Are the Days of Walking a DVC Reservation Numbered?

[BeachClub2014]

What is clear is that nothing is very clear when it concerns "walking"

Exactly! But it sure makes for an interesting discussion.

 

[CraigInPA]

That, or machines are really bad when there isn't predictability. Knowing that the reservations open at exactly 8:00:00 is predictable and it makes writing a script really easy. If you open them at some random time that changes every day between 08:00:00 and 08:10:00, humans can adapt to the unknown much easier than the machines. I'm fine sitting clicking "refresh" for up to 10 minutes if it means the bots are effectively rendered useless. This is a common strategy in IT system security.

If I had a script that had to run at a variable time between 8am and 8:10am, I'd merely code it to try continuously until it went through. This would be worse on humans, since the extra requests could slow the system down (this is Disney IT, remember?). Anything you do to slow down bots is like playing whack a mole. Because they have an economic or business reason, the people running the bots will just modify them to get around whatever you put in place.

 

[GoingSince1990]

Something like a $100 fee for every time a reservation is modified (possibly with one modification allowed for free) would be easy to understand and implement, would have very little impact on people who genuinely have a change of plans, but would be quite costly to anyone walking a reservation for weeks on end.

 

[Cfabar1]

Couldn’t they just not allow modify/changes until 10 months? (or have a 48hr waiting period until 10 months)
Or would that just allow them to walk if they have 1000’s of points?

I really hope they wouldn't do this.... Plans change, and going back to the old days, one of the advantages of DVC over other timeshares was Flexibility...

 

[pzw90]

Remove the reservation system all together. Show up when you want to stay, and fight others who also show up. Thunder dome rules. Someone already in the room you want? Challenge them for it, they get the advantage to use any item within the room in the fight (helps cut down on split stays and housekeeping). Points are deducted upon checkout

 

[crvetter]

Something like a $100 fee for every time a reservation is modified (possibly with one modification allowed for free) would be easy to understand and implement, would have very little impact on people who genuinely have a change of plans, but would be quite costly to anyone walking a reservation for weeks on end.

Would I have to pay a modification fee if I change room type, view, resort, etc? Because right now that shouldn’t have a fee attached because that’s basically a cancel/rebook and not walking.

I could see this confusing if implemented because of the above. Though perhaps education through the booking system would help (a countdown until a fee hits, etc).

I’d be concerned about setting a precedence in creating a new revenue stream to DVC. Not sure who would benefit from these fees. I’d guess the management company not the associations.

 

[BeachClub2014]

Would I have to pay a modification fee if I change room type, view, resort, etc? Because right now that shouldn’t have a fee attached because that’s basically a cancel/rebook and not walking.

I could see this confusing if implemented because of the above. Though perhaps education through the booking system would help (a countdown until a fee hits, etc).

I’d be concerned about setting a precedence in creating a new revenue stream to DVC. Not sure who would benefit from these fees. I’d guess the management company not the associations.

I floated this concept upstream in the thread, and my focus on changes was intended to reduce the walking of reservations. In that light, charging a fee on "excessive" modifications (date) isn't complicated for an owner to understand or track.

All the other modifications that folks keep "what about'ing" have no impact on reservation walking.

 

[crvetter]

I floated this concept upstream in the thread, and my focus on changes was intended to reduce the walking of reservations. In that light, charging a fee on "excessive" modifications (date) isn't complicated for an owner to understand or track.

All the other modifications that folks keep "what about'ing" have no impact on reservation walking.

Definitely not what abouting. Was a serious question because some modifications aren’t at all walking and never could be construed as such. So I was curious if those would be exempt?

Also the comment I was replying to was 1 modification then fees. Which isn’t excessive and be problematic if there wasn’t exemptions for room category/resort changes.

Also I’m hesitant to stand behind something that creates a revenue stream for Disney through an entity of theirs. Where would the fees stop? When is it no longer stopping walking and just the story they are spinning. When their fee opens a new loop hole and they close that with another fee?

