A threat from Bin Laden (possible debate)

[CapeCodTenor]

I completely agree with you. Which is also why I am against tapping phone lines without a systems of check and balances. I don't trust the government to control the situation, I don't trust then to not let money run out all over the place. And I don't think the government will care if I am guilty or innocent without those systems of checks and balances.

The same thing for Social Security (I'm 26 and have the same fear) - I'm not big on Social Security controlling my money because I don't trust the govenrment with it.

Faith in the government is not always a good thing - I especially think so when the government takes supposively illegal actions against it's own citizens.

~Amanda

I'm going to admit to something...I thought of not saying anything, considering I started the thread and gave the response I did. But I'm in conflict. I love being American. I love the freedoms we have and enjoy, and all the rights that go along with it, but I'm finding myself not caring that the gov. is wire tapping phone calls to and from the middle east. This would usually bother me...but it's not. I chalk it up to fighting terrorism, hoping and praying that that's all that it's being used for. I don't want to live in a police state where my ever action is being watched...but in this situation I'm finding myself not caring. I just don't know anymore.

 

[Mom2be]

I'm going to admit to something...I thought of not saying anything, considering I started the thread and gave the response I did. But I'm in conflict. I love being American. I love the freedoms we have and enjoy, and all the rights that go along with it, but I'm finding myself not caring that the gov. is wire tapping phone calls to and from the middle east. This would usually bother me...but it's not. I chalk it up to fighting terrorism, hoping and praying that that's all that it's being used for. I don't want to live in a police state where my ever action is being watched...but in this situation I'm finding myself not caring. I just don't know anymore.

Don't feel bad for how you feel - it really is a normal response. I of course want to fight terrorism - but I'm not willing to do it at any cost. I have no problems with wire tapping - when they are done within the letter of the law. And that is where the confusion is. Many people who question the legallity of wiretapping are being accused of not wanting to protect this country. That is horse dung. I'm just not willing to let the rights of Americans be squandered due to fear. Our nation was founded on a bill of rights and has survived over 200 years because of the beliefs put forth in that document. I am not willing to chuck it out the window because of fear.

The issue is Legal vs. Illegal - Many of us would like the system of checks and balances between the 3 branches of government to be intack. No matter who is the President. If we start to squander our freedoms now how long before more and more are being taken in the name of "safety."

~Amanda

 

[Chicago526]

I'm going to admit to something...I thought of not saying anything, considering I started the thread and gave the response I did. But I'm in conflict. I love being American. I love the freedoms we have and enjoy, and all the rights that go along with it, but I'm finding myself not caring that the gov. is wire tapping phone calls to and from the middle east. This would usually bother me...but it's not. I chalk it up to fighting terrorism, hoping and praying that that's all that it's being used for. I don't want to live in a police state where my ever action is being watched...but in this situation I'm finding myself not caring. I just don't know anymore.

Fair enough, you're being honest. But try looking at it this way:

Replace the word "terrorist" with "mafia" or "drug cartel". The government wants warrent-less wire taps to hunt the "mafia" or to hunt "drug cartels". For the mafia, the focus on Americans that are desended from Itailians, Rusians, and Asians. For the drug cartel, they focus on Americans that are from Central and South America. Is that okay?

 

[Miss Jasmine]

The fact that we're even debating whether the American government should have the right to spy on its own citizens without reason is pretty shocking, if you stop to think about it.

You are so right.

 

[Miss Jasmine]

I'm going to admit to something...I thought of not saying anything, considering I started the thread and gave the response I did. But I'm in conflict. I love being American. I love the freedoms we have and enjoy, and all the rights that go along with it, but I'm finding myself not caring that the gov. is wire tapping phone calls to and from the middle east. This would usually bother me...but it's not. I chalk it up to fighting terrorism, hoping and praying that that's all that it's being used for. I don't want to live in a police state where my ever action is being watched...but in this situation I'm finding myself not caring. I just don't know anymore.

It's not just phone calls to the middle east. Terrorist cells are spread across the world. So that means certain types of people are being targeted and that is wrong, even in the name of national security. Why should innocent people be subjected to governmental intrusions? The government can make the case. How would you feel if those same people had their houses, cars, and/or businesses illegally searched? A wire tap is nearly the same thing.

 

[JCJRSmith]

Theyre looking for child-porn offenders.

Actually, no, they aren't. When Ashcroft was the AG, he and his staff put together a proposal, which eventually was signed into law, designed to make it more difficult for children to access porn on the internet. Not "child pornography" but "children accessing pornography." The Supreme Court shot that law down. Here is a link to the article: Google Story

 

[JCJRSmith]

If youre so disgusted with everything this country is doing, and how it's run, why are you here?

I was wondering when someone would bring up the old "America - Love it or Leave it" argument. One of the great things about the USA - if one does not love the way things are in this country, one has the right to work within the system in an attempt to change the way things are done. In the meantime, they have the right to voice their opinion about the way things should be run.

 

[Judge Smails]

See - thats where youre wrong. I dont have any fear, as I have confidence in and respect for my goverment and military.

I have *concern* that nay-sayers, such as yourself, are attempting to undermine our gov't and military with *fluff* rec'vd from the sources you quote - which in turn will impede the mission at hand.

That "Fluff" is called the Constitution. In reality your position supports ignoring the Constitution. Rather un American.

