About the DVC Pass Discount and other Discounts (LONG)

[Mojomanny]

If you do a search about DVC and Discounts, I bet you will find 1000's of postings.

Ladies and gentleman, the fact is there are no super secret or tremendous discounts involved in DVC. It is as simple as that.

Would it be nice of there was? Yes.

Does Disney owe us a discount or special treatment? No. We all bought a contract which allows us to use our points in accordance to that contract. There are no statements that say we will get 1/2 price tickets, special priviledges or any other special "hidden" perks.

DVC is owned by Disney, but is its own seperate corporation. It is responsible for its own Profit and loss. Each park is its own seperate company, as is transportation, hotels/resorts, the cruise line and just about every other facet of WDW. Each hotel/resort is charged by the laundry for cleaning the sheets and towels. Each food stand is charged for the supplies it uses including uniforms for the cast members. It is up to each of the different operating units whether they want to offer us an inducement to enjoy them. Park Ops will decide if they want to offer us a discount or not. I am sure DVC would love to get us all 1/2 price tickets or lifetime passes, but either they will have to buy them from park ops or convince park ops to give them the deal, both of which is highly unlikely.

I do not think Disney looks at DVC as a captive audience (ie: why give them a deal when they are gonna come anyway) or a bunch of suckers to be exploited. I do think they look at us as a group of knowledgeable and savvy consumers who have taken advantage of a great opportunity to enjoy the Disney Magic for the next 41 years.

They have agreed to build nice properties for us to buy our shares in. They have made the exoenditures on the speculation that they will sell the properties and make a profit, as well as return the properties to their inventory when our contracts expire.

I think DVC and Disney has got to be sick and tired of our whining about what they ought to do for us or owe us for our loyalty. That is what we are all doing. We bought what we bought, we are getting what we paid for.

How would you feel if you own a car dealership and sell a car to a person and a year later they come in say you should give them a remote starter for 1/2 price or free because you made such an investment in the vehicle. Or what if you owned a restaurant and after serving someone their meal, they say they think you should give them a larger steak than the 12 oz they ordered since they come in all the time and are so loyal to you and your restaurant.

I am glad I bought DVC and think that I am getting the better part of the deal. I know that we will be going to Disney and enjoying the vacation I want. My son will grow up through the parks, transitioning from the Magic Kingdom to Epcot to Animal Kingdom and MGM. Someday my grandchildren will enjoy the investment I have made

In closing, we are getting what was promised to us. Instead of complaining about what we would like, please appreciate what we have, which is tremendous vacation opportunity.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by Mojomanny
I think DVC and Disney has got to be sick and tired of our whining about what they ought to do for us or owe us for our loyalty. That is what we are all doing. We bought what we bought, we are getting what we paid for.

While I agree in large part to your sentiments, I could frankly care less if Disney thinks the members are whining. I agree that DVC does not "owe" members discounts, I think they are making a large mistake by not having more discounts. To ask for the same discounts they give other large groups (FL residents) is not unreasonable. I'm a FL resident so I don't say this out of hope for personal gain. I am again rememinded of pre WWII Germany when no one said anything until it was too late.

Truth is that the guides "promised" a "substantially equivilent replacement" to the park pass program to at least some of the earlier purchasers. While I realize that this was not in writing, it was a verbal commitment if one could prove it. That is the problem however, it is difficult to prove. I have a friend that bought in the first couple of months and there is no question that she was told this and we have heard it from others as well. I do realize that timeshare salesman lie, bend the truth, etc all the time and that includes those from DVC and that this is to be expected. I know I personally was told incorrect information when I toured and am convinced it was intentional and deliberate but since I bought resale, I don't have any issues with it. In general DVC sales guides are pretty honest and straightforward but there are exceptions.

Remember that in theory, DVC (sold out resorts) are currently owned by the members, at least until 2042. The resorts are actually separate entities The fact that there is no member representation on the Board is not appropriate and likely in conflict of the By Laws. The Board of Directors is legally bound to act in the best interest of the members and not Disney. If it could be proved they did otherwise, they would be in legal hot water.

 

[Mojomanny]

I agree with your comments regarding the board. My question is why do we not have board represtation?

I think it could be logical from a business sense, but DVC needs to convince the other business units to "see the light". Unfortunately, they have thus far failed to do this to any great degree.

I am sorry if some of the early buyers were mislead or misinformed by their reps. I can tell you that my rep was low-pressure and very honest.