I only point on the other side of the conversation because Disney does actively monitor these discussions and uses them as a test bed for these changes.

 

[BeachClub2014]

Definitely not what abouting. Was a serious question because some modifications aren’t at all walking and never could be construed as such. So I was curious if those would be exempt?

Also the comment I was replying to was 1 modification then fees. Which isn’t excessive and be problematic if there wasn’t exemptions for room category/resort changes.

Also I’m hesitant to stand behind something that creates a revenue stream for Disney through an entity of theirs. Where would the fees stop? When is it no longer stopping walking and just the story they are spinning. When their fee opens a new loop hole and they close that with another fee?

I only point on the other side of the conversation because Disney does actively monitor these discussions and uses them as a test bed for these changes.

Totally understand and wasn't trying to be negative towards your post. I offer apologies if I came across that way.

"What about'ing" concepts is a time honored tradition here on the DIS and not a negative. Although, there are times when it gets a little out there. I hope DVC does spend time on these boards from time to time. If they truly do, they may get some good feedback.

 

[Genie+]

This is why I’m proposing changes to the booking system go specifically to check-in day booked at 11 months. Other than walking advantage, whatever reason someone needs to keep changing their checkin same exact room category… why should they be different and not have to enter the booking system at 11 months again like normal?

The only harm of taking away the walking advantage is taking away the walking advantage. Go ahead, make changes! Just like if you needed to change from Premium to Standard View… you would NOT get any walking advantage. Why does the same booking category need to keep the walking advantage?

 

[Sandisw]

I haven't suggested any changes that would result in a cancellation.


They do this now. You've previously said that you've made multiple spec reservations to lock in a room until your plans solidify. I've done so, too. That's an advantage of having a lot of points.


I am not opposed to this, either.


I still don't understand this concept of priority when everyone has the same opportunity to reserve a room under the rules, as you've often reminded us when discussing walking. Adding a fee for excessive modifications make zero change to the the booking rules and doesn't give anyone priority over anyoneone else.

If someone wants to make a change but has used go their free modifications, then they’d need to cancel first if they don’t want or can’t afford the fee.

Adding a fee for no good reason is a penalty to owners and not one that will be well received because it takes away the flexibility of DVC in a big way.

That is different than saying the booking rules are fair because we all can walk or not…fees require someone to have the funds to afford it and that makes it’s different.

Can DVC add a fee for changes? Sure…but will that be seen as a good thing to owners? I doubt it as we have already seen people who think creating the MMB program is a money grab.

Plus, the fee doesn’t stop walking. It might mean people walk for fewer dates, but it’s there regardless which is the entire reason for a potential change.

And, yes, I spec reserve for myself for flexibility. But, I’d be doing it even more if I had to count how many times I wanted to modify a reservation.

The best option, IMO, if they want to do something is to begin to use the rule already available to them and this way, it only impacts hard to get rooms which are only walked because demand outweighs supply.

 

[Sandisw]

Something like a $100 fee for every time a reservation is modified (possibly with one modification allowed for free) would be easy to understand and implement, would have very little impact on people who genuinely have a change of plans, but would be quite costly to anyone walking a reservation for weeks on end.

It would impact a lot more than you think and one of the best things about DVC is the ability to be able to use it with flexibility.

Just put yourself in the shoes of someone who doesn’t really even know about walking.

DVC has to now say we are putting in new rules and a few for modifications and changes to make it better for you as an owner to book.

My guess is they’d get more complaints even from those who may book at 11 months and never touch it.

 

[BeachClub2014]

If someone wants to make a change but has used go their free modifications, then they’d need to cancel first if they don’t want or can’t afford the fee.

Theoretically, that is true. It's also dependent on how many "free" modifications you get per reservation, right? I'm willing to bet that the average reservation never gets modified, or maybe only once. I doubt it would be as extreme as you seem to suggest here.

Adding a fee for no good reason is a penalty to owners and not one that will be well received because it takes away the flexibility of DVC in a big way.

