Any Reformed FP- Uber Users Who Have Embraced FP+ ?

[erc]

Third trip...short SWW trip with legacy FP, first weekend of June 2013. I can go back and find my post, but by using the FP system at an optimal level, I know we did something like 15 attractions in the morning alone at the MK one day.

.
.
.

So we've definitely experienced a significant decrease in the number of attractions we do because of the FP+ limitations.

I'm curious. How many attractions would you have been able to do on your third trip if everyone in the park understood the FP system as well as you did?

 

[jade1]

Al the back and forth and back and forth and back and forth about FP+ (which I don't mind - when it gets repetitive or boring I just stop reading) seems to seriously boil down to this:

If you feel that FP+ has hurt how you tour, and taken something away from your experience, you don't like it (and you get upset that others won't acknowledge that you feel you've truly lost something).

If you feel that FP+ has either helped the way you tour or hasn't really changed anything, you like it (and you don't really understand all the griping and complaining, which simply doesn't resonate with you).

I may be biased, because I don't like FP+, but it seems to me that those who don't like FP+ are nevertheless willing to admit that it works for some people, and that it has some positives, and that some people like it.

But those who like FP+ seem generally unable to admit that there are valid reasons for people not to like it. They focus on the fact that it works for them, or that it's "spreading the wealth" for more guests or that "Disney is not going to change." They (generally) refuse to acknowledge that they are in a conversation with an actual person who is saying, "This system has taken something I loved from me."

All the parsing of words and meanings is pretty silly when one side won't admit that the emotions and concerns (or "alleged" emotions and concerns) of the other side have any validity.

Thank you for putting it into better words than I did

I totally get what your saying LT (hope that's OK ) as you have always been clear, and many guests (maybe most even, who knows?) are in agreement.

Maybe attraction expansion will help bring you back, that is if it's enough to start increasing FP+ availability and QTY anyway, maybe not.

But your statement above is exactly how we were starting to feel with FP-, granted we travel peak and have no plans to hit parks until later in the day, but for us it was like they read my request for this over 10 years ago and implemented it.

That's exactly why I have documented in detail what I hoped would happen and indeed did happen-by far our best XMAS week at WDW ever.

 

[SmithSmith]

I honestly just don't understand the need to put any qualifier like alleged in at all. Why not just accept that others feel differently?

You can use whatever word you want, I'm just curious as to why you're using that word if you are saying you're not asking for proof/implying a lack of proof.

If I didn't have a qualifier then it'd just read "most FP+ flaws". Since I do not think they're flaws then I didn't want to call them that. So I added "alleged" because it was the first word that popped into my head.

I find it very telling that this is what you choose to quibble over instead of asking a constructive question like "most people find these to be flaws, why don't you?".

 

[Angel Ariel]

All it takes is for someone to say that they were happy with the FPs they received to trigger "interrogation" about how much time and planning it took to get those FP's. Remember the thread a few days ago about the "FP+ Success Story"?

I can only speak for myself, but I have honestly tried very hard to *not* do precisely that.

I can't control what anyone else posts - nor can anyone else on the board. The only way this back and forth will ever end is if individuals just get to a point and say "look, I don't care if someone else calls me a hater, that doesn't mean I'm going to turn around and call them an apologist". Or "just because someone interrogates my FP+ success story doesn't mean I'm going to turn around and question whether or not the negative experience others have had is really true or not"

I'm not perfect at this all the time, and I'm certainly not suggesting I am. But it is something I really am aiming for - an understanding on *all* sides that how each side feels *is* valid, regardless of whether I agree or not or whether it was my experience or not.

 

[Angel Ariel]

I find it very telling that this is what you choose to quibble over instead of asking a constructive question like "most people find these to be flaws, why don't you?".

Very telling in what way?

I'm happy to carry on a constructive conversation, but constructive conversation requires acknowledging the validity of others' opinions. I felt that how you came across was quite dismissive - that because you don't have a problem with them, they aren't *really* the problem others have.

That may not have been what you meant, which I believe is something I said in my first reply to you, but it is how you came across to me.

I would not say that "most people find these to be flaws," because from what I have gleaned from reports here I don't think that statement is true. You have also said that those things (allotment and tiering) don't negatively affect your touring - I accept that. I have no need to question it, because I honestly accept that you feel differently about it.

 

[jtowntoflorida]

I'm curious. How many attractions would you have been able to do on your third trip if everyone in the park understood the FP system as well as you did?