 

[jcodespoti]

Our guide Larry Hope never promised us anything when we bought. That was in December of 1999. I don't care what the guides have said or what they "promised" you get whats in the contract. Thats why I read the whole thing before I bought (even the legal description thats what us land surveyors due I guess). I also agree it would be nice for Disney to give us a real discount on something, maybe not park passes but something. But then again if they did decides to give us something, somebody would find something wrong with it.

From what I read the board is supposed to act on our behalf true. But only whats in the by-laws. Nowhere does it say that under Article so-and-so we get a discount for...whatever.

Like I said, it would be nice to receive a perk. But I just don't expect one

Joe in CT

 

[profdsny]

While you are right in many things, perhaps your examples could be better chosen. Car dealers do reward their customers, as opposed to those who just come in for service, with coupons for free oil changes, and the like. Restaurants, while not giving you a bigger 12oz steak than the other person, reward their frequent diners in a number of ways. Many is the time that places I frequent send over free drinks, or dessert, or other things, just as a way of recognising my patronage. Other places have a more formalized frequent diner plan, just as do hotels and airplines. They know people can go other places. As can we, using our points at other than Disney hotels and resorts.

 

[jctwizzer]

Just for another experience: we have patronized about six local eating establishments regularly for the past five or six years. We rarely eat dinner at home. We know the people running these places. We have never received a gratuitous item of any kind. And, frankly, don't expect any. We also own two other timeshares besides DVC. Both are solvent. Except for the accomodations we bought, we have not received doodly squat from those timeshares. And, again, do not expect anything. Based on our experience, the competition isn't doing it; DVC seems to be growing at a nice rate; we are getting what we paid for. Why do some people expect something, for nothing?

 

[Mojomanny]

I must admit, I was a bit worried about placing the post since it seems so contrarian to most of the posters who are expecting more than their contract calls for.

It is nice to see that I am not "banished" from the board or flamed by the others.

I love Disney and my DVC investment, I just think it is time we stop whining about what we think Disney should do and appreciate what we have.

Happiest of New Years to All and may your God Bless You.

(BTW - my family are also regulars in several restaurants and have never gotten a comp (except for Vegas) unless there was something wrong with the meal. In one case we were eating twice a week minimum at one place since my wife, while pregnant, had cravings for their salad dressing. It was such a sacrifice )

 

[PKS44]

profdisney wrote:
"While you are right in many things, perhaps your examples could be better chosen. Car dealers do reward their customers, as opposed to those who just come in for service, with coupons for free oil changes, and the like. Restaurants, while not giving you a bigger 12oz steak than the other person, reward their frequent diners in a number of ways. Many is the time that places I frequent send over free drinks, or dessert, or other things, just as a way of recognising my patronage. Other places have a more formalized frequent diner plan, just as do hotels and airplines. They know people can go other places. As can we, using our points at other than Disney hotels and resorts."


There are at least three threads going about this now and many before and it amazes me to see the same incorrect and naive idea suggested over and over. DVC has our money and our business. Period. Use your points wherever you like, that is still money in DVC's pocket. With DVC you have prepaid for your hotel accomodations. The rest is just marketing other products to us, whether it's restaurants, parks, golf, etc. No sound business ever gave anyone anything that was not ultimately designed to put MORE of your money in their pocket than if they did not give it to you. Bottom line-these are NOT rewards for loyalty, they are priming the pump.

Perhaps chumming the water is the best metaphor- we are the sharks and they are trying to catch us. We swim in to scavenge up the little fish bits they throw out, they jam a big hook in our mouths and pull us in.

Paul

 

[Richyams]

Everyone seems to discount the promises that were made from the begining.

Why do some people expect something, for nothing?

Umm, sorry, but you are not very well informed. Maybe its because you joined so recently, many are only expecting what they were promised. We were told that "A substantially equivilant replacement for the pass program would take over in 2000 when the passes run out".

I don't know any other way to read that.

Can one of you apologists please help me to inturpert that.

Not only were we made that promise, but each year when we stayed at OKW, we asked our guide and then our new guide. As late as '95 and it may have even been '96, she told us that an announcement was coming and we would be VERY HAPPY with the replacement progam.

I know, its Disney, they are right to make empty promises, they are right to lie to people about occupany limits, they can use WDW DVC resorts to sell their failed ventures at HH and VB, they can lie to people about the ease of using VB points at WDW "WHenever and whereever they want".....I just keep forgetting that its Disney and it is their right to treat people in this manner.