There is a very good reason to do so: reduce the walking of reservations. It is not a penalty for owners at all. None of the booking rules would be changed. Everyone has the same opportunity to make a reservation. If you choose to modify a reservation excessively, then paying a fee may become required for the number beyond the freebies. It doesn't take any of the flexibility away. The fee just creates a disincentive for walking, which is the point.

Can DVC add a fee for changes? Sure…but will that be seen as a good thing to owners? I doubt it as we have already seen people who think creating the MMB program is a money grab.

If it reduces the volume and length of walking, I think many owners would embrace the idea.

Plus, the fee doesn’t stop walking. It might mean people walk for fewer dates, but it’s there regardless which is the entire reason for a potential change.

I don't think I ever suggested that it would stop walking. I think I said it would be a disincentive to do so but would still allow people to do so if they choose.

And, yes, I spec reserve for myself for flexibility. But, I’d be doing it even more if I had to count how many times I wanted to modify a reservation.

I spec reserve as well. Doing so has nothing to do with walking unless someone routinely walks their spec reservation.

The best option, IMO, if they want to do something is to begin to use the rule already available to them and this way, it only impacts hard to get rooms which are only walked because demand outweighs supply.

What rule are you referring to? Not being snarky, I must have missed the rule that you are referencing?

 

[Chili327]

I really hope they wouldn't do this.... Plans change, and going back to the old days, one of the advantages of DVC over other timeshares was Flexibility...

Do you make that many changes in the 1st month?
Maybe they allow 1 change for that first month?
I’m just trying to understand how it could work simply & not make it a headache for people.

 

[Lorana]

Widespread leaves a lot of latitude for us to interpret and guess what the Board meant. It's a big enough issue for many owners to have risen to the Board with a commitment (of sorts) to address it in some way.

My guess, given that Disney has the data, that owners walking reservations do not happen frequently, but that commercial renters taking rooms is the real issue.

I personally think most of what people ascribe to "walkers being the problem" are actually commerical renters grabbing the rooms with bots and reselling them on the resale market. I am with those that think if Disney were to crack down on commercial renters, most of the issues we see would be solved.

(Excepting certain key / popular times of years, which would still be hard to grab at 11 months)

Many of the walking restrictions that are being suggested would impact owners, but have minimal effect on large commercial renters. There's one commercial reseller (that we cannot talk about directly) that is clearly grabbing one day at a time in certain high value rooms, like AKV Jambo house. But also those resellers have huge amounts of points. It's no biggie for them, especially utilizing bots, to switch to grabbing 1 room at a time at 11 months and then waiting to combine them when they have renters. It's a huge issue for us owners, however.

I would prefer Disney first tackle the issue of mega-renters / commercial renters, and then we can see if there is still a need to fix walking.

 

[BeachClub2014]

My guess, given that Disney has the data, that owners walking reservations do not happen frequently, but that commercial renters taking rooms is the real issue.

I personally think most of what people ascribe to "walkers being the problem" are actually commerical renters grabbing the rooms with bots and reselling them on the resale market. I am with those that think if Disney were to crack down on commercial renters, most of the issues we see would be solved.

(Excepting certain key / popular times of years, which would still be hard to grab at 11 months)

Many of the walking restrictions that are being suggested would impact owners, but have minimal effect on large commercial renters. There's one commercial reseller (that we cannot talk about directly) that is clearly grabbing one day at a time in certain high value rooms, like AKV Jambo house. But also those resellers have huge amounts of points. It's no biggie for them, especially utilizing bots, to switch to grabbing 1 room at a time at 11 months and then waiting to combine them when they have renters. It's a huge issue for us owners, however.

I would prefer Disney first tackle the issue of mega-renters / commercial renters, and then we can see if there is still a need to fix walking.

I agree that commercial renting of reservations is a problem that DVC needs to address.

I also believe that walking reservations is a problem that DVC needs to address.

Are the two connected? Maybe. Probably. Likely. But I also believe the walking of reservations is prevalent beyond just the commercial renters.

