Airport Security Question. I'm confused.

[meloneyb21]

I understand the beefing up of security at U.S. airports because of the recent events, but what can we do about an international flight from somewhere else TO the U.S.? I mean, that flight to Detroit came from Amsterdam, so that means a checkpoint in Amsterdam failed right? TSA can enforce stricter regulations until we're all blue in the face, but technically doesn't our safety depend on whether these international airports are following suit and tightening their regulations? Who monitors international airport security? I don't know much about that but I'm very curious.

 

[bumbershoot]

I think the problem in Amsterdam is that either the airport is set up that int'l flights coming in don't have to be rescreened to go onto another flight. So it isn't that they failed, but that there was no need.

As the opposite, when DH went to Aus/NZ, he had multiple screens. He got into Sydney on United, cleared customs and immigration, then to the Qantas desk. Got his bag checked in there, then back through their screening to get to the Qantas flight to Canberra.

But not all airports have it set up that way.

So it's the Nigerian airport that failed, IMO.

 

[Brer Chump]

The reason why the DHS is taking heat is because the suspect's father reported him the the US Embassy that he was being indoctrinated by Al-Qada. Since then he was placed on a watch list only and not the no-fly list along with the fact his visa was not revoked.

 

[disneylove69]

I have been to the Amsterdam airport and felt it was tighter then the US. Heathrow I went through 3 screening just to get into the main terminal area and then went through another screening at the gate with Xray machines. I agree that DHS screwed up. Just like 911 the government was given warning.

 

[Flossbolna]

I understand the beefing up of security at U.S. airports because of the recent events, but what can we do about an international flight from somewhere else TO the U.S.? I mean, that flight to Detroit came from Amsterdam, so that means a checkpoint in Amsterdam failed right? TSA can enforce stricter regulations until we're all blue in the face, but technically doesn't our safety depend on whether these international airports are following suit and tightening their regulations? Who monitors international airport security? I don't know much about that but I'm very curious.

Actually security standards here in Europe are extremely high. There is a common coed of practice set over all the countries who are member states of the European Union. As far as I know those security standards are regularly discussed between the European Uniona and the USA. Also, I think TSA can impose certain conditions on airlines. If they don't comply with certain standards, they will not get permission to land in the USA.

Don't forget that security isn't only needed for flights to or within the USA. Europe is a target for terrorists as well. There have been bombings in the UK and in Spain and there is a warning out for Germany where I live. Also, Europe has quite a long history of terrorists hi-jacking planes since the 70s. Security has been much tighter in Europe for a long time. For example, I was absolutely amazed that everyone was allowed to walk to the gates in the airport when I visited the US in 1992.

 

[Missytara]

I have to agree; we flew to Europe in 2005. We arrived in Barcelona and security was extremely high at that time.

 

[Brian Noble]

Schiphol/AMS generally provides slightly tighter security for US-bound flights than most domestic airports. At least for passengers originating from other EU destinations, you have to be re-screened to enter a boarding gate for the US. I'm not sure if that is true for non-EU originations, or not. I suspect it is, because my recollection is that there was a re-screening point at the gate itself. But, it's been a bit more than a year since I've flown through AMS, so things may have changed.

It isn't the most intense I've experienced, though. As a PP mentioned, Heathrow doesn't mess around.

The most likely way this guy would have been caught is by using cash to buy the ticket, and not checking any bags. It's early to tell yet, but it appears that that information wasn't communicated to anyone who could have done anything about it. His appearance in TIDE alone would probably not have been sufficient---there are over a half million people listed in TIDE---though that may now change. On the other hand, it takes very little to be listed in TIDE, so that may cause enough trouble for innocent people that it still won't be done.

Ultimately, without a full hand and chemical screen of every single passenger's belongings (very slow), or deployment of fairly sophisticated machinery at every single security checkpoint (very expensive), Bad People will slip through from time to time. You're still more likely to be killed by a drunk driver on your way to the airport than you are a terrorist on the plane.

 

[goofieslonglostsis]

AMS Schiphol is my home airport. It is an airport with a pretty tight security. Things we are more relaxt in are stuff like medication, vegitation etc, but travellers safety? Hell no! ;-) I always have to be padded down as I'm a wheelchair user and can't walk through the check ports. Let me tell you, I've never been 'padded' so rigorously as I routinely get at AMS.

