Aggressive anti-rental email response from MS

[lawboy2001]

But the issue is, there is no "old rule". DVC has never tied themselves to any codified definition of what "commercial" means. Sure, there is the tangential reference to "20 reservations", but nowhere do they tie themselves down to that. It's about as undefined and ambiguous as the ROFR process.

No, but the ordinary meaning of the term “commercial purpose” is a venture designed to turn a profit. So, You can’t use your DVC membership as a profit making or money making business. But since rentals are allowed you can certainly use it to generate SOME income and defray maintenance fees. How you arrange your occassional rental — by using companies like redweek or david’s or by posting on a bbs yourself or by word of mouth — doesn’t affect this. It’s the degree of rental activity that should matter not the means used.

 

[Nursemanit]

I used WebEx and had them verify the confirmation- but I could cancel it now if I wanted to; so the verification is not worth the effort.

Stick with the board sponsor- saved me lots of grief .

 

[drusba]

My sense is we have two people, and not necessarily the organizations. who are unaware of correct procedure and rules, and created statements that are inapplicable.

The first such person is the one employed by the rental organization who apparently has no idea how DVC rentals actually work, because if he did he would know there is no verification procedure that the rental agency can possibly do with the the applicable DVC resort. Moreover, he would also know that he cannot even communicate with DVC about the rental because DVC does not communicate with the rental agencies about a reservation made by a member. Unless the particular rental agency knows nothing about DVC, it would know that there would be no such suggested contact with the resort or DVC.

The second person is the DVC contact who sent the email asserting that using the internet to do a rental is a prohibited "commercial purpose." He, and possibly his immediate supervisor, may have just made stuff up because they had never before received a request to have the rental agency make personal contact about the reservation to verify its existence. Everyone uses the internet to do reservations and rentals, e.g., email is part of the internet, and no one else who has recently done a rental, and obviousy used the Internet, has been informed that DVC considers that illegal. DVC has taken no action to contest the existence and business of the online rental agencies.

The "commercial purpose" clause was created by the Disney lawyers who drafted the POS. Commercial purpose is a common term under a number of statutes and has the common legal meaning of being in the business of making a profit. The POS clause itself requires a "pattern" of rental activity before it can be thought of as a commercial purpose and simply using the internet to do a single rental is not a pattern of rental activity. DVC long ago created the presumption it would use to determine whether a member is violating the commercial purpose clause. The rule it created is that a violation of the clause will be presumed if a member does 20 or more reservations in any given 12-month period, and even that presumption can be defeated by the member showing he was not engaging in rentals for a commercial purpose (e.g., something the member could probably prove if most of the reservations were the member's and the member's purpose for the others, which were rentals, was simply to offset his payment of dues). DVC has done nothing to officially change that previously created presumption, and one employee staing a new rule, which that the employee provides to only one member, may not have had approval of upper management.

 

[sethschroeder]

unless we are limited to renting to our personal friends, any rental will be conducted "over the internet."

And thats the point you are not supposed to be renting it out for commercial benefit. Giving it to a friend or having them pay fair value is different.

I always point out renting your points is really not allowed with DVC but people want to act like I am saying something crazy.

Rent them out all you want, I rented from people before I bought which was great, but don't blatantly tell Disney you are renting.

Unless they have some solid legal support for that, it is just their interpretation and maybe I will call their bluff!

You said you were renting it.... What exact extra supporting evidence do they need? Its not much of a stretch if you are renting them you are driving a profit.

Sure, there was no old rule. But this response, internet = pattern, is a completely new rule.

Nothing really new they are just clarifying that just because you rent it online to someone doesn't mean it isn't viewed as a pattern of renting your points for a profit.

No, but the ordinary meaning of the term “commercial purpose” is a venture designed to turn a profit. So, You can’t use your DVC membership as a profit making or money making business. But since rentals are allowed you can certainly use it to generate SOME income and defray maintenance fees.

So if a company uses 10 points for a single night in a studio then it is not considered commercial purpose? The whole crux of why people say you can rent is that it will never be caught imo.

Your whole example of lets saying renting 200 of 800 points annually is actually a commercial purpose for the 200 points to drive profit. That profit then is used to pay for MFs but its still specifically to drive profit.

Outlined this in the past but people don't like my interpretation so they just go with their "I can rent it out all I want" point of view.

