Aggressive anti-rental email response from MS

Let's all remember that Disney enacted the transfer rules because people were renting out points by transferring them to companies like the board sponsor. They clearly associated renting through a company as prohibited commercial activity.

Which transfer rule is that? The rule of 1 transfer per year has been around since long before rental brokers were a thing. Main rule changes which seem to have been prompted by rentals are this limit of 20 transactions per year and limits on assigning associates to a membership. (There was a time when rental brokers could be made an associate on any number of contracts, and manage reservations themselves.)
As I recall, the main /initial driver of the 1-transfer rule was "point morphing" and the booking system's inability to stop it.

Transferred points "morphed" into the resort of the receiving account. People were transferring large amounts of (for examp!e), SSR points into BWV contracts and then using the transferred points to book BWV villas during the home resort booking priority period.
 
There are several Facebook pages where individuals have as many as a dozen or more 2 and 3-night confirmed reservations available. At one time.
But how.many of those were booked when the 11/ month window opened? It's more likely that they were booked fairly close to the arrival date, or at least after the 7 month window has opened.

Some owners do book popular villas/dates at 11 months and then rent them for a premium. Personally, I wish they wouldn't, but it's legal to do so. They must abide by the same booking rules as everyone else.
 
But how.many of those were booked when the 11/ month window opened? It's more likely that they were booked fairly close to the arrival date, or at least after the 7 month window has opened.

Some owners do book popular villas/dates at 11 months and then rent them for a premium. Personally, I wish they wouldn't, but it's legal to do so. They must abide by the same booking rules as everyone else.

I feel that confirmed bookings are so much higher now especially on the DVCRentalStore site. And it seems a large number of them are booked around the 11 month window.
 


But how.many of those were booked when the 11/ month window opened? It's more likely that they were booked fairly close to the arrival date, or at least after the 7 month window has opened.

Some owners do book popular villas/dates at 11 months and then rent them for a premium. Personally, I wish they wouldn't, but it's legal to do so. They must abide by the same booking rules as everyone else.
The point is, when an individual books nearly 20 separate, 2 or 3 day reservations (mostly weekends), spread over the course of 2 or 3 months, and posts them all concurrently on a Facebook page, they are clearly doing so for the purpose of commercial activity. When they make the reservations is moot. At least one renter I saw had to have nearly 1,000 points spread out over all of the various reservations.

Not arguing that the activity doesn't comply with the vague rules regarding renting, simply stating that contract ownership for the sole purpose of renting for profit does exist and the evidence is readily available. The question was:

Aren't people and companies booking out or walking desirable dates just to rent them out at higher prices?
And the answer is yes. It may be perfectly legal, but that wasn't the question.
 
I always thought rentals would garner more attention offering the points for any available dates rather than a specific resort + room + dates. But some people started grabbing specific room types and dates to maximize their revenue. And now some rental sites have gone all-in on this idea of forcing members to pre-book dates for posting on a web site. There are organizations who have control of large blocks of points, who habitually roll their unrented reservations to new dates, tying up availability.

I have no idea what sort of Disney guest would want to buy a 1-2 day rental in a One or Two Bedroom villa. But here we are...
 
My sense is we have two people, and not necessarily the organizations. who are unaware of correct procedure and rules, and created statements that are inapplicable.

The first such person is the one employed by the rental organization who apparently has no idea how DVC rentals actually work, because if he did he would know there is no verification procedure that the rental agency can possibly do with the the applicable DVC resort. Moreover, he would also know that he cannot even communicate with DVC about the rental because DVC does not communicate with the rental agencies about a reservation made by a member. Unless the particular rental agency knows nothing about DVC, it would know that there would be no such suggested contact with the resort or DVC.

The second person is the DVC contact who sent the email asserting that using the internet to do a rental is a prohibited "commercial purpose." He, and possibly his immediate supervisor, may have just made stuff up because they had never before received a request to have the rental agency make personal contact about the reservation to verify its existence. Everyone uses the internet to do reservations and rentals, e.g., email is part of the internet, and no one else who has recently done a rental, and obviousy used the Internet, has been informed that DVC considers that illegal. DVC has taken no action to contest the existence and business of the online rental agencies.

The "commercial purpose" clause was created by the Disney lawyers who drafted the POS. Commercial purpose is a common term under a number of statutes and has the common legal meaning of being in the business of making a profit. The POS clause itself requires a "pattern" of rental activity before it can be thought of as a commercial purpose and simply using the internet to do a single rental is not a pattern of rental activity. DVC long ago created the presumption it would use to determine whether a member is violating the commercial purpose clause. The rule it created is that a violation of the clause will be presumed if a member does 20 or more reservations in any given 12-month period, and even that presumption can be defeated by the member showing he was not engaging in rentals for a commercial purpose (e.g., something the member could probably prove if most of the reservations were the member's and the member's purpose for the others, which were rentals, was simply to offset his payment of dues). DVC has done nothing to officially change that previously created presumption, and one employee staing a new rule, which that the employee provides to only one member, may not have had approval of upper management.
This sounds reasonable, but I don’t think some random DVC employee would ever feel the need or even be capable of generating what sounds like legal boilerplate.
 


