Any new family hotels?

[EUROPACL]

I've been on this board for over a year now so I'm not sure that I can be called a "New Fern". I've been visiting Disney World/Disneyland since I was 5 and I am now 29 years old. I have read a lot of articles/books/threads about Disney, but I do not claim to be an all knowing Disney expert.

I tend to disagree a lot with AV, YoHo, and Euro. Some of our conversations have been a little snarky, but I do not think poorly of them. They all seem to be intelligent people that know a lot about Disney.

You're not a Fern.

I have agreed with some of thier points. They have brought up several good issues and Disney can (of course) be a better company. I will not deny that Disney sometimes makes decisions for the bottom line that are not in the best interest of the consumer.

Kind of still missing the point...we want the old Disney back...will we get it? I doubt it.

However, (and I mean no offense) you guys focus almost entirely on the negative. I have seen post after post of nothing but criticism. I see your name and I know that you will have something negative to say. Honestly I don't think it matters what Disney does, in your minds it will be negative. I have seen several posts where you guys exaggerate the issue (Sometimes jokingly/ sometimes not) to make it sound worse. Some of you have accused several others on these boards as working for Disney, when sometimes I wonder if some of you work for Universal.

Gee if we worked for Universal you would think we would point out how great Universal is and does things so much better than Disney....pssst They don't Universal is in a worse place as far as the parks go than Disney is right now. NBC has even less intrest in putting money into the parks than Disney does.

Back to the topic;

Honestly I do not think that the value resorts are a bad deal.

Trying to talk over the Internet is hard sometimes as my real point does not come across clearly. The "Value Resorts" might be close to just above the same type of room found off site. (For a Family of 6 was really the issue at first...and I still think a 2-bedroom condo at the back gate is a better value) Some people see the "value" in staying on site...I still do it. Mine (and others) issue with the "value" resorts are that they just lowered the bar. Disney could have and has done better. Just Like DCA lowered the bar. MGM/AK opening half finshed lowered the bar. Hong Kong Disney lowered the bar. Disney Pictures have been lowering the bar for years turning out flop after flop and dumbed down picture one after another. Sure everyonce in a while we get a POTC. You've got to wonder how many Country Bear, Haunted Mansion, Bambi II movies people will sit through before that Disney name no longer brings them into the theater anymore.


Sorry if you don't think we are postive enough about Disney right now...but we don't see a lot to be postive about. Be honest with yourself do you really see Disney putting the capital investment back into the parks that they need right now? What do you think is going to happen once that DVC well has run dry and Hotels start needing to be updated? Is the direct to dvd of UnderDog II going to pay for that? Disney views the parks as a cash cow for Movies and TV not the other way around. Eisner tried several times to sell off the parks to pay for more bad movies,TV networks and Power Ranger Cartoons. Who exactly at Disney now would you say is going to ride to the rescue and save the parks from circling the drain?

 

[YoHo]

I'm positive about all the things at Disney that were made in the good times.

 

[MasterShake]

I'm positive about all the things at Disney that were made in the good times.

Ok, does that mean that nothing can be positive now?

 

[NEVERENOUGHWDW]

I love reading some of yours and Euro's posts because while they might appear to snarky to some, it shows you you two actually care about Disney and what they provide for service. The bolded part of your post is very truthful and packed with common sense, that some don't want to hear. When you look at a resort like AKL or WL, you can see the imagination that must have took place in order to design it, not so with the values. When I look at the values I imagine a bunch of bean counters sitting around a boardroom with Micheal Eisner trying to figure out how to pack more people into cheaper rooms, without spending big bucks to build it. The values aren't themed, they're decorated and take away the giant icons and few Disney decorations, and you have a chain motel that can be found anywhere. You can't say that about AKL or a few other Disney deluxe resorts. I wouldn't pay more than 45 to 50 dollars a night to stay in one. I got a quote from the CRO one time for $109.00 a night and I laughed at the ridiculous notion of it. I had a email offer to stay in the "Ritz Carlton/JW Marriott" property 3 miles down the road for $174. I would have felt like an idiot to pay 109 a night for Pop when the Ritz was only 65 dollars more a night and true 4 to 5 star resort.


I understand why some of you get heated over this and I appreciate it as a fellow Disney fan. The passion of some Disney fans are similar to Harley and die hard Corvette owners in some ways. They have a large base of fans that have a passion for the product, the product is a huge part of American culture, and the fans are critical of changes that don't benefit the product or the company that produces it. That's a good thing and if Disney is smart enough they will listen to it and take it in to consideration. Not everything is wine and roses at WDW and some directions the company takes worries me at times. Look no further than the Year of a Million dreams and the cheap looking banners that hang everywhere. It looks like it was done quickly and almost as a after thought. I appreciate Disney giving extra perks for their guests, but they should do this all the time without the cheap looking promotion. Families spend some big, major bucks to go to WDW and that can't be dismissed and they deserve things done correctly and not on the cheap. I want WDW and Disneyland to be around for generations to come and not be a shell of their former glory, but to be at the top of their game and unique. That's why I understand the snow globe and chicken strips references.