In the end unless you rent a ton of points out or you directly tell DVC they are unlikely ever to know or care enough to really look in to it.

 

[NorCalDisFan]

It is interesting though, I went to the site the OP linked and there are a lot of "Verified" DVC rentals available.....

Right. The site is the famous rental site for timeshares other than dvc, and there're also dvc rentals. The site is good for owners of an expensive pp resort like vgc since owners can set the rental price.

 

[gavvy]

DVC must know what David's and timeshare store? are doing and they tolerate it. If they didn't like it they could put a stop to it but assume they fear the negative publicity it would generate. Unless you are renting for the cost of the dues only then eveyone is making some sort of return on the rental, does that mean all rentals are bad in disney's eyes?

 

[Suger Mag]

I think the problem is involving MS. When i have done it privately (renting my points via the DVC board) or most recently trying out the DVCRental store to rent some points for a vacation, I have never had to call or ask someone to call member services to verify or be involved in the process. You get or give a confirmation ##. I think what is making Disney nervous about your request and prompted that email is that you expect them to essentially pay their people to verify or deal with your rental reservation, and I could see them being like oh no, we already have enough phone calls, room requests blah blah to deal with... we are NOT going to start to personally verifying by phone point rentals.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

I've booked a reservation that I intend to offer for rent on a well-known timeshare rental/sale platform.

An advisor at the platform emailed and indicated they would be verifying the rental details and asked me to contact the resort to let them know they would be calling to "expedite" verification.

So, I emailed Member Services and told them this and just gave them a heads up. In hindsight, on a better day, I would have been more coy about what I was doing and maybe not bothered contacting MS at all. I have a bad cold today

But regardless I am frankly stunned by the email response I received:

Thank you for contacting Disney Vacation Club®.

While Members of Disney Vacation Club do have the ability to rent out Disney Vacation Club accommodations through their Membership on an occasional basis, use of Disney Vacation Club accommodations for commercial purposes is expressly prohibited. Commercial purposes include a pattern of rental activity. We view rentals of Disney Vacation Club accommodations over the Internet as a pattern of rental activity, which is prohibited under the Membership rules. Furthermore, we reserve the right not to honor any accommodations purchased or rented on the Internet. Please let us know if we may be of further assistance. Thank you and have a magical day I am well aware of the restriction on commercial renting, but the suggestion that a rental "over the internet" constitutes a "pattern" of prohibited rental activity is surely wrong, is it not? It's 2023 -- unless we are limited to renting to our personal friends, any rental will be conducted "over the internet." And it can't be because of my past activity -- although I have rented from time to time in the past, I've used my membership 3x since my last rental! I took them up on their offer of further assistance and asked for the email of a supervisor to complain. Either the advisor is off base, or the approved messaging is off base, IMHO.

I’ve been saying for a while that Disney is eventually going to crack down on the rental brokers like Davids and DVC Rental Store because those companies are competing directly with Disneys own bookings. Maybe Disney didn’t care when they were selling everything out, but now they’re not. This could be a fluke, but this also could be the beginning of a harsher policy. Honestly, I’ve never understood how Disney doesn’t go after a company that buys contracts, strips them, rents the points, and then resells them for a profit. That seems like “commercial activity” to me. I think it’s better for all of us in the long run if Disney implements policies that drive these companies out of business. You can still offer the occasional rental on places like Disboards, or facebook, etc.

 

[Matty B13]

The problem for DVC is that THEY are the biggest renter of DVC points, how would they work around this argument.

 

[RoseGold]

The problem for DVC is that THEY are the biggest renter of DVC points, how would they work around this argument.

Because their "rental" is in the paperwork explicitly. Yours is in the paperwork vaguely.

 

[Matty B13]

Because their "rental" is in the paperwork explicitly. Yours is in the paperwork vaguely.

Yeah I know it does, but it still isn't a good look for DVC. Even the one time use points, are technically Transferring Points for money which owners are not supposed to do either.

 

[RoseGold]

There are a whole lot of straight up commercial owners and renters of DVC. I've rented from LLC's twice.

If DVC wanted to mess with them, they could make them jump through some hoops and cause some chaos. But doing this would impact the value of the product. And Disney knows how much those rental families are spending and it's probably better than the owner unfavorables, like me.