Is renting points still saving 30-40% off these days? I remember looking to rent some AK points and it came out to like 350ish for the rental while cash stay was 400ish which after tax and what not I was only saving like 100 a night. At the time they were still not doing daily housekeeping on cash stays but it was kidani vs jambo which is totally a preference thing so it seemed like an okay deal. But the cancellation (especially during covid) flexibility and the "security" of booking with disney won out for 100 a night. Then some discount dropped and it was pretty much a wash.

I guess the run events, holidays, and special parties reservations and if you have cheaper points where you can score hard to get rooms you can make a tidy profit. There are what looks like multiple multi million dollar companies making money off of dvc! Wish I thought about that!
 
Aren't people and companies booking out or walking desirable dates just to rent them out at higher prices?
Yes, they are. Mostly the low point cost rooms. AKV value, BWV STD, BLT STD..... Members grab reservations, walk them the popular time periods (or low point seasons) and rent out the stays for a fixed cost, not $ per point. This way they maximize the $ per point they get. I say this based off the traffic I have seen on this and other boards.

Renting for commercial purposes has been going on for years. The first resale I bought back in 2017 was from one of the smaller resale sites. During the purchasing process it became apparent I was buying the points from the owner of the site based on conversations I had with the agent. So, I did a little internet sleuthing. This individual owned both the brokage and a rental company specializing in DVC. In the process of recording the deed, I found he owned many deeds under his name, and many more with person A, and many more with person B, and many more with persons A and B...... In all he owned dozens of contracts with various combinations of 6+ people. I suspect each ownership group got around the maximum number of points allowed to be owned by an individual and/or the 20 reservations per year "rules".
 
I never understood why Disney doesn't offer to rent out your points for a profit . It could be another revenue stream for them and make it easier for the owner. I could understand maybe putting a limit on it to say 2 out of 3 years or something to that affect . They could put these other companies out of business. On that fact why not even offer to resale every contract for a profit .
 
Let's all remember that Disney enacted the transfer rules because people were renting out points by transferring them to companies like the board sponsor. They clearly associated renting through a company as prohibited commercial activity.
Just need to provide a bit of correction here... Transfer activity is something that we have never done here at the DVC Rental Store. As many other educated DVC Members in this thread have done, we have studied and paid very close attention to what Disney both views as "commercial" renting and all other rules and regulations of renting outlined in the POS.

Its also one of the reasons great articles like this one have been written on DVC Fan over the years: https://dvcfan.com/2023/04/14/dvc-fact-check-are-rentals-and-transfers-permitted-by-dvc/
 
I never understood why Disney doesn't offer to rent out your points for a profit . It could be another revenue stream for them and make it easier for the owner. I could understand maybe putting a limit on it to say 2 out of 3 years or something to that affect . They could put these other companies out of business.
I cannot see Disney trying to straddle that fence, offering villas for cash at one rate and villa rentals at another rate.

They could offer to buy-back single year points for a fixed price. But the rate would surely be lower than what rentals yield. Right now, when using exchange programs (DCL, ABD, etc.), the value Disney assigns to points is only about $9 each. And the owner still has to pay annual dues.

If DVC offered to buy-back points for $9-10 each, with members still paying dues of ~$8 each, I doubt they'd get many takers.

Rentals "work" because they are a means for getting a hotel-like villa (Studio) for less than a standard Disney hotel room. Disney can't afford to under-cut its own pricing.

On that fact why not even offer to resale every contract for a profit .
For many years, people asking DVC about selling their points were referred specifically to Fidelity. I always assumed DVC had some deal to get a kick-back from Fidelity. But no hard info either way.
 
Sigh. Suggest you read drusba's post from yesterday, it sets out a succinct analysis of the terms.

That is a single interpretation and Disney holds all the cards after which you need to challenge it if they start cracking down. This isn't the first thread on this topic and wont be last.

I stand by a random rental here or there you will be fine and never found by Disney. Recurring rentals if discovered (which is unlikely) Disney could strike against regardless if you are running a "business" in your mind.
 
One employee making ish up isn't something to get freaked out by.
An advisor at the platform emailed and indicated they would be verifying the rental details and asked me to contact the resort to let them know they would be calling to "expedite" verification.

Literally impossible unless you give them ALL of your info. Since you said "they would be verifying the rental details and asked me to contact the resort to let them know they would be calling to "expedite" verification" BUT then didn't give them enough info to do that, it's moot. They wouldn't be able to do that.

ETA: I'm also not sure how the rental company could contact MS (or the resort) to confirm the reservation. They'd need all of your other information (membership #, last 4 of social, etc) just to get MS to release the info.

Exactly.

Really all I gave them was the confirmation….none of the other info that others have pointed out the company would need to have MS actually talk to them. And you can’t rent a reservation without sending the other side the proof of a confirmed reservation so….

Then you contacted MS for no good reason. I've owned since 2009. I've belonged her for longer. And I have never heard phrasing like you said redweek said. I bet the DVC rep hadn't, either.