 

[Dean]

Paul, I think the difference is in the question of whether Disney would be giving us anything or not. It is my expectation that DVC act on behalf of their members and get benefits where they can, including park passes and discounts. This is not a gift, it would be a benefit or membership. That's generally what being a member of something is all about. Now whether you as a member want DVC spending their time and money pursueing this direction, is really the consideration. Up to a point, I would highly support them in this direction as I think it's the right thing to do. The other companies within Disney would need to decide, from a business stand point, what is best for them. For example,I don't expect the GF to give DVC members rooms for a discount that they can sell for full price. I do think that the controlling company at Disney should look at the overall picture (I'm sure they do) and give direction to the different components. An example might be telling the Park admission components to give DVC members a break because overall it will pull in more money. I'm sure they do this type of thing all of the time such as the specials on Disney resorts that have been prevalent lately.

Frankly, I think the discounts should be far higher than the AAA or FL resident discounts but Disney hasn't shown that is likely.

 

[WebmasterDoc]

Umm, sorry, but you are not very well informed. Maybe its because you joined so recently, many are only expecting what they were promised.

Sorry, Rich, but I consider myself very well informed. I joined in '93 and was NEVER promised anything like what you claim. My guide never mentioned it (and I asked), nor did I ever receive any information from DVC about it. Was that a direct quote...or a paraphrase...or something else? You should have requested that "promise" in writing - especially since you claim to have heard it every year thru '95 or '96.

 

[Dean]

Doc, I have heard this from a number of people including a very good friend who was a charter member. The story is always the same and the words are usually identical if not very close "substantually equivilent replacement program". True it was not in writing but being verbal, in and of itself, does not make the issue unenforceable. The problem with enforcing verbal contracts is documentation and that's where having it in writing would come in. We all know DVC would not have altered the contract by adding this in. I am though a little surprised we haven't seen some savvy member from early on go after Disney on this one, not that I personally would feel it was worth it even if I were the wronged party.

What I do know for certain is that when I took the tour, I was mislead. Whether it was intentional or not is a question but I believe it was. DVC offered to repurchase my contract including closing costs in spite of the fact I ended up buying resale. When I said I'd keep it, they offered free tickets which I accepted. To me this would be a pretty big admission of wrong doing. Frankly, I was going to accept their offer to repurchase but my wife was set on DVC. I'm glad I listened to her as my purchase of a second contract a few years later would attest.

 

[WebmasterDoc]

While I can beleive that a replacement program that "members will be happy with" could have been stated by some DVC guides, the replacement offered was and is the 10% discount, which is a larger discount than offered to DC members and is only available for the LOS/UMP- which is what the free passes were. The fact that not everyone is "happy" with this replacement seems to be the crux of the issue.

I would think an argument could be made that the free pass program was replaced with a discount on the same type of pass- larger than what is available thru other discount programs. In this case the word "substantial" could be construed as the 10% discount and the word "equivalent" construed as the same pass type. AP's and Hoppers were never part of the DVC program- only LOS. Expecting a discount on those passes doesn't really meet the "equivalent" issue.

In the last few years, I have seen the reported promise take a variety of forms. Originally, the phrase quoted on this site was that there would be a "replacement" for the program. The "substantially equivalent" notation has been added more recently. Since no one has any written material for reference, memory of the exact phrase can be easily modified by suggestive comment. Now, the "substantially equivalent" portion seems to have become the exact quote- while 3 years ago it was never mentioned.

I am also surprised that no one has apparently pursued this issue with DVC, since there seem to be so many who were supposedly made this "promise".

 

[PKS44]

Why does Disney have DVC? To make money.
How is it that we can save money on accomodations and Disney makes money? By getting the money up front Disney gets present money for future accomodations and a guarantee of maintence of the property as well by the members.
In the long run do DVC members or Disney come out ahead financially? Well, who knows? But the unappreciated part of the DVC deal is that by giving this possible discount on accomodations Disney gets you into the parks more than you might otherwise go...you might otherwise spend those vacation dollars elsewhere...So, in a sense, DVC IS the DISCOUNT-the thing offered at less than they might be able to charge if they just booked the rooms yearly at whatever rates the market might bear-you and I snapped at the discount and Disney figures while we are chewing on our "discounted" appetizer we will spring for the full priced entree (the parks) DVC is not free like some of these offers but it is thought to be a program that "saves" us money...

