Another WWYD

[jba2]

I'd definitely get involved. I can't believe all the kids who made it into honours English came from one class. Something's not right.

 

[bethy]

My theory - the kids in the one class that moved up are the Orchestra group.

 

[tasha99]

I am usually a stand back parent, but I would step in for this. If your daughter just didn't get in, that would be one thing. All kids getting in were in one teacher's class? Something foul is going on.

 

[zoemurr]

I guess so!! Valedictorian from elementary! Wow!

There are many days when I'm glad our school doesn't rank or have a Val/Sal..

Does your DD know she is expected to graduate in the top 2? That's a lot of pressure for a 7th grader. My DD skipped a grade and in 3rd (when she was the youngest in the district by a year) she and one other girl were the only ones to get a perfect score on the OLSAT. (An IQ test to measure giftedness.) So, using this standard (which I don't) she is the smartest in the district. She had all wonderful grades until..

She began to push herself like crazy in HS. She skips lunch and takes an extra language, band and chorus. She has joined tons of clubs and doesn't have a spare minute. This is how she wants it. But, her grades have slipped a bit. (By that I mean low 90s average instead of high 90s.) She is no longer at the very top, because often kids who don't take classes that are as challenging can get perfect grades and surpass the ones that are 1-2 years ahead academically.

All that being said, yes, push for the better class. My DS (not as "book" smart as his sister) didn't make the challenge program by a point or two. I talked to his teacher who also thought he should be in there and worked on this on his behalf. Took a bit but it worked out. We have another friend whose DD was put in standard math because she tanked some end of the year test. Teacher and parent thought she should be put in a class two levels higher. She was. That was 3 years ago and she is still doing great. Most teachers/administrators will certainly listen (in our experience) and help. Good luck!

 

[nemajovc]

Our local district has had issues with (euphemism ) "illegal coaching" which got various admins and teachers in trouble- sounds a tiny bit like that.
I'd get together with other parents and find how such testing is done in nearby districts then present a united front (might help if one of the parents has influence with school board or litigation)

 

[sk!mom]

As a teacher and a parent, my first thought is, what the heck kind of school district limits the number of advanced students to a number? In my experience, most districts want all students capable of advanced work in advanced classes.

Yes, I would intervene. All students are owed the best education possible and we as parents sometimes have to advocate and even demand it. I would start out nicely requesting that she be placed based on her academic record. My requests would go higher and become stronger if nice requests didn't get results.

 

[Disneychick75]

The first question to ask administration is Why did all the students come from one class? There really can be no logical answer to that - the chances of all the students who did well coming from one class are astronomical. The administration has to look into why this occurred. Did that teacher coach them well, or "coach" them well (specifically tell her students how to beat the test). It could mean the students take the test again.

I agree that the teacher saying SHE didn't do a good enough job is not the way to go. I would definitely follow up on this.

Good luck.

Absolutely weird that these kids all came from one class. Look into it.

You can definitely fight it, but the scores on tests are pretty telling. Even if she's in regular 9th grade English she still CAN be an English major and do what she wants with that. This is not an end all be all type of deal. I had friends who were in ALL AP classes throughout high school that did not do well in college.

Again, go with your gut. You know your daughter the most and the situation at hand. Good luck OP!

Scores are not telling if a teacher unethically taught from the test. After almost 40 years working in schools, I can say that teachers cheating to make themselves look better for whatever reason, does happen.

You're right that kids who are average high school,students excel in college. That have had to learn study skills that kids who sailed through high school never had to learn.

 

[StitchesGr8Fan]

Kind of off topic, but what does you daughter want to do with an English degree? Teach?

 

[NewRVLady]

I think I was unclear about that. What I meant is that is the presumption by the teachers within the district who've watched these kids grow up. DD and one other girl have always been sort of in a class by themselves academically. There is nothing "official".



Back to the WWYD, Mrs S teaches the advanced class. Do we approach her?

I think it's still an odd assessment- to know which 7 th graders will be the top of the high school class!
All our high schools- Public and the 2 Catholic feed from several schools each

 

[momz]

Okay, so DD13 did not test well enough to get into Advanced English for 8th grade. There are about 200 kids & only 25 get in. She's really disappointed and we're going to try to push to see if there's anything we can do. Under normal circumstances, we'd just say that's how life goes, but there are a couple extenuating circumstances.

