Another incident to add to the "dolphins/whales in captivity in theme parks" debate

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have you heard of lolia captured in 1970 and kept in a tiny tank in miami:

'Lolita is a 42 year old captive killer whale (orca) living at the Miami Seaquarium in Florida. Since her brutal capture in 1970, she has been kept in a tank that is illegal by the Animal Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS) standards for size requirements. Lolita is approximately 21 feet long and 7,000 pounds. Her tank is 20 feet deep at the deepest point and a mere 12 feet deep around the edges. The pool is only 35 feet wide. The Miami Seaquarium is considered to be one of the most dilapidated aquatic parks in the world. It is in need of major repairs, and per the Marine Mammal Inventory Report, has a substantial death rate for their animals.'

http://www.savelolita.com/

TRAGIC.:sad1:

I find this terrible - it makes me sad what humans do to animals...all animals not just marine life.
 
For those interested:

Rick O'Barry begins his TV series, which is supposedly a follow up to The Cove, tonight on Animal Planet. It's called "Blood Dolphin$".

In addition, The Cove is airing on Animal Planet on Sunday 11pm EST. I recommend you watch it through to the end.

My DVR is set...
 
As someone who watches Whale Wars every Friday night screaming at my tv at the Japanese whalers, I was horrified seeing the advertisements on the upcoming shows on dolphin slaughters. Sadly, I am not unfamiliar with the story ...

This past spring, I was flipping through the tv when Oprah was on. I am NOT an Oprah viewer, but the topic of the show caught my attention. She had Ric O'Barry and the other filmakers on talking about their documentary The Cove. They showed scenes from the movie. It was heart-wrenching to hear the "screams" from the dolphins while they were being stabbed to death and seeing clear water turn red. I wanted to turn away, but knew it was something I had to see. There are some dolphins spared that are sold to marine parks "like" Sea World. Sea World has denied that any of their dolphins come from Taiji, Japan ("The Cove").

from the Oprah website:

SeaWorld vice president Fred Jacobs also weighs in. "SeaWorld opposes the dolphin hunts documented in The Cove. We do not purchase any animals from these hunts," he says in a statement. "More than 80 percent of the marine mammals in our care were born in our parks. We haven't collected a dolphin from the wild in decades."

However at some point, Sea World's dolphins were taken from their natural habitat. :confused3 Who knows how that was accomplished twenty years ago.

With the current age of technology, someone is always watching you. Maybe, that will be in the minds of some of those Japanese fishermen thinking about heading to the slaughter this September. Just because people did it in the past, doesn't make it right today.

Personally, I'd rather see a dolphin swimming along-side The Wonder as we head out to sea than doing flips at a marine park for my personal amusement. JMO

:goodvibes Jennifer
 
As always, I am curious to know if the folks boycotting Sea World will also be boycotting Disney.

If you're so against dolphins in tanks, you really should have the courage of your convictions and boycott Disney, too, don't you think?????
 

thank you for not visiting seaworld again.
i liked seaworld too - but when i saw this doc - broke my heart.
i always wanted to swim with a dolphin - but now i know i can't as it is just plain wrong. x

If you want to swim with a dolphin there are still places you can do it in the wild. Last year when we went to Hawaii we went out in the ocean and swam with the wild dolphins and it was amazing. There was not any cuddling or feeding, but it was an incredible experience watching them swim all around us.
We also got to see a baby whale and her mom playing on the way there. So don't give up on your dolphin swim dreams.
 
As always, I am curious to know if the folks boycotting Sea World will also be boycotting Disney.

If you're so against dolphins in tanks, you really should have the courage of your convictions and boycott Disney, too, don't you think?????

To add onto this.....

I'm curious to know how many of the folks boycotting Sea World, had their first experience with dolphins, killer whales etc at a Sea World park (or something similar)?

I'd also be curious to see how many boycotters have turned away from eating eggs, beef, pork, veal, fish or any other animal product that is raised under horrendous conditions and then killed in a violent manner.

