will repeat:
We argued this last year, the pass was provided last year at no cost. The superintendant waived the fee. We were assured that as long as we were at that school and lived in this house it would be all set. Superintendant changed, ruling got thrown out. No documentation can be found in the school departments office to support the decision. I do not know if she made the decision based on mileage (arguable) or safety - 2 major intersections, no crossing guards, no sidewalks. She never implied in her correspondence to me why she made that decision. Had she decided against us LAST year I would not have even attempted to argue the point this year, we would be providing the transportation.

As far as the fall out for the "well publicized battle" It didn't have to be that way. They would not discuss it in private and I was told to "do what I have to do." The bus pass set up in general has issues. They have at this point admitted publicly that they did not keep good records last year - there is nothing on file other than that the fee was waived - nothing recorded that the super last year did or did not act alone or with school committee support. The school system could have made phone calls or sent a form letter to the 15 families that did not receive buss passes for whatever reason to notify them. They did no notification. I found out through another parent, then I had to call the school to find out why we did not receive the pass. I have NEVER to this day received a call back from a school figure although I left at least 1 if not 2 messages per day - 1 in the AM, 1 in the PM. Not the super, a secretary, nobody has picked up a phone to notifiy me they are looking into it, this is the decision, nothing. Twice the office/superintendant left early, Friday early by HOURS. Why would you do that and then claim you are too busy to return phone calls at this time due to school openings, meetings, etc. If you can leave early then you can return a call to a concerned parent regardless of the decision. So had they made an effort at all it probably would not have been a public issue, I really am not a public figure type of person and can't believe that I actually followed through on it. It made me physically ill last night to stand up in front of camera to make my plea.

 

[LoveBWVVBR]

Honestly, I'm a fighter too, but you really have to pick your battles. This one isn't worth the energy that you are expending on it IMHO. My old town in Central MA had to charge for busing after the Prop. 2 1/2 override to fund the buses failed. If this issue is that important to you, I'd put my energy into getting a Prop. 2 1/2 override onto the ballot to fund the buses rather than arguing over $200. Auburn isn't exactly a huge town, and you're risking some sort of retaliation in the future by the powers-that-be over $200. I don't think that it's a great idea.

 

[It's A Happy Day]

Honestly, I'm a fighter too, but you really have to pick your battles. This one isn't worth the energy that you are expending on it IMHO. My old town in Central MA had to charge for busing after the Prop. 2 1/2 override to fund the buses failed. If this issue is that important to you, I'd put my energy into getting a Prop. 2 1/2 override onto the ballot to fund the buses rather than arguing over $200. Auburn isn't exactly a huge town, and you're risking some sort of retaliation in the future by the powers-that-be over $200. I don't think that it's a great idea.

I understand what your saying but we are talking about $600 not $200 as far as the money. It is $200 x 3 years - and that is saying that they do not raise the amount over the next 2 years. Because of the poor record keeping skills of the school, I pay the $600 bill (although spaced out over 3 years)? Also according to 1 person I spoke to we did get the prop 2.5 override but I would need to look into that more to confirm it. I received a decision from the school last year and I trusted that it was documented properly, waived by the proper people - I guess the next time the school superintendant makes a decision I will have to get it in writing from every other public figure in the town so that that decision sticks. Lets say hypothetically the school committee rules in my favor, next year will I have to approach the town hall because the school committee doesn't have the right to make those decisions Where does it end. Who has the authority to make what decision and how is an everyday parent supposed to know these chains of command vs. taking an authority figure of the schools decisions at that. I was told last year and again this year that in order to get the fee waived I would need to speak to the superintendant, I did that. At no time was I told I needed to address it with the school committee and that the super was not authorized to make these decisions until I called the state dept. of ed and they said to appeal this years supers decision to the school committee.

 

[LoveBWVVBR]

Auburn got the Prop. 2 1/2 override to pay for busing and you still pay for busing? If the override passed, I would refuse to pay for busing based up on the fact that they raised my taxes to pay for it! If the override passed only for people more than 2 miles from the school, then I really think you're stuck. It sounds to me like you might have gotten lucky last year, unfortunately. They have to use a uniform way to measure distance from the school, and there are always going to be borderline cases.

FWIW, I was one of the people who voted against the override in my town (most people did). They had so many override votes that people felt nickled-and-dimed to death. Are you sure that this override passed in your town? It was pretty unpopular in my old town, that's for sure. It failed by a really wide margin.

 

[gottaluvdis]

From these boards I have learned to LOVE the state of Pennsylvania! No book fees, no bus fees, no providing supplies to the classrooms...I am never complaining about this state again.

Ditto for NH!

 

[cats mom]

I have stated previously, but will repeat:
We argued this last year, the pass was provided last year at no cost. The superintendant waived the fee. We were assured that as long as we were at that school and lived in this house it would be all set. Superintendant changed, ruling got thrown out. No documentation can be found in the school departments office to support the decision. I do not know if she made the decision based on mileage (arguable) or safety - 2 major intersections, no crossing guards, no sidewalks. She never implied in her correspondence to me why she made that decision. Had she decided against us LAST year I would not have even attempted to argue the point this year, we would be providing the transportation.

Unfortunately it sounds like it might have been a case of last years' super deciding to quietly shuffle a few papers, be the good gal, and take care of the squeaky wheel; proper procedures notwithstanding.

Believe me, I've been the beneficiary of taking my case up the ladder far enough that I got to someone who just wanted to get rid of me... so they gave in; even though had they followed their own guidelines, I would have been tough out of luck. They knew it and so did I. It happens.

Maybe I'm reading too much into your posts, but it sounds to me like the old super may have been making up a few rules as she went along? If that's the case, I've got to think everyone will be extra careful not to do the same, at least for now.

Honestly I applaud your efforts. It sounds like you've already made an impact. Hopefully they'll institute a new system for notifications and will let folks know exactly what the appeal process is if they question the schools' decision. That's a good thing!

 

[i like stitch]

I haven't read through the entire 10 or so pages of this thread but have read enough to think that denying a child transportation unless a fee is paid is plain nuts!

Our schools here are reimbursed from the government for transporting kids who live 2 or more miles from school. However, no one is denied transportation by the school district. A child who lives across the street can be transported, if needed, free of charge by the school. I don't know how you can expect children to do their best in school if they have to be exposed unnecessarily to the stress of safety/transportation issues.