1) The 7th graders are not split up academically. They are grouped based on who's in band, who's in orchestra, and who's in choir. So, all the 7th grade
English classes have a "mix" of students. There are 3 7th grade English teachers (Mrs A, Mrs B, and Mrs F), and all 25 kids who tested high enough to make the advanced class for next year came from Mrs A's classes. So, it already seems odd that not 1 kid from any of Mrs B's or Mrs F's classes made it in. Clearly, Mrs A has "coached" her kids on how to take the test which DD13 has said was very subjective in nature.

2) For several years, the entire district has pretty well felt the valedictorian of the class of 2019 would come down to 1 of 2 kids, DD13 being 1 of those 2. She's 1 of 5 kids of about 60 from her elementary school to score all A's K-6, and the only 1 of ~200 district wide to score advanced on all sections of the standardized tests each of the years it was administered. Bottom line, as one of the best students in the school already, she is especially good come test time, typically anyway. In short, she really has been that mythical DIS kid who has the perfect academic record

3) English is DD13's strongest subject; she intends (at this point) to major in English in college. Mrs F - DD13's teacher - was livid when she found out DD13 didn't make advanced, and it was her prodding that led to the discovery that all 25 kids who did came exclusively from Mrs A's classes. She is now going to bat for DD13 and a handful of her other students who she considers obvious choices for the 8th grade advanced class. To her knowledge, having all the kids come from ONE teacher is not something that's happened previously. The teacher who will actually teach advanced English is also somewhat puzzled and is actually fond of DD13 and had pretty much planned to have her in her class next year (DW works for the district and knows her).


So, the question is, how much do we get involved here? Do we sit back and let Mrs F fight this battle, or do we step in? Or, do we just say, "that's life, and life's not fair" and forget about it? As we understand it, the kids who do not participate in 8th grade Advanced English are very rarely admitted to the Advanced HS English classes, and for someone who plans to be an English major, that would obviously be a real burr under DD's saddle.


Thoughts?

1. scheduling classes around other class obligations is what is done here as well, and I would expect is the most common way of scheduling. What group of kids were in the class that did well on the test? Like a previous poster stated...the orchestra kids? Maybe the robotics club?

2. How do you know everybody's scores throughout elementary and on the standardized tests? This bothers me to think that some random parent would know my child's grades. Also, you say that she was leading the class in her elementary school. Does the middle school bring in students from several elementary schools? That's how it is here. So doing well at one school does not necessarily equate to being the top of the class over the entire district.

3. It's above and beyond for her teacher to do this.

Now, you said the class size is limited to 25, I expect that is because there is only one teacher for this class. I am wondering, how would you determine which kid who qualified to be in the class through testing should now be kicked out to allow for your little pumpkin to join (especially since she her test scores did not qualify her to be in the class).

Another thing to consider, once the invitations for the class go out, the students have to accept the offer. There may be some within that first 25 who don't wish to be in the class, or there could be someone move away. Thus opening up a spot for another child.

Still, I think it rather presumptuous to expect another child to be booted from the class because your DD had good grades in elementary school.

 

[momz]

I think it's still an odd assessment- to know which 7 th graders will be the top of the high school class!
All our high schools- Public and the 2 Catholic feed from several schools each

BINGO!!! Very odd indeed.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

IMO, I wouldn't hang your hat on your dd being valedictorian. High school is a completely different ball game than elementary and middle school. Some kids are late bloomers and really come into their own others have peaked early and drop to the middle of the pack.

Oh I know, that was more a reference to her current trajectory and how out of "whack" it would seem to almost everyone in the district for DD (and a couple other people) NOT to be in the "current" Advanced English class. She's in the Advanced math class & math is her weakest subject

 

[mjkacmom]

BINGO!!! Very odd indeed.

That is very odd - all of my girls had straight A's all through middle school, and all five of mine score advanced proficient on all standardized testing. Dd17 is in the top 10%, but it never occurred to me that she would be in the top 2 (although 2 of her friends are, and they've been friends since kindergarten).

OP, I'd find out how close she is to the cutoff. I do think it's strange that only one class made it in. All of the kids who qualified for algebra in 7th grade were from the same math class, but it was the high math class, so it makes more sense.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

In what way? What happened?

I have known some parents who "pushed" to get their kids in advanced classes despite teacher recommendations. In some cases it worked out, and in others it didn't. It sounds like she'll be fine, though, but I agree, a lot can happen.