He, and possibly his immediate supervisor, may have just made stuff up because they had never before received a request to have the rental agency make personal contact about the reservation to verify its existence.

Exactly.

And thats the point you are not supposed to be renting it out for commercial benefit.

You can ask for money, Seth. You canNOT ask for money for transferring points; that is clearly stated. It's not clearly stated for rentals, though.

I always point out renting your points is really not allowed with DVC but people want to act like I am saying something crazy.

It is.

I’ve been saying for a while that Disney is eventually going to crack down on the rental brokers like Davids and DVC Rental Store because those companies are competing directly with Disneys own bookings.

They did at one point by making them change how to do their business. They changed, it's all good. What isn't good is whatever redweek said to lawboy.

They clearly associated renting through a company as prohibited commercial activity.

Naw.

Maybe...but that's not what they said in their response to me! If they had said that, I would have been fine with it, and wouldn't be questioning them!

There is no "they". There is THAT rep and that rep alone. Some reps are weird. I used to be amazon CS and I read every internal news bulletin and used their "blurbs" intensely. I sent big legal issues to the right queue and let them be answered by the official people who knew (or once a legal blurb was created and the contact sent back, I responded with that). I was somewhat unique. Lots of reps were making stuff up left and right. Sounds the same with DVC. Nothing a random rep said was legally binding; they're just customer service people. Disney doesn't paint themselves into corners like the email you were sent does.


Does anyone have any contact information for the director of Member Services, or some contact email address to press the concern I have raised with the email response I received from Member Services? Although they only took a few hours to respond to my initial email by incorrectly claiming that a rental transaction finalized "on the internet" was violating the membership agreement, they have, over 24 hours, not responded to my request for a manager's email to send a complaint to! funny that...;)

The supervisors are likely having a convo with the rogue rep, lawboy. Don't worry about this.
Your MS contact was useless, as I mentioned above. RW cannot call to get info. They cannot do so unless you basically give them enough info that would allow them to take over your account, which of course someone using the name lawboy would not do. It's all moot.
 
Thanks to all for this input!! I agree, this verification is pointless...in the fog of my cold I didn't catch that. But not to worry, this is a very legit company, I have used them with my Hyatt timeshare. redweek.com In case that gets caught in the filter it is a well known company in existence since the 1990s as far as i know.
I have used that company many times (non DVC though) and they are very reputable. If Disneys position on this is to protect the normal DVC owner from large point owners with the intent of renting all their points/reservations for profit, I am fine with that. After all the years of massive increases and customer cutbacks and this is Disney’s response because of their lower hotel occupancy, I have no sympathy for them
 
Confirmed reservations are going for $30 per point, some even $35 (I can list a bunch right now). Not just any confirmed reservations, specifically targeted resort-room-date categories that have the highest profit margins and demand. Businesses have a huge advantage here over casual owners. It’s their sole focus to secure their best profit options asap. Year on year this has escalated. There’s a huge difference from personal use booking trends. Other timeshares have already reacted.

We can only speculate. DVC has yet to clarify. I think they were not motivated to set solid boundaries when it still served owners and themselves. DH and I discussed different strategies and risks for buying 2nd DVC. Commercial impacts came up. Very possible DVC eventually makes changes here. For that reason we decided to avoid the large cheaper resorts. If commercial renting rules were clarified, which resorts’ resale values get hit the worst?
 
Reading on TUGG where lots of folks use Redweek, it seems this is SOP for Redweek when you want to rent a confirmed DVC reservation through them. Clearly lots of people jump through this hoop, because there are a ton for reservations for rent currently on Redweek.
 
Disney already knows that renting is happening. More importantly, they know what renters are spending.

If renters acted like unfavorable owners (like me) and came with APs and a sandwich from home, they'd be cracking down. Wildly speculating here that those families spend more than me in the parks, at least per night. And let's be clear about the goal here. This is all about revenue for the mouse.
 
Disney already knows that renting is happening. More importantly, they know what renters are spending.

If renters acted like unfavorable owners (like me) and came with APs and a sandwich from home, they'd be cracking down. Wildly speculating here that those families spend more than me in the parks, at least per night. And let's be clear about the goal here. This is all about revenue for the mouse.

They love me, every time I come its with a bunch of kids and parents that work all the time so we try to buy our kid's love with mountains of toys and merch!

Kidding aside, I find it a bit unsettling that dvc and other Disney goers are probably rank in some server somewhere in terms of our profitability and "worth" to Disney. Now they have Alexa in every room so they can in real time see who is able, willing, and needs to spend on food, souvenirs, and clothing.
 

Rest my case

Just for an overview:
Limited solely for personal use is the outline for all use cases that are allowed except for corporations that can have people use it for recitational purposes only.

You want to act like renting or repeating renting in volume is not a commercial act. Thats fine thats your interpretation but Disney could say thats wrong and enforce it if you are profiting from the rentals you conduct.

I will step away from the thread at this point because people seemingly are unwilling to read how Disney could interpret the contract and unlike the point charts this would only impact a small segment of DVC owners making it a minority instead of majority issue that Disney could outline in the best interest of the general ownership and would likely be right since most people don't rent their points out likely.
 

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