How many boycotters like those really plump, boneless, skinless chicken breasts that are sold and do they realize that they come from really young chickens that have been given antibiotics, growth hormones and have been force fed so that to gain massive amounts of body tissue to the point where they cant raise their own body weight because there bones havent matured yet. These birds are kept in small boxes where they arent allowed to move.

I guess these questions cross my mind when I read posts like the ones above.
 
As always, I am curious to know if the folks boycotting Sea World will also be boycotting Disney.

If you're so against dolphins in tanks, you really should have the courage of your convictions and boycott Disney, too, don't you think?????


what does that mean? is this your comeback to what happens to japan?

i never understand why people have to say 'if you don't like such and such, then you shouldn't do such and such...'

is that your argument against the cove and marine parks?

it just gonna go and on with no relevance to the argument. and nothing be done about the main problem.

in the past when i have visited marine parks i never knew this:

*Every seven years, half of all dolphins in captivity die from capture shock, pneumonia, intestinal disease, ulcers, chlorine poisoning, and other stress-related illnesses. To the captive dolphin industry, these facts are accepted as routine operating expenses.

*What is the required amount of space for a captive dolphin to be happy? How big are the tanks that they live in when they are not doing shows?

The answer to this question is simple – any tank or enclosure is too small for a dolphin. According to US regulations, dolphin pens only need to be 30 x 30 feet and only six feet deep. With the current US standards, a dolphin would have to circle its pen more than 1,700 times everyday to simulate its natural swimming range in the wild! In warm weather such shallow water heats quickly. This can be extremely uncomfortable, and often deadly, for dolphins unable to escape to deeper, cooler waters. Not only is there no relief from the heat, but also the dolphin's sensitive skin can be exposed to the sun's scorching rays, causing blisters and sores. Also, in cement pools, chlorine is added to keep bacteria levels safe for humans. The levels of chlorine used, wreak havoc on a dolphin's skin and eyes, sometimes even rendering them completely blind.


*The average life span of a dolphin in the wild is 45 years; yet half of all captured dolphins die within their first two years of captivity. The survivors last an average of only 5 years in captivity.

*Wild dolphins can swim 40 to 100 miles per day - in pools they go around in circles
*Many marine parks subject their mammals to hunger so they will perform for their food. Jumping through hoops, tailwalking and playing ball are trained behaviors that do not occur in the wild.

*Confined animals who abuse themselves (banging their heads against the walls) are creating stimuli which their environment cannot supply. Dolphins in captivity tend to develop stereotypical behaviors (swimming in a repetitive circle pattern, with eyes closed and in silence) because of boredom and confinement. This is equivalent to the swaying and pacing of primates, lions, tigers and bears confined in cages.

*Most captive dolphins are confined in minuscule tanks containing chemically treated artificial seawater. Dolphins in a tank are severely restricted in using their highly developed sonar, which is one of the most damaging aspects of captivity. It is much like forcing a person to live in a hall of mirrors for the rest of their life - their image always bouncing back with no clear direction in sight.

Dolphinariums claim that their mission is to protect dolphins in the wild through research and public education. Those are nice words but facts speak louder. If dolphins are so happy in captivity, why do they die so fast? Why the secrecy about their mortality rates? There would be fewer spectators if people knew how many animals were "dying" to amuse them. Perhaps if the death records were displayed at the entrance, no one would buy a ticket.
 
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it just gonna go and on with no relevance to the argument. and nothing be done about the main problem.

I guess this goes along with what I was asking.

Does this passion follow through to all animals and the way they are treated?

Have you stopped eating beef, eggs, pork, veal, fish etc?

Do we boycott restaurants that serve chicken produced under the horrible conditions described?

Or...are we just demonizing Sea World and and such?

Think about every car on the road with leather upholstery. I'm guessing that the animals that gave up their skin to cover bucket seats did not pass gently from old age after living a full and satisfying life....but no one is boycotting auto-makers or shoe makers or the makers of leather jackets or purses.

I'm just curious as to why this specific line has been drawn.
 