AMS is the only airport in the world asfaik at the moment that actually has got body scans that can do security checks for any items carried on or in the body without needing a human operating the scan (and thus seeing the persons body while being scanned). Those scans aren't being operated at the moment, as society at this moment finds it to be too violating of individuals. Those scans are to-tal-ly not my idea of what security should look like, but it does go to show imho how important Schiphol tends to take security that they are already there 'just in case'.

And this all still is talking about basic level of security. Now, when flying to the US? You get another nice check before you are able to enter a secured gate waiting area. Of course you'll have to do the security check again if you leave that holding area. While we are being told this is 'standard asked for by the US', I've seen airports do without these checks.

First thing AMS did was state they didn't know what happened and until they would, they wouldn't disregard any option. I found it refreshing that they didn't put together a pressconference right after hearing about this incident and stating "whatever happened, not our fault". Nothing of the kind, except -yet again- tightened security checks started right that same day. Since then, the US and FBI have informed AMS Schiphol and Dutch gouvernment that there was no blame being put on them, no security breach had been found so far. Not a position I expect either to take if they suspected otherwise.

Besides this; it can depend on the airline which further checks are done. To give you an idea; of course I get checked at AMS. My manual wheelchair (which I gate check) gets checked. My powerchair gets checked before being loaded and that's it. Or that's it when it comes to NWA, UA, KLM, MA, SA and LH at AMS airport. Not so with CO. Besides all of these checks, CO also pulled me out of the gate check line to ask me all kinds of additional security questions about the chair.

EU as a whole tends to be a little brother when it comes to the US. Like a little brother, they can have the tendency to want to do what big brother asks to get on brothers good side. To my own puking, the Dutch gouvernment tends to want to be the best boy, so whatever the US asks, suggests or even hints; our PM will bow and say "Yes, mister president". Same thing goes for airtravel security. As such, the security check at the gate for US-bound flights are stricter than any other at AMS than perhaps ElAl flights.

Is AMS airport infallible? No. Like any other major organisation in this world that has to deal with anything, Schiphol isn't infallible either. You wouldn't want to hear stories many that fly can tell you about airport security all over the world, also within the US itself. Never mind what we do, if somebody is determinated enough they will find a way to blow up an aircraft, crash it, whatever they fancy. It's a cat and mouse game.

As always; this is a situation from which all involved can learn. Learn, which I hope will not turn into being dominated by angst or blinding ourselves with wrong sence of heightened security being caused by the pants-wetting-funny new regulations like no flight map on international flights into the US. If we think these things will even make one terrorist go "hmmm, maybe I shouldn't be doing this", we have a MUCH bigger problem than the real problems this world has got.

 

[goofieslonglostsis]

To give you a 'nice' idea of how tight security can be at AMS; one very specific route that has a drug trafficing problem comes with a very high risk of not leaving AMS before you get "invited" for a nice "intimate" check. Yep.....................

And if we watch FOX, we all know how much drug-heaven our lovely corner of the world is.

 

[Flossbolna]

AMS Schiphol is my home airport.

Thanks for the informative post! It was great to get insight from someone who knows Schiphol as well as you do. I only had to get a connection there once traveling within Europe and thought that it was actually a very nice airport. I was so tempted to buy a huge block of cheese!

I think you might be a bit strict with regard to your own government wanting to please the American big brother. I think many of us in Europe feel that their country is worst at that.

I absolutely agree that there aren't any security measures around that will work 100%, the only way to get that would be suspending all air travel.

 

[goofieslonglostsis]

Thanks for the informative post! It was great to get insight from someone who knows Schiphol as well as you do. I only had to get a connection there once traveling within Europe and thought that it was actually a very nice airport. I was so tempted to buy a huge block of cheese!

Grin; don't. WAY to expensive -as all at any airport- and way too little choices. Probably still is cheaper to order online and have them ship to Germany.

Schiphol is pretty OK, especially for those from abroad. When lucky you get great plane-ride right through a village, get to see some great stuff like the windmills and there is a great Museum right at the airport. You can basically see quite some of the country without even ever leaving the airport.

I think you might be a bit strict with regard to your own government wanting to please the American big brother. I think many of us in Europe feel that their country is worst at that.

