Abortion thread

[totalia]

Man, I know I am going to regret getting into this, and I usually just lurk on debate threads, but here I am posting in spite of my better judgment. I've already donned the flame-proof suit

I would like to address the two areas that this thread has focused on:
1. Rape
2. Mother's life in danger

1. Rape is a terrible thing. Those who belief that life begins at conception, however, cannot get past the realization that killing the baby is only another terrible thing. I can certainly see where those who do not belive that life begins at conception would disagree. And before you ask, yes if I became pregnant because of rape, I would have the baby. I could not take a life. (And yes, I am pro-life and anti-death penalty.)

2. Mother's life in danger, the medical necessity to save one life by ending another, gets me into territory that becomes an issue of self-defense. The mother has a right to save her own life.

For those interested, here is a link to the award winning Frontline episode that will break your heart, whather you are pro-life or pro-choice:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/twenty/watch/abortion.html

Well put. Though I must disagree with you on the issue of rape.

 

[DemonLlama]

But that is between the woman and her conscience.

Yes, a heated topic. Everyone fervently believes they are right. Maybe we should do what is right for us and let others live their lives as they choose. If you don't want to have an abortion, fine. But don't make the decision for others.

Forgot I wanted to ask about this. I used to think the same thing, but the more I considered it, believing that life begins at conception, the less I was able to buy into it. We don't allow women to kill their children and leave it to her conscience, and we don't stay out of it to let them lives their lives as they choose because that would be making a decision for others. The abortion makes the decision for a baby, who is an "other." Having said all that, here is the question: am I alone in this thinking?

This, of course, is why the subject is never discussed without flames, the divide is too deep between those who see the fetus as life and those who believe life begins at some other, seemingly vague, time.

 

[Bichon Barb]

I was going to stay out of this one too, but after reading so many opinions on when people think it's okay for a woman to have an abortion, I thought I'd join in.

I don't think it's up to anyone else but the pregnant woman to decide if her situation is "worthy" of an abortion.

One thing I don't understand is pro lifers who are so adamant about saving the embryo/fetus, except in the case of a rape. In other words, why do you feel it is acceptable to abort an embryo/fetus which was conceived by rape. Is that fetus less than a fetus conceived consentually?

 

[totalia]

I've never said that the fetus isn't alive. But it isn't a viable life until it can live no longer attached to its mother. People may hate it when I say this, but until a fetus can live on its own, its mostly a parasite. *dons her flame retardent suit*

What do you think must take presidence? Without the parents, there are no children. If a parent will die because they are pregnant (thus killing them both), the parent must come first.

 

[lulu71]

Not a pitbull, auntpolly....More like one of those little rat dog terriers...You know, the ones that yipyipyip all the friggin' time

Hey now...you see me over on the left with the stupid minnie ears...I'm a rat terrier...you got something you wanna say to me??

LOL, you're right...they do yipyipyip all the friggin' time.

OK, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

 

[tiggersmom2]

I was going to stay out of this one too, but after reading so many opinions on when people think it's okay for a woman to have an abortion, I thought I'd join in.

I don't think it's up to anyone else but the pregnant woman to decide if her situation is "worthy" of an abortion.

One thing I don't understand is pro lifers who are so adamant about saving the embryo/fetus, except in the case of a rape. In other words, why do you feel it is acceptable to abort an embryo/fetus which was conceived by rape. Is that fetus less than a fetus conceived consentually?

Good question.

FWIW - I am pro- choice. Personally I would never have an abortion (obviously, I had my first son at 17) but I will fight like hell for YOUR (general your) right to have an abortion.

 

[shortbun]

This thread isn't closed yet?

 

[chobie]

Forgot I wanted to ask about this. I used to think the same thing, but the more I considered it, believing that life begins at conception, the less I was able to buy into it. We don't allow women to kill their children and leave it to her conscience, and we don't stay out of it to let them lives their lives as they choose because that would be making a decision for others. The abortion makes the decision for a baby, who is an "other." Having said all that, here is the question: am I alone in this thinking?

This, of course, is why the subject is never discussed without flames, the divide is too deep between those who see the fetus as life and those who believe life begins at some other, seemingly vague, time.

But that's just it, it is a BELIEF that life begins at conception not a fact. It is a belief, that except for in rare instances, stems from one's choice of religion. That is why we do currently and should continue to stay out of this decision for others.

 

[MidgeD79]

I am pro-choice. I found out in 1986 at 24 weeks gestation that the baby had little to brain and lugs. The doctor gave us the option of termination on to continue. I choose to continue. I delivered Rebekah at 37 weeks weighing 6.8 pounds.She lived for 14 hours. Our life insurance refused to recognize life until the child passes its 15 day of life (check out your insurance) so we had to pay for the funeral as donating the body was not a choice for us. When I got pregnant 8 years later I was so scared. The pregnancy crisis center that I went to for a free test talked to me I told them my concerns. They told me to have the baby no matter what and that there were people who would help. I responded with where are these people to help me with my 10 year-old ds with spina bifida. Right to life talk the talk but where are they to help with the living?