I think the difference for me kevin is that it seaworld no longer feels educational to me. All the shows I saw in June focused on sentimentaility and 'the wow factor' rather than any information on the animals themselves. I learnt more in 10 mins in the living seas than a whole day at seaworld. This to me negates the benefit of having incredibly intelligent animals in cages which are far too small for their needs, without adequate stimulation. Other animals should be treated humainly, which is why I buy free range. However comparing domestic livestock and highly intelligent mammals is not a fair comparison.
 
However comparing domestic livestock and highly intelligent mammals is not a fair comparison.

If the right to be treated humanely is based on intelligence level, than I know a few people who are in serious trouble.

And where exactly is that intelligence cut off line? And who decided that's where the line should be?

I apologize...but I disagree with this statement.
 
I'm assuming you are asking because you want an answer.

To add onto this.....

I'm curious to know how many of the folks boycotting Sea World, had their first experience with dolphins, killer whales etc at a Sea World park (or something similar)?

My first experience was at the Chicago Aquarium. I was 10 years old. I remember that because I got a plush dolphin from there.

I went to Miami Seaquarium as a kid and another park in Virginia, but neither of them left me with an "education" or an appreciation for them or their habitat. The first time that appreciation happened was 20 years ago when around 5 dolphins swam up to our boat in Cancun and started jumping out of the water.

And this is why I make a point to expose my kids to nature and its creatures in their natural habitats - so they could appreciate the creatures and understand the importance of the habitats they live in. That's a priority my wife and I have, and it has paid off.

I'd also be curious to see how many boycotters have turned away from eating eggs, beef, pork, veal, fish or any other animal product that is raised under horrendous conditions and then killed in a violent manner.

How many boycotters like those really plump, boneless, skinless chicken breasts that are sold and do they realize that they come from really young chickens that have been given antibiotics, growth hormones and have been force fed so that to gain massive amounts of body tissue to the point where they cant raise their own body weight because there bones havent matured yet. These birds are kept in small boxes where they arent allowed to move.

I guess these questions cross my mind when I read posts like the ones above.

While I am not a vegetarian, my family and I have made a conscious effort to limit the amount of meat that we consume. In addition, we have made a decision to only buy meat/fish/poultry that have been raised in ethical conditions. (ie: only free-range chickens, non-farmed fish, grass-fed cattle, etc., & no veal at all)

But to each his/her own.

However, I do not necessarily see a perfect comparison here. While inhumane treatment of animals is abhorrent, there may be a difference (albeit a slight one) between animals being held for meat consumption versus being held for entertainment purposes. But that may be seen very differently by others.
 
I guess this goes along with what I was asking.

Does this passion follow through to all animals and the way they are treated?

Have you stopped eating beef, eggs, pork, veal, fish etc?

Do we boycott restaurants that serve chicken produced under the horrible conditions described?

Or...are we just demonizing Sea World and and such?

Think about every car on the road with leather upholstery. I'm guessing that the animals that gave up their skin to cover bucket seats did not pass gently from old age after living a full and satisfying life....but no one is boycotting auto-makers or shoe makers or the makers of leather jackets or purses.

I'm just curious as to why this specific line has been drawn.

okay - i'll make this real easy, for your argument - no chicken, no eggs, no beef, etc, no disney, no leather, no cars, no zoos for me - okay?

right. thats that sorted.

now can we get back to the problem of having whales/dolphins in capitivity?

how can you say i am demonising seaworld - just look at the facts.
i'll 'demonise' miami aquarium if you want me to. you seen the size of the tank that Lolita the 40 year old whale is in?
i'll 'demonise' any aquarium that takes dolphins/whales from their family in the wild. dump them in a tank, deprive them for food so they will perform tricks for us.

Lolita when first captured could hear her family from the confines of that tiny tank - calling her from the wild - can you imagine that?

who do we think we are making these creatures do this for our 'entertainment'?

you know in your heart of hearts it is wrong. deep down. we all know.
 
I'm assuming you are asking because you want an answer.