There was a placement test which as I understand it was created by Mrs. S - the 8th grade Advanced English teacher. DD has the teacher recommendation, but scored outside the top 25 on the placement test.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Kind of off topic, but what does you daughter want to do with an English degree? Teach?

Teach & write.

 

[EMode]

I think it's still an odd assessment- to know which 7 th graders will be the top of the high school class!
All our high schools- Public and the 2 Catholic feed from several schools each

I don't think that its odd at all by the time a student reaches 7th grade. Of course that depends on how many schools you are talking about, here we have 2 middle schools and they each go to separate high schools so there really is a pretty good chance that the top rated students in 7th and 8th of those schools will still be the top rated students in their high school. The OP said there wasn't anything official but its not really hard to see who the exceptional students are when they are exceptional year after year.

I agree with the pp's that having all the students come from one class seems odd. I'm glad our school doesn't bother with placement tests, students are eligible for honor classes if they have maintained an average of (i don't know what it is offhand) the previous year and they are recommended by their teacher because they meet other criteria.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

1. scheduling classes around other class obligations is what is done here as well, and I would expect is the most common way of scheduling. What group of kids were in the class that did well on the test? Like a previous poster stated...the orchestra kids? Maybe the robotics club?

I believe it was mostly the band kids.

2. How do you know everybody's scores throughout elementary and on the standardized tests? This bothers me to think that some random parent would know my child's grades. Also, you say that she was leading the class in her elementary school. Does the middle school bring in students from several elementary schools? That's how it is here. So doing well at one school does not necessarily equate to being the top of the class over the entire district.

DW is a clerk for the district. One of her jobs is to compile the test scores. She doesn't know all the names of all the top scorers from the other elementary school (we have just 2 in our district), but she has inquired into the top scores. DD is consistently top 10 in Math & Science, & #2 in language arts. Another girl is consistently #1 in language and is in a league of her own (that girl's mom is a 6th grade teacher and a really good one). DD is always a pretty big gap behind #1 and then there is another big gap before "all the rest".

Now, you said the class size is limited to 25, I expect that is because there is only one teacher for this class. I am wondering, how would you determine which kid who qualified to be in the class through testing should now be kicked out to allow for your little pumpkin to join (especially since she her test scores did not qualify her to be in the class).

There's no way anyone should have to be booted out once invited, regardless of how suspicious the scoring came to be. But, there is room in the classroom for additional kids. We don't know the exact #, but it's believed there are 8-10 "exceptional" students on the outside looking in.

Another thing to consider, once the invitations for the class go out, the students have to accept the offer. There may be some within that first 25 who don't wish to be in the class, or there could be someone move away. Thus opening up a spot for another child.

True

Still, I think it rather presumptuous to expect another child to be booted from the class because your DD had good grades in elementary school.

I don't want to have anyone booted out, but she didn't just outscore all those other kids (in both grades AND standardized tests) for the past 4 years, she also has better English grades NOW than many of those who are "in". And she's not the only one in her situation.

 

[Southernmiss]

Any chance they could open a second advanced class for next year?

 

[madmom1030]

I would talk to your dd counselor and see if you can appeal the decision. In our district it a combination of map scores, grades and the district assessment that determine advance class placement. Every student who is above a certain level is recommended for advance classes. I would question why it is only 25 students and why they are basing their decisions on only one assessment.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I don't think that its odd at all by the time a student reaches 7th grade. Of course that depends on how many schools you are talking about, here we have 2 middle schools and they each go to separate high schools so there really is a pretty good chance that the top rated students in 7th and 8th of those schools will still be the top rated students in their high school. The OP said there wasn't anything official but its not really hard to see who the exceptional students are when they are exceptional year after year.

This - I wasn't really trying to indicate it's "expected" of DD to be top 2 at the end of her class. It's just that in a small district such as we have, it's not difficult for the teachers to pick out the "stars". That isn't to say those will still be the stars 4 years from now - I know my top 10 in HS didn't turn out anything like we thought it might have 4 years earlier. It's just to say that SO FAR (for the past 8 years), it's been these 2, and then "everyone else".

I agree with the pp's that having all the students come from one class seems odd. I'm glad our school doesn't bother with placement tests, students are eligible for honor classes if they have maintained an average of (i don't know what it is offhand) the previous year and they are recommended by their teacher because they meet other criteria.

I do think having the test is fine, but I'm not sure it should be the only criteria.