Alec Baldwin shoots/kills cinematographer and injured director after firing a "prop gun".

[Stratman50th]

Swinging the cylinder open would reveal whether there was ANYthing in the gun. There should be nothing at all in the cylinder.

If there were ANY kind of cartridge, you'd simply remove it and see what it was.

This is what you should see.

View attachment 616333

Actually, the type of revolver they were using, the cylinder doesn't swing out. You open a trap door in the back to load each cartridge individually. When spent, you open the door and use the ejector rod to push out each spent shell. Now that being said, some of the cylinders can be removed completely.
Break down view of 1851 Colt Navy:



Purely speculation on my part as I haven't been following the daily cycle but the revolver they were using had probably been converted to use modern centerfire cartridges. The one above has not been converted and still has the nipples for the primer caps.

 

[bcla]

I disagree. He could have opened the cylinder and then pulled a round out to observe what type of round was in the gun. I agree that in some guns, the bullet is initially concealed, but the gun operator has the responsibility to do whatever is necessary to actually observe the condition of the gun, especially if it's their intent to point it at somebody and pull the trigger.

Again, he was on a film set. On a film set a lot of duties are compartmentalized. Actors don't even get their own coffee. Unless the scene calls for handling the ammunition, I don't believe they're ever supposed to touch the ammunition on the set, but to personally watch the armorer load the firearm.

I do get that best practices might not have been followed, such as not personally monitoring the loading of the firearms. However, they supposedly had COVID-19 protocols to minimize contact between crew members, including putting the prepped guns on a cart.

I see a lot of standards placed on Alec Baldwin compared to situations that simply aren't comparable to being on a film set where different aspects of the production are tasked out.

 

[StageTek]

1 report today that some of the crew were known to use the set guns for live ammo target practice during down times.

I have read that, too. If true, we now know why there were live rounds on the set.

Having live rounds on a set outside of two lock boxes - an ammo case AND a locked cabinet (both with different keys) is unacceptable. Using live ammo during down times is unacceptable.

I am a licensed pyrotech and I have been the armorer on 30 shows. I have never (nor have I ever seen) allowed a first (first assistant director) to touch a gun. A revolver must have dummy rounds in the chamber in order to look correct on camera. So the protocol is even MORE strict.

So many mistakes were made in this tragic situation. There have been very strict protocol's on sets for decades and tens of thousands of scenes have been shot (no pun intended) without incident. All it takes is one mistake and in this situation there were at least three.

 

[bcla]

If you're living in the city, I'd say you need a small firearm in your purse to protect yourself in the city way more than someone rural needs to protect themselves from wild animals. And if you came here and somehow was able to know, you would probably be shocked to know how many people around you in public have a firearm on them. Almost everyone I know carries a firearm on them or in their vehicle at least.

Really? I've been in a city. Even in a pretty crappy part of a city and I've never been in a situation where wished that I had a firearm on my person. I've been in rural areas and even came bears, and having a firearm never seemed like it would be useful.

 

[BroadwayHermione5]

It was a movie set. Again, someone is hired to be the "expert" who does all the safety checks and makes sure that people won't get injured.

The "safety measures" that you mention simply don't apply to film and TV. They are literally portraying people shooting guns at each other. It would certainly be impossible to make a western, police drama, or war movie without guns being pointed at each other, because that's what's done in a gunfight.

Still - we're still getting a lot of new information on what happened, and it's coming out gradually.

Regardless of the weapon, you treat it if it’s live or usable. So if you have a sword or knife assume it’s sharpened. A gun you assume it’s loaded. Plus film and TV sets have mandatory safety training. Anyone can ask whatever questions they have after the demonstration and sometimes they will let anyone who wants to hold the weapon (UNLOADED OR UNSHARPENED). There was also reports of the union workers having left and been replaced by the non union workers for the day, which also is not good.

 

[Sinder]

In a previous interview Hannah Gutierrez-Reed said she was afraid of loading blanks.
Why is someone who is afraid of anything related to firearms an armorist?

That whole production sounds like one big mess.

Again, he was on a film set. On a film set a lot of duties are compartmentalized. Actors don't even get their own coffee. Unless the scene calls for handling the ammunition, I don't believe they're ever supposed to touch the ammunition on the set, but to personally watch the armorer load the firearm.