My first experience was at the Chicago Aquarium. I was 10 years old. I remember that because I got a plush dolphin from there.

I went to Miami Seaquarium as a kid and another park in Virginia, but neither of them left me with an "education" or an appreciation for them or their habitat. The first time that appreciation happened was 20 years ago when around 5 dolphins swam up to our boat in Cancun and started jumping out of the water.

miami aquarium info:

Are the Seaquarium shows educational?

Seaquarium Says: Our mission is to create an appreciation of our delicate ocean environments by displaying the natural abilities and beauty of marine animals through quality education and entertainment.... receive a better understanding of whales and marine animals in general.


FACT: About 5% of the show is educational. And that is only because the law requires it. The underlying message of cetacean display parks is that capture and lifelong confinement of orcas for profit and amusement is acceptable. People do not get to see anything that remotely resembles a wild animal. What they see are circus clowns.
Some parks even say that living in small tanks is better for the animals than their natural ocean habitats, which are called "cold, dark and ferocious" by Brad Andrews, director of operations for Sea World. It's hard to imagine a more disrespectful, anti-conservation message. At the Seaprison spectators see only a captive manipulated animal not the awesome strength, beauty, and social structure of natural orca populations.

All educational material derived from the four Sea World marine parks, Marine Land of Ontario, and the Miami Seaquarium contained longevity information that is significantly and consistently contradicted recent scientific literature. from Dispelling the Myths.


Read this comprehensive report on orcas in captivity
by the Whale and Dolphin Conservation Society:

*In the wild, orcas swim up to 100 miles a day.
In captivity, they swim around in circles.

*In the wild, orcas will dive hundreds of feet into the water.
In captivity, since the tank is not much deeper than 20 feet, they don't have the space to dive.

*In the wild, orcas use a highly developed sonar, also known as echo location, to hunt for food, to find each other, and to explore the depths of the vast ocean-their true home.
In captivity, in a sterile, chlorinated, desolate tank, they have no use for their sonar and it becomes a form of sensory deprivation.

*In the wild, orcas stay with their families throughout their entire lives. They are extremely social animals that hunt together, play together, sleep together, explore together, and communicate constantly using a dialect unique to each family pod.
In captivity, they no longer have their families. Lolita has been without any other orca for 23 years. (Hugo, the only other orca the Seaquarium ever had, was kept in a separate and much smaller tank than Lolita before she arrived. As former trainers can tell you, Hugo went insane and killed himself by repeatedly slamming his head on the wall).

*In the wild, orcas are free to make their own decisions--to play and swim and hunt and mate and truly LIVE their lives.
In captivity, they are slaves held against their will for human entertainment and profit.

These are the facts.
 
I guess the flip side to Kevin's question would be: if you do go to aquatic wildlife theme parks, would you in addition support the legalization of **** fighting or dog fighting?
 
okay - i'll make this real easy, for your argument - no chicken, no eggs, no beef, etc, no disney, no leather, no cars, no zoos for me - okay?

right. thats that sorted.

now can we get back to the problem of having whales/dolphins in capitivity?

Being flip and snide does nothing to further the conversation.

You have effectively dodged any real conversation in order to cut and paste more propaganda. Using terms like "Seaprison" can make people see you as a one note zealot

Have you done any research about the rescue or rehabilitation work that Sea World does or are they just prison guards and slave traders?

I see the work that Sea World does quite frequently. Living 15 miles from a Sea World park probably makes this more of a regular news item than in other parts of the world.

I see this in shade of gray rather than the absolute black and white that you do, but as I said earlier...being snarky does absolutely nothing to make me want to continue this discussion or to allow this thread to continue.
 
A little research will show that Sea World does a great deal of rescue and rehabilitation around the world.

The gray areas, for me at least, are in trying to weigh the good with the bad.

Without the bad, there would be no funds for the good. Does that make it ok....I dont know....but it makes me question things.

And I'm still fascinated as to where the line is drawn between acceptable inhumane treatment and unacceptable inhumane treatment.
 
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