But isn't that irrelevant, because that's NOT what my experience was? I was answering the question about how much I could do before vs. now. I was providing my personal experience, offering evidence of why I don't like FP+ and why it doesn't work as well for me as the old system did.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Jtown.......thanks for relating your actual experiences, with real life details about what you actually accomplished. Like you, I'm willing to share any and all details regarding our actual visits/experiences, answer any questions asked of me, as only true, factual information is useful to people when trying to gauge how FP+ actually impacts people's WDW experiences.

It's hard to say your experience is consistent with another poster's, when other posters choose not to say what they actually, you know....DID! Cute exit though.......better than exposing yourself .

Like you, jtown, I agree that we do less actual rides under the FP+ system. However, we don't find it to be significantly less, at least not to the point that it has lowered the value equation for us. Between Christmas and New Years we were easily able to do 12 to 15 attractions a day (not including parades and fireworks) which is probably 80% of what we did under legacy FP. Yes, 20% less attractions, but under FP+ our touring style is more relaxed and efficient. Acceptable trade off for us, but I can understand that it may not be for others. Obviously your experience was different.

I realize that everyone's opinion of the results will differ though, as touring styles differ. But again, thanks for sharing your informed opinion based on actual experiences and facts, using well worded statements that don't mislead anybody, but help people understand what you did, how you toured, and what you actually accomplished!

Just curious. You mentioned a couple days where all you were able to do was use your 3 FP+. Just curious what touring style you employed on those days?

IMHO Epcot is tough in terms of counting attractions, because there are so few. Rope drop Soarin', FP+ TT, SE and MS.....well, we might have only gotten on 6 attractions (including Mexico and Amer Adv) that day, primarily because Epcot just doesn't have that many attractions. Sure, we could have ridden another 6-8 attractions, as Imagination, EO, Ellen, China/France/Canada movies and stuff like Innoventions didn't have long lines, but we prefer spending that time exploring World Showcase.

DHS as a standalone is also a tough one to get a high attraction count going, but with rope drop and FP+ it's not that hard for us to push it to 10, again skipping a lot of things.

 

[Laketravis]

It's hard to say your experience is consistent with another poster's, when other posters choose not to say what they actually, you know....DID! Cute exit though.......better than exposing yourself .

I believe I've provided much, much more detail in this thread and others than even you. But hey, I can take cheap shots all day long.

Gotta hand it to you - you are part of a small group that exhibits an acute sense of threat to goodwill and exceptional marketing and PR skills. I have no doubt you'd do very well at Disney should you ever decide that is something you'd like to pursue.

And I mean that entirely as a compliment, not a criticism.

 

[erc]

But isn't that irrelevant, because that's NOT what my experience was?

It is irrelevant if you think you are on trial for something, but I was just curious what you thought of that hypothetical. Feel free to consult your attorney...

 

[SmithSmith]

Very telling in what way?

I'm happy to carry on a constructive conversation, but constructive conversation requires acknowledging the validity of others' opinions. I felt that how you came across was quite dismissive - that because you don't have a problem with them, they aren't *really* the problem others have.

That may not have been what you meant, which I believe is something I said in my first reply to you, but it is how you came across to me.

I would not say that "most people find these to be flaws," because from what I have gleaned from reports here I don't think that statement is true. You have also said that those things (allotment and tiering) don't negatively affect your touring - I accept that. I have no need to question it, because I honestly accept that you feel differently about it.

If you want to insist that I was being dismissive then so be it. I honestly don't know what you want from me. I've given all these responses and yet they seem to be unsatisfactory. I won't be discussing this further.


Second, alleged also means "declared but unproven". I chose that word because in the matter of allotment and tiering, they're not FP+ flaws but capacity flaws. Therefore, not proven to be FP+ issues.

I'm not asking anyone to prove anything.

"I was just giving you my reasons why I have not offered up any possible solutions, nothing more."

Switzerland, if you really have a problem with my word choice then I'll change it to anything you deem appropriate. What do you suggest?

If I didn't have a qualifier then it'd just read "most FP+ flaws". Since I do not think they're flaws then I didn't want to call them that. So I added "alleged" because it was the first word that popped into my head.

 

[wisblue]

And that's how civil, amicable discussions can ensue. I try not to take any of the rebuttals and sarcasm personally because I tend to respond to that in an equal manner, but I have to admit that I am puzzled by some who are compelled to join those discussions and contribute nothing but an absolute refusal to consider that WDW could make a change or two that would benefit a lot of people and improve the overall experience and value received. Not once have I seen a thought-out potentially advantageous change they think WDW could make come from that camp. Instead, they begin their rationalization with an example or two of how their experience was different and based on that continually and exclusively promote the concept that everyone must adapt and change to the way it is, otherwise it's your fault because your touring method is inefficient or you should get up earlier or stay in the parks longer or lower your expectations or simply be content with what you get.