I do get that best practices might not have been followed, such as not personally monitoring the loading of the firearms. However, they supposedly had COVID-19 protocols to minimize contact between crew members, including putting the prepped guns on a cart.

I see a lot of standards placed on Alec Baldwin compared to situations that simply aren't comparable to being on a film set where different aspects of the production are tasked out.

Because we are talking about firearms safety not someone getting you your donut and coffee.

The safe handling and the responsibility of using a gun should never be passed to someone else, or assumed it was done by someone else. Anyone who touches that gun has a responsibility to make sure it is safe to do so, ending with the person who is using it, in this case Alec Baldwin.
COVID-19, movie sets, actors who don't do anything for themselves, none of that matters when we are talking about using firearms. I don't understand why people can't grasp that concept.

 

[BroadwayHermione5]

I have read that, too. If true, we now know why there were live rounds on the set.

Having live rounds on a set outside of two lock boxes - an ammo case AND a locked cabinet (both with different keys) is unacceptable. Using live ammo during down times is unacceptable.

I am a licensed pyrotech and I have been the armorer on 30 shows. I have never (nor have I ever seen) allowed a first (first assistant director) to touch a gun. A revolver must have dummy rounds in the chamber in order to look correct on camera. So the protocol is even MORE strict.

So many mistakes were made in this tragic situation. There have been very strict protocol's on sets for decades and tens of thousands of scenes have been shot (no pun intended) without incident. All it takes is one mistake and in this situation there were at least three.

This! They need to have locked boxes and an armorer. An outdoor production of Two Gentleman of Verona I was in had the 3 clowns I think they were-anyway they had them be more like gang members and one (who is a close friend) operates the gun with blanks. The Armorer would not even give it to him until the police officer in charge of the park that night knew and acknowledged the weapon as well as saw the armorer put everything together. My friend after that first scene then had to give it back. My friend also had to have target practice prior to showtime.

 

[BroadwayHermione5]

Also sorry if I get a little heated. I’ve been involved in productions (both cast ANS creative) with various weapons and never once didn’t feel safe. The armorer was always present alongside the propmaster. This is very sad and very scary

 

[bcla]

Actually, the type of revolver they were using, the cylinder doesn't swing out. You open a trap door in the back to load each cartridge individually. When spent, you open the door and use the ejector rod to push out each spent shell. Now that being said, some of the cylinders can be removed completely.
Break down view of 1851 Colt Navy:

View attachment 616526

Purely speculation on my part as I haven't been following the daily cycle but the revolver they were using had probably been converted to use modern centerfire cartridges. The one above has not been converted and still has the nipples for the primer caps.

The only news that got out was that they had Colt revolvers on the set. I suppose it could have been anachronistic, but if the crew were out there shooting them, more than likely it was something easy enough to load without having to hand load black powder.

 

[pahoben]

I guess for some since it was an actor using a gun during work time it isn't the same.
I've asked 2 times in this thread if it was just some regular person would people be so quick to say it wasn't his fault. I got no answers.




This is insane if true.
Those firearms should have been locked up and only taken out when they were needed on the set.
Again, regular gun owners are expected to keep their guns locked and safe from others when not in use, but somehow when it's used as a prop all common sense about firearms goes out the window?

I guess for some since it was an actor using a gun during work time it isn't the same.
I've asked 2 times in this thread if it was just some regular person would people be so quick to say it wasn't his fault. I got no answers.




This is insane if true.
Those firearms should have been locked up and only taken out when they were needed on the set.
Again, regular gun owners are expected to keep their guns locked and safe from others when not in use, but somehow when it's used as a prop all common sense about firearms goes out the window?

The Producer has the highest level of responsibility for safety on the set. Baldwin's presence on a set with ongoing gross safety violations is of secondary importance but also inexcusable. Ultimately he was responsible for accepting a gun without the standard safety check (his joint inspection with the armorer)and treating it as though it had undergone the standard check and still handling it in an unacceptable manner even if it was in fact unloaded (pointing at center of mass of a crew member and pulling the trigger).

If you make the case that it was a dysfunctional and irresponsible movie set that resulted in death, then he still is responsible even though his following the standard last weapons check would have averted the tragedy.

He was negligent in his management duties as well as his duty as an actor to visually ensure the gun was unloaded. He didn't execute his responsibilities in a reasonably competent manner.