Ooh fun, EU citizins in a rat race who's gouvernment is the 'worst'. Maybe it's wrong one sentiment, who'll say? All I can say is I'm personally starting to get old with it.

I absolutely agree that there aren't any security measures around that will work 100%, the only way to get that would be suspending all air travel.

Amen!

 

[goofieslonglostsis]

AMS is the only airport in the world asfaik at the moment that actually has got body scans that can do security checks for any items carried on or in the body without needing a human operating the scan (and thus seeing the persons body while being scanned). Those scans aren't being operated at the moment, as society at this moment finds it to be too violating of individuals.

Lo and behold, the predictable is already happening. If it's up to our Minister of Justice, the bodyscans will be used as standard security screening. A majority of parlement agrees, so looks like it'll be a done deal. Never mind society not agreeing, never mind the EU being con, never mind there still being all kinds of questions left about for instance what will be done with the gathered info, details that are not worked out, there being conflicting opinions if it should be used on all passengers at AMS or only those flying to the US and so on. Phonecalls have already been made to the US gouvernment promissing these scans will be put into effect soon.......

 

[Flossbolna]

Lo and behold, the predictable is already happening. If it's up to our Minister of Justice, the bodyscans will be used as standard security screening. A majority of parlement agrees, so looks like it'll be a done deal. Never mind society not agreeing, never mind the EU being con, never mind there still being all kinds of questions left about for instance what will be done with the gathered info, details that are not worked out, there being conflicting opinions if it should be used on all passengers at AMS or only those flying to the US and so on. Phonecalls have already been made to the US gouvernment promissing these scans will be put into effect soon.......

Here in Germany they are talking about introducing them as well. But they say that they will wait for models which will not show the body form itself, but only anything attached to it. I guess this will be done by software. Also they say that we need to be certain that there isn't any negative health effect. But how will you determine that? It is still radiation, even if it is at a very low level. Scientist seem to claim that if you are going through those scanners frequently this may built up to unhealthy levels. And I guess we will only know the long term effects 20 years after they have been introduced on a large scale...

 

[goofieslonglostsis]

The type of scans they've got sitting around at Schiphol are told to be scans that do show the body, but only a "silhouet" of it. Of course, nobody really knows until we see prove of that. It's supposed to be that software judges each scan, and only if an alarm goes of a real life security officer would look at the scan and if needed, check the individual closer.

If you want to see more; they are showing some scan results in many of our public tv news. The item can be seen here; http://nos.nl/uitzending/6218-20091230-120000-nos-journaal-1200-uur.html from 0.54 until 1.29. Just think out all the Dutch babbling.

You are right about the radiation discussion. I mean, it's not a real biggie if you travel like once a year perhaps. But what about those flying weekly or more for business? Yeiks.

Guess personally I can't complain though. As usual with security equipment, the scans at AMS are only accessible for those able to walk and stand still for some time. As usual, I will bypass them yet again and be treated to a 'lovely' pad down and swap procedure.

Ah nice. Latest news; gouvernment is holding a live pressconference at 1.30 pm about the Dutch research done so far into how the terrorist got on the plane with the explosives. Live pressconferences and our gouvernment? Used to be a big thing. Can't really believe they've got something big to reveal about this. Starting to look like our gouvernment is getting more and more caught up into the hysteria instead of thinking straight, being critical, open to learning and realistic.

 

[goofieslonglostsis]

It's official, the body scans will be used at AMS.

Within 3 weeks they will be operating, apparently so called MMIMW type body scans? Fifteen are available, not all yet with the software needed to operate without needing a human to judge all scans. That's why it apparently takes 3 weeks to be operating. Scans will only be used for flights to the US. In the 3 weeks prior, more manual body searches will be done.

Apparently the US themselves have approved using the body scans. There is a treaty between the US and the Netherlands about these type of scans being put to use for security checks US bound flight.

Nice "detail"; the EU has not agreed the use of body scans yet, eventhough that is needed to legally use the scans as the standard. Not something anybody worries about, as gouvernment is confident the EU 'of course' will now agree.

So far it seems like Abdulmutallab's only reason to fly through AMS was because this was the quickest and earliest available itinerary to his disposal to travel to Detroit. No surprise there, imho.

 

[goofieslonglostsis]

Ah, here comes an interesting quote!