Although I don't agree with everything you said...very well stated. IMO the problem is Disney no longer pays attention to those of us that do spend the "big bucks", they are more interested in quantity opposed to quality.
IMO Walt wouldn't have wanted it this way......

 

[YoHo]

No, but,

Discussing line item by line item is useless. We're discussing corporate philosophy here. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. The fact that the inept manage to let some good sneak through doesn't really mean I should not be negative about the corporate philosophy that got us here right?
Additionally, each item on that list simply invites subjective critism.

The Value resorts don't meet the goals of the initial resort development for Walt Disney World. That's objective, that's a fact. From that, we can discuss why Disney set those goals, what those goals give the guest and what the Values give the guest.
All of that is true, yet you may still like the Value resorts. The fact that YOU like them means little.

 

[MasterShake]

Although I don't agree with everything you said...very well stated. IMO the problem is Disney no longer pays attention to those of us that do spend the "big bucks", they are more interested in quantity opposed to quality.
IMO Walt wouldn't have wanted it this way......

I might be wrong, but I think that Disney was/is meant for everyone.

 

[YoHo]

I'm not sure one could even say they're interested in Quantity. Unless you mean quantity of branded Disney experiences. certainly you don't mean quantity of Attractions at any one location. Your statement does work well for films.

And of course Disney is meant for everyone. I don't know too many people that just hate a quality experience and wish they had more half decent experiences.

 

[NEVERENOUGHWDW]

I might be wrong, but I think that Disney was/is meant for everyone.

True but IMO a very big mistake is when you forget about a group that yearly spends the most $$$. The masses are not going to continually add to Disney profit in the long run.
The group (i.e. masses) visit maybe once a year while the group I am speaking about visit many times a year, only stay at deluxe hotels and now have to seek out a fair/good meal due to all the promotions such as the DDP & free dining which I believe to be nonsense and is starting to take Disney down a very slippery slope.

 

[YoHo]

Honestly, I'd say the yearly big spenders aren't the people Disney's forgetting...
Well, they are, but not to the extent that they're forgetting the every 5 years style vacationer.

The Values afterall, didn't attract new guests who were staying offsite. It convinced already exisiting guests who were staying at a more expensive hotel to move to a cheaper one and come more often.
Similarly, DVC didn't attract new business, it simply locked in the people already going all the time.
The family that is not wealthy, that has to scrimp and save to afford a Walt Disney World trip is being done a diservice.

 

[NEVERENOUGHWDW]

Honestly, I'd say the yearly big spenders aren't the people Disney's forgetting...
Well, they are, but not to the extent that they're forgetting the every 5 years style vacationer.

The Values afterall, didn't attract new guests who were staying offsite. It convinced already exisiting guests who were staying at a more expensive hotel to move to a cheaper one and come more often.
Similarly, DVC didn't attract new business, it simply locked in the people already going all the time.
The family that is not wealthy, that has to scrimp and save to afford a Walt Disney World trip is being done a diservice.

I couldn't disagree more! The values have drawn people from all the surrounding motels & low end hotels to stay onsite.
The every 5 year guests are who they are catering to....trying to get them to Disney more often. The winners are the family that does save for a Disney trip......DDP, free dining who do you think that was created for?

 

[Kaler131]

"When I stay at a Disney value resort I feel like I have just stepped into a Disney Movie Fantasyland!

When we pull up to All Stars and I see those giant icons I get the biggest smile on my face. I know I am at Disney! "
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I completly agree with you! I have stayed at some of the luxury resorts at WDW -but we continue to prefer the values for the same reason....we LOVE the totally "Disney" atmosphere. That's why we go to Disney in the first place isin't it?

 

[raidermatt]

The winners are the family that does save for a Disney trip......DDP, free dining who do you think that was created for?

Free dining was created for Disney so they could fill beds in a slow period. Nothing wrong with that, but families saving for a Disney trip ususally schedule around school.

The dining plan in general was created to get people who are already going to spend more while they are there.

 

[YoHo]

I couldn't disagree more! The values have drawn people from all the surrounding motels & low end hotels to stay onsite.
The every 5 year guests are who they are catering to....trying to get them to Disney more often. The winners are the family that does save for a Disney trip......DDP, free dining who do you think that was created for?