 

[bcla]

The deeper issue then is will the same standards of justice be applied to Baldwin as would be applied to anyone else. The link below details an accidental shooting in Taos when a 19 year old shot and killed his grandfather with an "unloaded" gun. He was arrested and charged immediately with involuntary manslaughter.

https://www.taosnews.com/news/crime...cle_f8a48da5-e2c4-5e1f-a376-1f9e66a540e4.html

That's only superficially similar. Certainly not comparable to a film set.

 

[DLgal]

If you're living in the city, I'd say you need a small firearm in your purse to protect yourself in the city way more than someone rural needs to protect themselves from wild animals. And if you came here and somehow was able to know, you would probably be shocked to know how many people around you in public have a firearm on them. Almost everyone I know carries a firearm on them or in their vehicle at least.

Disagree. My sister has been living in San Francisco for 20 years. Actually IN the city. She doesn't have a gun. Her husband doesn't have a gun. They have 2 young kids. She works at a gym and walks around downtown in the early and late night hours because she teaches classes. She doesn't need a gun. She carries pepper spray and has been assaulted 3 times, once on the BART (metro). She kicked the ever loving poop out of the guy while wearing steel toed boots, right after she punched him in the face. One time, she used the pepper spray and the guy ran away. The third time, she she threw an elbow and likely broke the guy's nose. She walked away calmly while he had his head in his hands, bleeding.

My sister is 5'4" and weighs all of 130 pounds. No one NEEDS a gun for protection just because they live in a city.

If someone breaks into my house, they are gonna meet the end of a baseball bat or a really scary Gerber fixed blade, USMC issued knife and a Marine trained to kill with nothing but his hands.

 

[TwoMisfits]

Disagree. My sister has been living in San Francisco for 20 years. Actually IN the city. She doesn't have a gun. Her husband doesn't have a gun. They have 2 young kids. She works at a gym and walks around downtown in the early and late night hours because she teaches classes. She doesn't need a gun. She carries pepper spray and has been assaulted 3 times, once on the BART (metro). She kicked the ever loving poop out of the guy while wearing steel toed boots, right after she punched him in the face. One time, she used the pepper spray and the guy ran away. The third time, she she threw an elbow and likely broke the guy's nose. She walked away calmly while he had his head in his hands, bleeding.

My sister is 5'4" and weighs all of 130 pounds. No one NEEDS a gun for protection just because they live in a city.

If someone breaks into my house, they are gonna meet the end of a baseball bat or a really scary Gerber fixed blade, USMC issued knife and a Marine trained to kill with nothing but his hands.

And if you're 65 and in a wheelchair? I mean, it's great to say a woman who has youth, health, and access to steel toed boots and pepper spray doesn't need a weapon against a single guy...now change the paradigm to 2 guys, or someone 8 months pregnant, or with a broken arm, or paralysed, or 75 and alone, etc, etc...

Weapons ALWAYS even the playing field and make folks think twice about attacking other folks. Whether you think that's good or bad is probably based on how safe the area you live in feels and how able you personally are...both in health and with the weapons in question...

 

[Sinder]

Isn't it great that we have the freedom to choose the protection we think we need

 

[pahoben]

And if you're 65 and in a wheelchair? I mean, it's great to say a woman who has youth, health, and access to steel toed boots and pepper spray doesn't need a weapon against a single guy...now change the paradigm to 2 guys, or someone 8 months pregnant, or with a broken arm, or paralysed, or 75 and alone, etc, etc...

Weapons ALWAYS even the playing field and make folks think twice about attacking other folks. Whether you think that's good or bad is probably based on how safe the area you feel is and how able you personally are...both in health and with the weapons in question...

At the time this movie was set a saying was (it sounds as though you know this ), "God created man, and Sam Colt made them equal".

 

[Jennasis]

I saw a brief interview with a set armorer this am who said had an AD ever attempted to take/touch a gun from his armored cart that they had broken fingers.

 

[dominiondad]

Again, he was on a film set. On a film set a lot of duties are compartmentalized. Actors don't even get their own coffee. Unless the scene calls for handling the ammunition, I don't believe they're ever supposed to touch the ammunition on the set, but to personally watch the armorer load the firearm.

I do get that best practices might not have been followed, such as not personally monitoring the loading of the firearms. However, they supposedly had COVID-19 protocols to minimize contact between crew members, including putting the prepped guns on a cart.