I can imagine DVC messing with some companies, and they may do it. But I honestly believe they would give some warning, just so they don't freak everyone out and cause panic and selling.

 

[supersnoop]

Let's all remember that Disney enacted the transfer rules because people were renting out points by transferring them to companies like the board sponsor. They clearly associated renting through a company as prohibited commercial activity.

 

[lawboy2001]

And thats the point you are not supposed to be renting it out for commercial benefit. Giving it to a friend or having them pay fair value is different.

I always point out renting your points is really not allowed with DVC but people want to act like I am saying something crazy.

Rent them out all you want, I rented from people before I bought which was great, but don't blatantly tell Disney you are renting.



You said you were renting it.... What exact extra supporting evidence do they need? Its not much of a stretch if you are renting them you are driving a profit.



Nothing really new they are just clarifying that just because you rent it online to someone doesn't mean it isn't viewed as a pattern of renting your points for a profit.



So if a company uses 10 points for a single night in a studio then it is not considered commercial purpose? The whole crux of why people say you can rent is that it will never be caught imo.

Your whole example of lets saying renting 200 of 800 points annually is actually a commercial purpose for the 200 points to drive profit. That profit then is used to pay for MFs but its still specifically to drive profit.

Outlined this in the past but people don't like my interpretation so they just go with their "I can rent it out all I want" point of view.

In the end unless you rent a ton of points out or you directly tell DVC they are unlikely ever to know or care enough to really look in to it.

Sigh. Suggest you read drusba's post from yesterday, it sets out a succinct analysis of the terms. Whether you like it or not, DVC members can rent their ownership on an occassional, non-commercial basis. And since obviously the rental transaction will profit the owner (duh?) the mere fact that the owner will profit from the transaction doesn't mean that the owner is engaged in a commercial use of his or her membership. In your example of renting 200 out of 800 points, the owner is clearly primarily using their ownership for a personal purpose, even though they may have turned a profit on the rental transaction.

 

[take36]

There are a whole lot of straight up commercial owners and renters of DVC. I've rented from LLC's twice.

If DVC wanted to mess with them, they could make them jump through some hoops and cause some chaos. But doing this would impact the value of the product. And Disney knows how much those rental families are spending and it's probably better than the owner unfavorables, like me.

I can imagine DVC messing with some companies, and they may do it. But I honestly believe they would give some warning, just so they don't freak everyone out and cause panic and selling.

Aren't people and companies booking out or walking desirable dates just to rent them out at higher prices?

 

[lawboy2001]

I think the problem is involving MS. When i have done it privately (renting my points via the DVC board) or most recently trying out the DVCRental store to rent some points for a vacation, I have never had to call or ask someone to call member services to verify or be involved in the process. You get or give a confirmation ##. I think what is making Disney nervous about your request and prompted that email is that you expect them to essentially pay their people to verify or deal with your rental reservation, and I could see them being like oh no, we already have enough phone calls, room requests blah blah to deal with... we are NOT going to start to personally verifying by phone point rentals.

Maybe...but that's not what they said in their response to me! If they had said that, I would have been fine with it, and wouldn't be questioning them!

 

[lawboy2001]

Does anyone have any contact information for the director of Member Services, or some contact email address to press the concern I have raised with the email response I received from Member Services? Although they only took a few hours to respond to my initial email by incorrectly claiming that a rental transaction finalized "on the internet" was violating the membership agreement, they have, over 24 hours, not responded to my request for a manager's email to send a complaint to! funny that...

 

[sherylcin]

As a DVC owner and also a RedWeek member, I have to admit I was shocked to see how many DVC reservations are for “sale” on Redweek’s site.

 

[tjkraz]

Let's all remember that Disney enacted the transfer rules because people were renting out points by transferring them to companies like the board sponsor. They clearly associated renting through a company as prohibited commercial activity.

Which transfer rule is that? The rule of 1 transfer per year has been around since long before rental brokers were a thing. Main rule changes which seem to have been prompted by rentals are this limit of 20 transactions per year and limits on assigning associates to a membership. (There was a time when rental brokers could be made an associate on any number of contracts, and manage reservations themselves.)

 

[CarolMN]

Let's all remember that Disney enacted the transfer rules because people were renting out points by transferring them to companies like the board sponsor. They clearly associated renting through a company as prohibited commercial activity.