 

[Sandisw]

Theoretically, that is true. It's also dependent on how many "free" modifications you get per reservation, right? I'm willing to bet that the average reservation never gets modified, or maybe only once. I doubt it would be as extreme as you seem to suggest here.


There is a very good reason to do so: reduce the walking of reservations. It is not a penalty for owners at all. None of the booking rules would be changed. Everyone has the same opportunity to make a reservation. If you choose to modify a reservation excessively, then paying a fee may become required for the number beyond the freebies. It doesn't take any of the flexibility away. The fee just creates a disincentive for walking, which is the point.


If it reduces the volume and length of walking, I think many owners would embrace the idea.


I don't think I ever suggested that it would stop walking. I think I said it would be a disincentive to do so but would still allow people to do so if they choose.


I spec reserve as well. Doing so has nothing to do with walking unless someone routinely walks their spec reservation.


What rule are you referring to? Not being snarky, I must have missed the rule that you are referencing?

The special seasons list…they can implement that at any time they want and can make it specific to rooms or resorts with high demand, especially for certain times a year

Again, I think you are overestimating the number of owners out there who even know about walking…let alone will want to see a penalty added

Anyone changing home resort at 7 months… which everyone who owns SAP does…is modifying their trips…

Just don’t understand how adding a fee when there isn’t one now isn’t a penalty…it is and so is limiting modifications.

Obviously there are some owners who want penalties in place to stop or curb walking, and that is fine, but they remain changes that not everyone is going to see as positive.

Remember, the DIS is a very small set of owners so those here are much knowledgeable and in tune to things that happen.

But don’t you at least agree that walking isn’t a problem for all resorts and all room types?

ETA: Just to add,, the board did make a statement to acknowledge it’s existence but also statements that they want to be careful not to end up with consequences like walking which was created after the last change.

 

[lowlight]

Am I underthinking this and how simple the solution can be? I’ve never made changes to a booking that would resemble walking in a pattern recognition. I’ve added days before, added days after, split stayed, but never dropped days off the beginning and added to the end in a manner that my final booking was a completely different date than my initial booking.

Step 1- define walking
Step 2- list penalty for walking
Step 3- use simple computer analytics to ferret out offenders, ask them what they thought they were doing, and cancel their reservations
Step 4- walking is dead

Nothing needs to be changed, no fees added, you are defining the rules of first come first serve booking and telling members that violating this (like commercial renting) will result in canceled reservations. Walking should be as easy to discern as commercial renting to analytics.

“Oh I wasn’t walking, I changed my date for my AKL value from mid July to Jersey week sixteen times because of schedule changes”.

Are you really going to try and play games when the definition is intentionally ambiguous like commercial renting? Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

 

[BeachClub2014]

But don’t you at least agree that walking isn’t a problem for all resorts and all room types?

Lol, of course! If you'll at least agree that walking is a problem for many resorts and many room types at various times throughout the year.

Seriously though, do I think reservation walking is the biggest issue in the DVC landscape? Nope. But it is an issue that is easily fixed.

Now, don't even get me started on commercial renters!

 

[BeachClub2014]

Am I underthinking this and how simple the solution can be? I’ve never made changes to a booking that would resemble walking in a pattern recognition. I’ve added days before, added days after, split stayed, but never dropped days off the beginning and added to the end in a manner that my final booking was a completely different date than my initial booking.

Step 1- define walking
Step 2- list penalty for walking
Step 3- use simple computer analytics to ferret out offenders, ask them what they thought they were doing, and cancel their reservations
Step 4- walking is dead

Nothing needs to be changed, no fees added, you are defining the rules of first come first serve booking and telling members that violating this (like commercial renting) will result in canceled reservations. Walking should be as easy to discern as commercial renting to analytics.

“Oh I wasn’t walking, I changed my date for my AKL value from mid July to Jersey week sixteen times because of schedule changes”.

Are you really going to try and play games when the definition is intentionally ambiguous like commercial renting? Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Works for me!