I see a lot of standards placed on Alec Baldwin compared to situations that simply aren't comparable to being on a film set where different aspects of the production are tasked out.

Yeah, I just don't buy that. Everybody who is going to handle a weapon assumes the responsibility of handling the weapon safely. EVERYBODY. Just because Baldwin is too rich to pour his own coffee doesn't mean it's cool to pick up a gun he hasn't cleared himself, point it at somebody, and pull the trigger.

Using COVID protocols to as an excuse to bypass firearms safety is nonsense. If those protocols meant Baldwin didn't receive the gun directly from the person who cleared it, that's even more reason to be extra vigilant.

Just imagine for a minute a police officer going into a school for career day. He is given a backpack of handouts and things to demo, including a real gun. He gets to the classroom, pulls the gun out of the backpack, points it at the teacher and pulls the trigger. The gun fires, killing the teacher. Do you think a trip to the Hamptons would be in his immediate future?

 

[bcla]

Yeah, I just don't buy that. Everybody who is going to handle a weapon assumes the responsibility of handling the weapon safely. EVERYBODY. Just because Baldwin is too rich to pour his own coffee doesn't mean it's cool to pick up a gun he hasn't cleared himself, point it at somebody, and pull the trigger.

Using COVID protocols to as an excuse to bypass firearms safety is nonsense. If those protocols meant Baldwin didn't receive the gun directly from the person who cleared it, that's even more reason to be extra vigilant.

Just imagine for a minute a police officer going into a school for career day. He is given a backpack of handouts and things to demo, including a real gun. He gets to the classroom, pulls the gun out of the backpack, points it at the teacher and pulls the trigger. The gun fires, killing the teacher. Do you think a trip to the Hamptons would be in his immediate future?

Again - movie set. They're supposed to have someone on set at all times whose sole responsibility is to prep the firearms for the particular scene. But yeah - a lot of that broke down.

 

[dominiondad]

Again - movie set. They're supposed to have someone on set at all times whose sole responsibility is to prep the firearms for the particular scene. But yeah - a lot of that broke down.

I've set this before, but I carried a gun every day for 24 years. Spent several years on SWAT and took a significant amount of training both thru my job and privately. Never once did I hear, or was it suggested, that the rules of gun safety be reduced or ignored on a movie set. If Baldwin's job required him to handle real guns, he should have exercised that same care other professionals who handle guns do. Given that Baldwin has been outspoken about the conduct of police officers and the NRA, my tolerance for his casual attitude towards gun safety is pretty low. I think the result of his "not my problem" attitude speaks for itself.

 

[TwoMisfits]

Yeah, I just don't buy that. Everybody who is going to handle a weapon assumes the responsibility of handling the weapon safely. EVERYBODY. Just because Baldwin is too rich to pour his own coffee doesn't mean it's cool to pick up a gun he hasn't cleared himself, point it at somebody, and pull the trigger.

Using COVID protocols to as an excuse to bypass firearms safety is nonsense. If those protocols meant Baldwin didn't receive the gun directly from the person who cleared it, that's even more reason to be extra vigilant.

Just imagine for a minute a police officer going into a school for career day. He is given a backpack of handouts and things to demo, including a real gun. He gets to the classroom, pulls the gun out of the backpack, points it at the teacher and pulls the trigger. The gun fires, killing the teacher. Do you think a trip to the Hamptons would be in his immediate future?

This is where we're gonna get into problems...if Baldwin gets a pass on getting charged and going through the legal process, why shouldn't everyone else when we're supposed to have equal protection under the law? If we won't enforce some laws against the rich and famous, we should take those laws off the books entirely.

Aka, in New Mexico, if Alec Baldwin won't get charged with involuntary manslaughter for performing a lawful act without exercising “due caution and circumspection” then NO ONE in New Mexico should get charged for doing the same. So, carrying a weapon into a store and accidentally discharging it and hitting a mom b/c you were twirling it on your finger or pulling in and out of your holster like a badass b/c you thought you brought it empty should just be labeled a "dumb accident" b/c it is, but with no charges b/c it's lawful to carry and if we let Baldwin not be charged, we're not concerned how careless and stupid you are if you didn't mean to hurt someone...

The whole point of involuntary manslaughter is you didn't mean it and you never meant to do it and you'd take it back in an instant if you could, but your colossally stupid and careless actions caused an awful unmeant action to happen anyway...