 

[Judge Smails]

I was wondering when someone would bring up the old "America - Love it or Leave it" argument. One of the great things about the USA - if one does not love the way things are in this country, one has the right to work within the system in an attempt to change the way things are done. In the meantime, they have the right to voice their opinion about the way things should be run.

Smacks of fascism doesn't it?

 

[mrsltg]

There is a secret court, right there for easy use, that can, will, and has issued subpoenas for just such cases. There is no reason at all to avoid that court unless you were trying to do something that you knew you could not get a subpoena for.

As for your "logic" that it will somehow stop a terrorist attack...yes, it may. And stopping all gun sales will stop gun deaths...and stopping all alcohol sales will stop drunk driving...and stopping all free speech will stop all kinds of nasty things from slander to hate speech to riot incitement.

So...just how many of your rights are you willing to give up before you stop cowering in fear of the .00000001% chance that you could die in a terrorist attack ?

Oh for the love of Bob... I agree with you 100%. The apocolypse must be near...

Erin

 

[momof2inPA]

The wire taps without court order are not necessary and a violation of our rights, and I'm not afraid of Bin Laden, the Boogeyman, Bird Flu, or the Big Bad Wolf. If you all are willing to give up your rights, the terrorists have won.

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

Regardless of these fully-justified wiretaps, I don't feel I've given up any of my rights. Nope, the terrorists have not defeated me.

 

[Nancy]

I'm going to admit to something...I thought of not saying anything, considering I started the thread and gave the response I did. But I'm in conflict. I love being American. I love the freedoms we have and enjoy, and all the rights that go along with it, but I'm finding myself not caring that the gov. is wire tapping phone calls to and from the middle east. This would usually bother me...but it's not. I chalk it up to fighting terrorism, hoping and praying that that's all that it's being used for. I don't want to live in a police state where my ever action is being watched...but in this situation I'm finding myself not caring. I just don't know anymore.

I haven't responded in a while because I really didn't like the tone that was starting to develope, ( al little too much nastiness for me, I tend to shy away from that stuff, I don't like conflict) but I have to say I agree with you. I guess my position comes from the fact that we know Bush will not be in office another term after this one and I really don't think that even he can destroy our entire constitution in that time frame. Now if he could run and have another 4 years....well then I might feel different about it. So right now I'm saying I don't care about the wire tapping, I think it's really a very minor thing in the overall grand scheme of things, and I am not willing to get in an uproar over what could potentially happen, but we have no way of knowing will ever happen. All that said, that doesn't mean I will always feel that way, I have been known to change my mind on these things.


edited because I don't know how to spell nastiness, it was originally nastiimess

 

[Puffy2]

WHAT do you have to hide that youre so worried about??? What will they use, when they listen to your phone calls, against you, inappropriately???

I have to admit that probably noone in the Bush Administration is the least bit interested in what your phone calls entail, ...or mine, that's not the problem here - think, think, think...whose phone calls would they be interested in? Their politcal enemies? Corporations that don't support their agenda? Journalists? Religious figures who dare to preach a sermon or two against their platform? Government employees who dare to speak out against any internal policy?

Without the warrents, they could be tapping ANYONE for ANY REASON they want. It's the making of a dictatorship (under the guise of democracy).

 

[richiebaseball]

I have to admit that probably noone in the Bush Administration is the least bit interested in what your phone calls entail, ...or mine, that's not the problem here - think, think, think...whose phone calls would they be interested in? Their politcal enemies? Corporations that don't support their agenda? Journalists? Religious figures who dare to preach a sermon or two against their platform? Government employees who dare to speak out against any internal policy?

Do you ever tire of this chicken little dance? You complain about this administrations "politics of fear" and yet you constantly spout all this fear crap too.

You must get dizzy from all the spinning.

As for the national healthcare and social security red herring, it's exactly that, a red herring. It's not relevant to the discussion. The argument isn't whether the federal government has the duty to protect its citizenry from enemies foreign and domestic, clearly it does. The argument is whether this administration (and indeed others) has went beyond the scope allowed by law. To attempt to turn this into an argument that anyone that supports the wiretapping must also support the government providing all of our health care and taking care of our retirement is clearly disingenuous.

Although the opposite does indeed hold my opinion. I don't want the government wiretapping all willy-nilly, I don't want the government to handle my personal healthcare, and I don't want the government to handle my retirement money.

Just an opinion though.

 

[Planogirl]

I'm going to admit to something...I thought of not saying anything, considering I started the thread and gave the response I did. But I'm in conflict. I love being American. I love the freedoms we have and enjoy, and all the rights that go along with it, but I'm finding myself not caring that the gov. is wire tapping phone calls to and from the middle east. This would usually bother me...but it's not. I chalk it up to fighting terrorism, hoping and praying that that's all that it's being used for. I don't want to live in a police state where my ever action is being watched...but in this situation I'm finding myself not caring. I just don't know anymore.

I can respect your uncertaintly. I suspect that many of us feel that way at least a little. This terrorism business is a hard thing to deal with.

However, in my view, our government should NEVER break the law no matter what happens. The government's responsibility is to uphold the law not pick and choose which laws are OK and which aren't in the name of fighting terrorism. Every law is sacred and should be applied to every citizen regardless of circumstances. JMO.