It was created so the every 3 months crowd would stop being cheapskates and eat at the sitdowns.

Also, You're wrong about where the values pull from. grumblings from the Dark Tower have been upset about it for some time.

Disney used to Cater to the big family vacationer. People who come every 5 years are only going to show up if you create something big and new. Something that makes them willing to get up out of the barcalounger and put off the tirp to the grand canyon.

The regulars are a completely different animal. They are there all the time, so the big changes really don't give you bang for the buck. What the regulars want is incremental changes. New bands and streetmosphere. New Pins, small incremental changes that the 5 years crowd won't even notice hasn't changed.
Disney changed their focus from the 5 year guest to the regular a couple years ago. Disney semi-unintentionally created this class of guess via DVC, the Values and APs.

HOWEVER, I think it's fair to say that DIsney's been pretty bad to both groups. The large additions have been few and far between and the incremental have been either non-existent or weak.

 

[minnie61650]

...
Yes, he helped, and helped a lot. But the driving force of the company was the creative vision, not the financial analysis. Roy helped find ways to make Walt's vision work, but he didn't dictate the vision.

I totally agree that it was Walt's vision and his brother Roy helped with the
financial analysis.

Although Roy stepped in after his brother Walt's death to make sure that WDW was built , he delayed the plans for Asian resort and made other cut backs.

I was also very disappointed in the stark concrete look of Tomorrowland when it first opened.
The presentation of the DL version of IASW was much more pleasing to the eyes then hiding the ride in a plain looking building.
Disneyland's versions were so much better.


I think there were a few "bean counters" when WDW first opened.

JMHO

 

[YoHo]

Yeah, Walt called them Sharp Pencil guys and he made fun of them.

 

[MasterShake]

Although I don't agree with everything you said...very well stated. IMO the problem is Disney no longer pays attention to those of us that do spend the "big bucks", they are more interested in quantity opposed to quality.
IMO Walt wouldn't have wanted it this way......

I don't want to get the wrong impression here, but what do you mean by quantity over quality. It just occurred to me that you’re referring to people and not products. Do you feel that more money makes you a more "quality" person?

I couldn't disagree more! The values have drawn people from all the surrounding motels & low end hotels to stay onsite.
The every 5 year guests are who they are catering to....trying to get them to Disney more often. The winners are the family that does save for a Disney trip......DDP, free dining who do you think that was created for?

I guess I don't understand what you’re trying to say. How is Disney giving you the impression that they do not care for their wealthier patrons?

 

[rantnnravin]

the problem with the shaving away at quality is this:
the five-year vacationer is expecting the "Disney" they've heard about. The reputation, the icon. What the bean counters have done by offering less-for-more is that the 5-year visitor will NOT see anything great or special or worth coming back for.
They'll scrimp and save and just be able to afford the room with the hockey-stick view. They don't do research and they don't get the deals and codes that we know to look and ask for. They type their dates into cost-generator on the website and get offered water aprks and more for february, they're automatically offered 10-day hoppers for an 8-day trip and d trip insurance, they overpay for airfare and think, "okay that's what it costs".
But they'll be expecting the monorail and get the MTA. They'll be expecting superior service and attention and get a former DMV employee. They expect to ride big rideas and have fun and they get long lines, shuttered attractions, hal-finished parks, and dinoland carnival rip-off games. They won't understand why those of use who love Disney keep going back. And they won't go back because Disney hasn't offered them anything they can't get at home.
So it becomes a vicious cycle. Those of us who remember Disney's glory days and love Disney and keep going back are going to die eventually. Who will remain to go 3-times a year to the Big-Wheel Inn?
Those who are perceived as "hating" Disney are really the ones who love it the most and don't want to see it wilt and die from bean-counter neglect.

 

[iamalittlegoofy]

I've been on this board for over a year now so I'm not sure that I can be called a "New Fern". I've been visiting Disney World/Disneyland since I was 5 and I am now 29 years old. I have read a lot of articles/books/threads about Disney, but I do not claim to be an all knowing Disney expert.

I tend to disagree a lot with AV, YoHo, and Euro. Some of our conversations have been a little snarky, but I do not think poorly of them. They all seem to be intelligent people that know a lot about Disney.

I have agreed with some of thier points. They have brought up several good issues and Disney can (of course) be a better company. I will not deny that Disney sometimes makes decisions for the bottom line that are not in the best interest of the consumer.