The biggest difference is that some of us criticize systems and process, while others criticize the people who criticize those systems and process.

I know that you are not including me in that “camp” because I have often participated in discussions about how FP+ could be improved and have offered some suggestions of my own. Things like allowing FP+ reservations to be made in more than one park and allowing guests to get more FPs after they have used their first 3 (something they have actually done).

I also know that someone who values civil and amicable discussions would never think that someone is personally attacking him just because that person disagrees that one of his suggested improvements would really be feasible. I am not offended at being told that I am someone who can only see one point of view and that I am a Disney apologist who thinks that the Disney company can do no wrong and that the FP+ system is perfect. I understand that that type of playful banter is a necessary part of a civil and amicable discussion.

But, because several of the posts on this thread are suggesting that the debate over FP+ has turned into a case of a persecuted few being attacked by a vicious gang of Disney apologists, I thought it would help for me to repeat why I participate on this board and when I choose to speak out.

My starting point is that the purpose of this board is to help people plan their trips to WDW. That is why it is titled “Theme Park Attractions and Strategy” and is one of the “Disney Trip Planning Forums”. I really don’t think the purpose of the board is to discuss how FP+ or WDW could be improved, how it compares to Universal Studios, and what the future plans of the Walt Disney Company might be. I don’t see how any of that helps people plan trips that are planned for the near future. If I were moderating the board I would be moving those discussions somewhere else, like a Community Board. Discussions like this are fine for people who want to participate in them (which I do sometimes). But, I don't think that it is appropriate to use those subjects to sidetrack threads that are started to discuss something completely different, like what types of FPs can someone get in the days or week before a trip.

I fully understand that there are reasons for people to like and dislike FP+, and I do my best to respect those opinions. I really don’t care if someone strongly dislikes FP+, or if it makes him or her feel better to beat on that point several times a day. I am not going to try to change anyone’s mind about those feelings.

But, where I do tend to step in and express myself is when those opinions are accompanied by statements that I believe are factually inaccurate, or at least questionable. It bothers me that some of these very general and overbroad statements serve no purpose other than to create anxiety for people planning their trips because they think these statements are literally true at all times.

So, when I respond to statements like:

- “Unless sleeping late while still being able to walk onto 3 things when you get to a park is important to you, embracing FP+ is hard".

- “If you are OK with 3 attractions per day and having to wait in long lines for everything else, then you'll probably see value in FP+", and

- “You can’t get anything good unless you book FP+ reservations at midnight 60 days out”

I am not challenging the opinions or experiences of the poster. If I cite a personal experience in response, I do it for the benefit of people who are planning their trips to help them to see that their experience does not have to be so negative. By seeing different examples, they can decide for themselves how to approach their trips based on what they want to do.

I hope this helps clarify where I am coming from. If it doesn't, I don't know what else I can say.

 

[Angel Ariel]

If you want to insist that I was being dismissive then so be it. I honestly don't know what you want from me. I've given all these responses and yet they seem to be unsatisfactory. I won't be discussing this further.

I'm not insisting that *you are* being dismissive, I said that was how your *first post* came across. And BOTH times I said that, I *also* said "that may not have been your intent, it is just how it came across to me."

You responded telling me you weren't asking anyone to prove anything.

I responded with *why* it came across to me as though you were asking for proof.

That seems to be a natural flow of a conversation when there is apparent miscommunication happening.

In response I get told that I'm quibbling over word choice and not attempting to have a constructive conversation.

You didn't mean for the statement to come across as dismissive. OK. I said from the beginning I wasn't sure if that was your intent. I accept your response that it wasn't.

However, I have repeatedly acknowledged that you have valid reasons for liking FP+ - and yet nowhere in the quotes you quoted just now do you acknowledge that others have equally valid reasons for *not* liking it. That was all I was trying to get at since this conversation started. I honestly thought that point is something constructive.

 

[HollieS]

 

[Angel Ariel]

But, because several of the posts on this thread are suggesting that the debate over FP+ has turned into a case of a persecuted few being attacked by a vicious gang of Disney apologists, I thought it would help for me to repeat why I participate on this board and when I choose to speak out.

If my posts were any of the ones you speak about here, then I do apologize because I was not intending to have it come across as "a persecuted few.". I think it happens on *both* sides of the debate, both intentionally and sometimes not intentionally also.