Paul

 

[Dean]

Doc, I know I've mentioned it several times over the years and am certain I used the exact wording or an EXTREMELY close version in EVERY case. Since I wasn't there and didn't get that "promise", that's all I can say. At least 2 of the members I've heard this from don't participate in this site or any other similar BBS or at least didn't at the time and I know for certain that one still doesn't. As for the 10% LOS passes being a substantially equivilent replacement, I wouldn't agree but I guess one could make that arguement.

I think the real question is did it happen and I am convinced it did. The fact that not everyone was told this, that it hasn't been challenged legally and that no one can produce documentation doesn't make the person that reports it wrong or a liar. It seems clear you don't believe it happened and that those that report it are mistaken or lying. That is you prerogative. Making a legal case is another matter.

 

[WebmasterDoc]

It seems clear you don't believe it happened and that those that report it are mistaken or lying.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm sure some people were told there would be a relacement program of some kind. I happen to believe that the 10% UMP program may be that replacement. Obviously others don't agree. (The 10% discount is what was offered when the pass program was discontinued in '95.)

My comments about the wording used are a reference to the statements made in posts on this site which have evolved into the current "quote". When the comments were mentioned in 1998- when I began reading them on this forum- there was never any mention of "substantially equivalent". That phrase has become a more recent addition to the "quote". I'm sure you know others who were told "exactly" that. My only knowledge of this "promise" is what has been reported here and that has changed with time.

The assertion that some posters know people who were told "substantial equivalent" by different DVC guides would suggest an effort by DVC to deceptively push that concept. In my experience with DVC since 1993, I have spoken with many DVC guides and representatives and have never heard any suggestion of a replacement- substantial or otherwise. The only place I have seen any mention of it is by a few on this forum. The fact that those few keep reliving their experience from 5 or more years ago without addressing it with DVC directly is where my concern really exists.

If it's that great an issue to those who feel they were promised something they didn't receive, why not put DVC to the task and demand an explanation or restitution instead of touting it as an example of some widespread wrongdoing in the DVC program?

 

[Richyams]

I think that its a good idea to temper our enthusiam for the DVC program with some reality.

DVC sales has a long history of lies and misrepresentations about their product.

Occuapncy limits

Using VB or HH points for anything you want at WDW DVC resorts

Pass program replacement

While I think DVC is a great deal and I am glad I joined, it hasn't blinded me to the fact that they are using deceptive sales techniques.

 

[Dean]

Doc, I'm sorry, must have misunderstood what you were typing. LOL. If you've read my posts on the subject over the last 3 years, you would have seen the wording I quote at least 2 to 2.5 years ago, you must have missed them. I'm actually quoting my friend who I mentioned and still communicate with. Since it's not me that was told this incorrectly, I am only reporting what I've heard and believe, for what it's worth. I personally don't see the 10% discount on LOS passes as much of a savings but I guess that's because I don't see that type of pass as that useful either.

I guess the fact there's been no legal action doesn't say too much as anyone who would be in a position to bring legal action would also know it would likely be a losing proposition to prove this contention without a video, audio or written record or without a DVD admission. And if there were major rumblings short of actually filing a law suit, we would never have heard about it.

To my recollection, this thread may be the first time I've even mentioned the misrepresentation I experienced and I'm fairly certain it's the first time I've mentioned that DVC offered to buy my resale back at full price (what I paid) and gave me free tickets when I declined. I've always said that DVC sales reps were tops in their field, the trouble is that when you lie with dogs, you get up with fleas. I think for the most part they are honest, low preasure and straightforward. That's not saying they all have been over the years plus even the best might bend slightly if they sense a sale will depend on it. Anyone that's been to a high preasure sales presentation should appreciate the DVC sale reps, that doesn't make them saints. It's kind of like saying you're an honest used car salesman. LOL.

Happy Holidays.

 

[PamOKW]

I don't see the LOS as a replacement. My memory is that it was available in conjunction with the free pass program (since we only had half the possible occupants covered). At the time of purchase, I was given the impression that the pass program was part of the Disney Vacation Club and that it would have a replacement/continuation of some sort. That may have been the honest impression of my guide. Maybe they thought the passes were necessary to make the sales. When they discovered this was not the case, passes and discounts no longer were important.

I know there is justification for wanting a pass program but at this point I feel it's just wasted aggravation. We have to deal with what is, not what would like it to be.

 

[Mojomanny]

I also think it is important to point out that many of the DVCers' who are looking for more are probably not of the more senior vintage (bought in the early years) and that many may not have been promised more by their rep.

The other fact is that a promise, by any salesperson, is only worth the paper it is written on. If it is not in writing, it did not happen, since it cannot be proved.