 

[DemonLlama]

But that's just it, it is a BELIEF that life begins at conception not a fact. It is a belief, that except for in rare instances, stems from one's choice of religion. That is why we do currently and should continue to stay out of this decision for others.

There is no established fact about when life begins. In this case, every position is currently a matter of belief. And staying out of it doesn't get to the problem. We hold the collective belief that murder is morally unacceptable in society, so if the question of life's beginning is not settled, is it not valid to be concerned about ignoring the right to life of an unborn child?

 

[krystyana]

Hi all....I'm very impressed that this thread has remained so civil....people tend to get crazed over much less inflamatory subjects here sometimes.....I am very much pro-choice. I know that alot of people have focused on when it is acceptable and when it is not, but ultimately I believe it is a personal decision. I have a wonderful son and would gladly give my life for him. I can also think of many reasons why the choice needs to be there and should remain. I was given up for adoption as a child and am very grateful to my mother for giving me life, but I know she has been as haunted by the decision to give me up as if she had chosen other options. No choices involving this subject are easy and i don't think it is one people tend to take lightly. Just my opinions.

 

[chobie]

There is no established fact about when life begins. In this case, every position is currently a matter of belief. And staying out of it doesn't get to the problem. We hold the collective belief that murder is morally unacceptable in society, so if the question of life's beginning is not settled, is it not valid to be concerned about ignoring the right to life of an unborn child?

It's a valid quesiton. I just believe that since as long as the fetus is dependent on the woman's body for life, not vialbe outside the womb, then it is the mothers choice. I do not believe life begins at conception but those that do can choose not to have an abortion.

 

[auntpolly]

Maybe I should put on that famous fire proof suit before saying this, but I think it's really nice to have a civil, positive discussion about this <i>just us women</i> for a change.

Not that they (men) have no say in it -- just that, I always ruffle more when a guy is telling me what to do with my body more than a discussion about right and wrong with women.

I'm just saying, this is nice.

 

[tiggersmom2]

Maybe I should put on that famous fire proof suit before saying this, but I think it's really nice to have a civil, positive discussion about this <i>just us women</i> for a change.

Not that they have no say in it -- just that, I always ruffle more when a guy is telling me what to do with my body more than a discussion about right and wrong with women.

I'm just saying, this is nice.

ITA!!!!!

 

[Bichon Barb]

ITA!!!!!

Ditto!

 

[DemonLlama]

It's a valid quesiton. I just believe that since as long as the fetus is dependent on the woman's body for life, not vialbe outside the womb, then it is the mothers choice. I do not believe life begins at conception but those that do can choose not to have an abortion.

The viability issue, for me, is a lot like intensive care. I can't unhook my loved one from a breathing machine or feeding tube, especially if I know in a pretty short amount of time they will be fine breathing and eating on their own.

Thanks for not flaming me! I, too am appreciative of the civil nature of this discussion!

 

[chobie]

The viability issue, for me, is a lot like intensive care. I can't unhook my loved one from a breathing machine or feeding tube, especially if I know in a pretty short amount of time they will be fine breathing and eating on their own.

Thanks for not flaming me! I, too am appreciative of the civil nature of this discussion!

The difference for me is that your loved one may be hooked up to a machine, but they are not hooked up to you. You can't force someone to give you their kidney even if you need to live, so you should not be able to force someone to gestate a fetus until it is viable. My opinion anyway. It is nice to discuss an emotional issue without name-calling isn't it?

 

[TheBellhop]

I'm stupid. I actually came back.

It may be no choice for the baby but you know what? Sometimes its the best choice for the mother and the baby.

Tell me what you think my friend should have done in her situation please. It really was a life or death situation for them both. There was no, no treatment and both would live.

:: sigh :: Once again, like we have ALL said, there are circumstances. Believe it or not, I think what your friend did was right.

 

[katerkat]

It's a valid quesiton. I just believe that since as long as the fetus is dependent on the woman's body for life, not vialbe outside the womb, then it is the mothers choice. I do not believe life begins at conception but those that do can choose not to have an abortion.

But the age of viability changes - I think that's what bothers me. (Yes, I believe life begins at conception. Bear with me.) A gal in my online pregnancy group had her son at 25 weeks gestation. He'll be going home in two weeks with no apparent problems. A decade or so ago, he would have no hope being born at that age. A decade from now, we may be able to save babies born at 15 weeks gestation. Who knows?

 

[chobie]

Pro-Choice is no choice for the baby.

Actually, that is what you said. Not exactly leaving any room for life-threatening emergencies or rape. I assume that sigh was because you could not possibly imagine what a heart-wrenching decision that must have been for the poster's Friend.