The main point I was trying to convey was that I think there could be more understanding/acceptance (as demonstrated in your post) of the each other's point of view by all sides.

Again, I apologize if it came across otherwise.

 

[Laketravis]

Humor is said to be the best medicine.

Someone posted this in another thread, and if you have Netflix I would encourage you to watch it. Starting at about 10 minutes in and for about three minutes total, this guy pokes fun at many of the things discussed so passionately on these boards:

Mr. Universe

Enjoy.

.

 

[wisblue]

If my posts were any of the ones you speak about here, then I do apologize because I was not intending to have it come across as "a persecuted few.". I think it happens on *both* sides of the debate, both intentionally and sometimes not intentionally also.

The main point I was trying to convey was that I think there could be more understanding/acceptance (as demonstrated in your post) of the each other's point of view by all sides.

Again, I apologize if it came across otherwise.

No, your posts aren't the ones I was referring to.

I totally agree that both "sides" could be more understanding of the other at times, but I am amused that there are some who think they and those who agree with them are regally above the fray.

But, my bigger point is that there is a big difference between questioning the facts used to support an opinion and challenging the validity or accuracy of someone's opinion, feelings, or experiences. And that discussions about how FP+ or WDW in general could be improved do nothing to help people plan their trips.

 

[Angel Ariel]

No, your posts aren't the ones I was referring to.

OK, good . I only said that because thinking back on them, I could see how they could be taken that way, and I really wasn't going for that! Thanks

 

[Laketravis]

...discussions about how FP+ or WDW in general could be improved do nothing to help people plan their trips.

Those types of discussions constitute a large portion of the content of these boards. You might think those discussions have absolutely no potential to help someone plan their trip, but you also don't know what someone might pickup from those discussions that absolutely does help them plan their trip.

 

[wisblue]

Those types of discussions constitute a large portion of the content of these boards. You might think those discussions have absolutely no potential to help someone plan their trip, but you also don't know what someone might pickup from those discussions that absolutely does help them plan their trip.

Sorry, but I don't see it. And if I don't, I would bet that a lot of other people don't either.

I think a lot more visitors to the board (especially those who post rarely, if ever) are more interested in things like how FP+ works and how they can make best use of it than things like yield management, why Disney should change FP+ to make it more like Universal's Express Pass, how Disney is skillfully manipulating guests' behavior, and how a comment made by a Disney executive suggests that there won't be significant changes in the WDW parks for the foreseeable future.

But, like I said, if you want to discuss those things, I think it would be better to address them in separate threads, if not in a different forum completely. If the issue raised is what FPs are available a week or a few days out, I really don't see how the discussion is advanced by saying that Universal's Express Pass is better.

Similarly, I don't see how repeating "I hate FP+" over and over helps anyone plan a trip. But, I think citing specific examples of how someone used FP+ does help and shouldn't be interpreted as dismissing the opinions or experiences of someone who does not like FP+.

 

[DisneyKidds]

I believe I've provided much, much more detail in this thread and others than even you.

Sure, on just about everything but what is germane to the simple questions I have been asking you.

Patches O'Houlihan has taught you well!!

People talk about 'camps', and what they don't get about them. I'm in the like it 'camp', sure. I display my bias toward thinking the system is pretty good, because it is for us. In the past I have failed to recognize that glitches and other things legitimately cause people problems where my use of the system has truly been easy peasy. As much as I've been smart, I've also been lucky I guess. I admit all that. I've also recognized FP+ is not without several faults.

Despite that, I'm very transparent. There is nothing to figure out about me. I come here and tell you exactly where we went, what we did, how we did it, what strategy was employed, and how others could, with a high degree of success, accomplish the same if they wanted to. No agenda to get people to like FP+ or tour my way. Heck, I should be convincing people FP+ sucks so less people go and to sleep in so I get less crowded parks. But no, I just relate the truth, as we've experienced it. You....I frankly don't know what you are doing.

Listen, while sparring with you has been fun, I guess I really don't care if people like FP+. Means nothing to me, and I'm not trying to convince anyone. Nor should I care if some people, through poorly worded half truths that seem designed to mislead people, seem intent on convincing people it sucks. To each his own, I suppose. Just bugs me when people make what I consider to be false and misleading statements to serve some agenda or another. Gets stuck in my craw, but it's time to follow Elsa's wisdom and.........sing it with me!

Really only because this is clearly going nowhere and I don't think you will ever truthfully answer my simple questions. This has always been something of a waste of time, but it no longer meets my entertainment value quotient.