However, (and I mean no offense) you guys focus almost entirely on the negative. I have seen post after post of nothing but criticism. I see your name and I know that you will have something negative to say. Honestly I don't think it matters what Disney does, in your minds it will be negative. I have seen several posts where you guys exaggerate the issue (Sometimes jokingly/ sometimes not) to make it sound worse. Some of you have accused several others on these boards as working for Disney, when sometimes I wonder if some of you work for Universal.



Just because someone disagrees with your point of view, doesn't mean that they aren't informed.

Back to the topic;

Honestly I do not think that the value resorts are a bad deal. I brought up a search on Hotels.com for Orlando area and the values are rated at 2.5 stars. On there the cheapest 2.5 star hotel was $40 a night (Oct) and some 2.5 star hotels were well over $100 (Oct) a night. Disney Value was running for about $82 a night (Oct). I selected 2 adults and 1 child occupancy for all of these hotels.

The amenities listed on the site were almost identical for all of the Hotels (probably a standard requirement for a similar rating). I didn't see a room size, but from the pictures they all seemed comparable in size. If you look at the range in prices I would say that Disney is probably slightly above average in price. If you averaged the prices it seems like it would come out in the high 60's to low 70's. Disney probably runs about $10-$20dollars more a night.

Now, onsite perks may not interest some, but they are something to consider when choosing a hotel. Disney Value has the benefit of location, free transportation (the bus can be crowded), and Extra Magic Hours (can also be crowded. Also, while it might not be everyone’s cup of tea, the theme-ing (large icons) can be fun for some people. If none of these perks interest you, you can save some money and stay off site. If are going to use one or more of these options then it may be worth it to stay at a value resort.

Ding, ding, ding! Give this man a prize. He gets it. Most people will not dispute a decline in the Disney resorts and parks. His post deals with thread topic. The overall decline is a product of the times. I seen a decline in society overall, that has made its way through the business, retail, and services world.

 

[rantnnravin]

but the "old Disney" never succumbed to the influence of "society overall"
that was the beauty of it. Why do you think they wouldn't allow men with facial/long hair to work onstage in the parks? They wanted a clean-cut wholesomeness DESPITE the beatnik/hippie movement.

same should go for hotels:
"everyone else" is actually offering a better value than Disney. If Disney expects people to pay more, they need to offer the superior Disney quality that those of us who remember the old Disney have become accustomed to. What does the Big-Wheel Inn offer that i can't get a mile down the road?
Superior transportation? - no that's not it . Superior service? - nope. A quiet room to sleep in?- no dice either. (can you say industrial strength toilets, anyone?)

just because "everyone else is doing it" doesn't mean you should.

 

[shanomi4]

Ok, so you think I am a troll. Great! Been called far worse by people that actually mean something to me. Sorry that I do not have hours upon hours to do research and then ramble on and on about it. But I do have views. I have some knowledge as well as my personal experience. If it is easier for you to disregard my opinions because they aren’t parallel with yours, so be it. No skin off my back. But don’t expect me to run and hind nor expect to reel me into your side of the discussion. Here is what I know

Disneyland opened in 1955. with the help of Stanford Research Institute. Obviously this just wasn’t some man cashing in his life savings and going on a whim! In fact his dream started about a decade before it opened. Because of the war his ideas were stalled. Now lets look at 1955.…..even at 1971 (Walt Disney world opening). I think we can all agree that the foundation for most and if not all of Walt’s projects was entertainment. For those who say “what competition” I was speaking about entertainment. Back then there was not a lot of entertainment options. Today there is a ton. We have 100’s of channels on TV to choose from. We have play stations, game boys, ipods, DVDs CD’s personal computers, the internet and I could go on and on. All of which is entertainment. There is so much more now then there was back in the early days (1955 and even 1971) Traveling was for the rich. Cruises were for the super wealthy. People did not get the option to go to the Caribbean. Today even the poor have access to much of the entertainment venues mentioned above. If you are middle class, chance are you have been to the Caribbean. You have a computer with internet. We have Theme parks all over the country. Where I sit now there are 3 MAJOR theme parks. It is reasonable to say that back when Walt was building and designing there was not nearly as much entertainment options. It was far easier to wow folks. You add Universal, sea world, six flags and then all the other everyday garbage we get inundated with, it just isn’t as magical or as easy to WOW. That is NOT to say that they still can’t WOW us. It just takes a lot more imagination and money then it did back when Walt was around. If we truly want to be Wowed then it would take something completely new. Something outside of a theme park ride. Unfortunately I have to agree when Disney says the parks have matured. I would rather Disney do something outside the box. Figuratively and physically. Do I think they should abandon the parks? NO. Should they put more money into them? YES. Should they come up with new attractions? Definitely. But they should come up with something completely different unrelated to the parks. What could that be? The only man that I know who could definitely answer that would be uncle Walt.