Now our Minister is stating the reason for using the body scans is because the US is demanding ALL passengers flying to the US are being manually frisked before entering the plane. Since that is too labourintensive and invasive, we've opted for the use of the body scans, althus the Minister.

 

[Flossbolna]

It's official, the body scans will be used at AMS.

Within 3 weeks they will be operating, apparently so called MMIMW type body scans? Fifteen are available, not all yet with the software needed to operate without needing a human to judge all scans. That's why it apparently takes 3 weeks to be operating. Scans will only be used for flights to the US. In the 3 weeks prior, more manual body searches will be done.

Apparently the US themselves have approved using the body scans. There is a treaty between the US and the Netherlands about these type of scans being put to use for security checks US bound flight.

Nice "detail"; the EU has not agreed the use of body scans yet, eventhough that is needed to legally use the scans as the standard. Not something anybody worries about, as gouvernment is confident the EU 'of course' will now agree.

Wow, I wonder when we will get them in Germany. Our constitutional court is actually very strong on right to privacy. I am sure someone would take the government to court over this issue. And then the European level added to this, pretty confusing. I remember that there were heated dissagreements about the level of data transfer to US authorities where some countries agreed to send the data to the US unilateraly and thus breaching EU law.

I guess the problem is: if you have those things standing around, no one wants to be responsible for the decission to not use them when another attempt is more successful than this one was.

What a mess!

 

[goofieslonglostsis]

A big mess indeed. Now the press is pushing the Minister it turns out they are making up the rules as they go. Incidental usage of these scans apparantely does not need approval of the EU, standard usage does. And "offcourse" only ALWAYS scanning those on US-bound flights is incidental................

Like you I can vividly remember the controversy over the data transfer. We've had no discussions about the usage of the scans until december 24th, at which point a huge majority of parlement was against using it, blabla, too violating, blabla. Yet again it seems like we only have an opinion until push comes to shuv. At that point, all bets are off and we go fetch when being told to do so.

 

[bavaria]

I haven't bothered to read most of the threads here this week because the few times I did look I was frankly sickened, and it reinforced what I have said for the past year or so here.

THANK YOU to my fellow posters for posting what you did, although I suspect that many will not read it or will now accuse of being 'anti-something'. There was similar thread on the CB which deteriorated into how 'poor' our security is, which is simply not the case.

After PA103 a lot of measures were put into place for US bound flights, such as the interview questions. Positive bag match was something we did for years long before it was done in America. US airports allowed non-passengers into the gate area before 9/11. We have to provide API and ESTA information. The list goes on and on and on.

And as you have stated, we had to contend with IRA, ETA, Rote Armee Fraktion, and any number of other groups for many decades.

The vast majority of short term changes implemented this week impacted us (how many readers here had to change their holiday plans this week, for instance? how many had their carry ons limited? how many had no IFE? how many had to stay seated?) It wasn't the US domestic flights - it was uswho had to do so and some of us in the end never got to our final destination.

The reality is that we have long had tighter security in place (coming from someone who travels regularly between US destinations, the developing world, and the major European airports).

The impact will be an economic one as well, as many people do choose to vacation elsewhere.

 

[bavaria]

Some more reference points

• EU and CATSA (Canadian) regulations prohibit some items in carry on luggage which TSA does permit
• rules are rarely bent in the EU airports - witness 'the rules are the rules' and carry on restrictions and limits are strictly enforced
• in many airports around the world one cannot enter the terminal without showing valid ID AND a ticket and/or boarding pass for a flight that day ie relatives/friends/visitors are not permitted inside the terminal unless flying
• in many airports around the world ALL travellers are subject to a full physical search (not a 'pat down')
• in many airports around the world there is nothing once one has passed through final security, other than the gate area ie no shops, no restrooms, no eateries
• in many airports around the world carry on bags receive a tag from the airline, which is in turn stamped once it is checked by security. If the tag is missing or the stamp is missing, one is not permitted to board
• in many airports around the world ALL carry on baggage is hand searched
• in many airports around the world the outside of the terminal is guarded by the military
• the American TSA just a few short weeks ago certified the airport in Lagos as ICAO compliant

And so I would turn the original question on its head and ask the OP why airport security in the US is so lax in comparison to 'international' airports.