A sad choice for my friend

[kellyg403]

I think in any case, including Giffords's, all parties will have to do what is best for the family. The reality is we don't even know if she will remember she has a husband, we don't know if she will have the ability to improve past a certain point, we don't know if they have had the conversation about what each person would expect the other to do in this situation etc. It takes a very strong person to be able to give and give and get no love/intimacy in return to continue to do that forever. As humans, we have to have one to have the other in most cases. Today, I would imagine he plans on being there but what if in 5 years, with no hope she will even remember who he is, they are literally 'acquaintances'.

In the 'in sickness and health' part, if we have are to judge what that means..all sickness must be part, we can't make exclusions for one type of 'sick' and not for others. The shooter for example is very ill. What if he was married, had no children, will be locked up in a hopefully a hospital for his lasting days. He is 22, lets say his wife is 22...would you expect her to keep her 'in sickness and health' vows and remain for the rest of her life visiting her husband, in a hospital with very little chance of getting out because he can not function in society? We don't know what his chances are, even medicated of being a functional member of society. He will cause her no harm because he is locked up. He is ill. So, should she keep her vows and stay married knowing that both of their life expectancies could be very long?

Its so hard to know what I personally would do in either situation. I am older, I would expect I would stand by my husband and do all the things I can as his wife.

Kelly

 

[ElizabethB]

Early on-set Alzheimer's can be a similar tragedy. Here is how a CBS reporter dealt with it when his wife was diagnosed.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/06/20/sunday/main6600364.shtml

 

[NikitaZee]

OP, your friend has a very hard decision. Sometimes the hardest decisions a person makes are the right ones for them. I, personally, don't know what I would do. I would think in the beginning it would be for life, but I can see where the loneliness and everything would be consuming and overwhelming. I would never want another person or myself to feel that way.

My friend's husband's first wife had a blood clot from taking birth control pills when they were in their early 30's. He was left to care for his 2 young children at the ages of 3/4 along with having a military career. Around the ten year mark he met my friend and for several years they lived together before he actually divorced and married her. The ex-wife is awake and cared for. When she sees her children, now grown with children of their own, thinks her grandchildren are her children. She still believes that she is married to their dad, no one has told her differently and their dad still visits mom to check on her. He provides money for the care she is receiving as well as things she needs. He has not abandoned her. There will never be an emotional attachment or marital life for them ever again, but he does deserve to be happy. Her family does not speak to him because of his decision and sometimes makes it hard for him to do what he feels is the right thing. They take him off the visitors list, they call the grown children and tell them he is at fault for her condition. Its really uncalled for. The woman thinks they are married and no one has told her they aren't. She is not mentally able to understand any of it. As long as he visits she is happy to see him and he is happy to do it. So, I think in the end it should be everyone is happy, however it works for your family. These kids are happy their dad met and married their friend. They often say they are glad because it was really hard for them when they were younger. They would just tell people they didn't have a mom. My friend came in and fed them and helped them when they were sick, she babysits and loves her grandbabies. For this family doing it this way was the right way.

Kelly

Your friend's husband's circumstances sound very similar to my friend's, particularly the part about the family making it difficult. I have a feeling that if she does divorce him, her situation will be so much like your friend's in every regard.

OK if so many think she should leave does that mean you feel the same way about the Congresswoman that was just shot? They are showing her husband sitting by her bed holding her hand. There is a very good chance she will not be the same woman she was before the shooting and it can vary from just a bit to worse than the man we are speaking about in this thread.

So when does it become OK for him to leave? Should he go now? or what year is the magic year? Is it when he gets tired of visiting?


I'm still shocked that the man in this thread is in a home with all he can do for himself, I'm surprised it is being paid for. I also feel it is sad because he does know them and does recognize them. Also for all who say she will still visit him, maybe she will or maybe she won't but I would be willing to bet a very large sum of money it won't be as frequently and will get less and less very rapidly when she gets a boyfriend. Go to any nursing home and see how often people who have been there a long time have visitors. People get busy and it is easy to put off.

Please don't think that my friend's husband is an almost capable adult who is in a nursing home on the government's dime because his wife does not want to care for him at home. That couldn't be further from the truth. He cannot live independently; when I indicated earlier that he has the mentality of a pre-teen, it is like a mentally impaired pre-teen. He has other cognitive issues as well. Just because he can walk and talk and feed himself doesn't mean he is able to leave the nursing home. I suppose, if they were wealthy, he could have round-the-clock care at home - but then, everyone would choose that option if they could and no one would ever need go into a nursing home. It is very sad.

 

[snowywhite89]

Boy howdy is this true! I worked in a nursing home as part of my nurses training. My heart broke for so many residents who had no one visiting them. I knew many of their families as we live in a small town and couldn't believe the way they abandoned their "loved ones".



My husband and I discussed this last night as a result of this thread. We both agreed that we would not feel forced but would stay with each other out of love.

 

[DizBelle]

Just because you want a way out from the start does not mean we all do.

But your post said that if your DH broke his vows first then it's ok for you to break yours. It looks like you were the one that was looking for a way out of your vows.

 

[snowywhite89]

But your post said that if your DH broke his vows first then it's ok for you to break yours. It looks like you were the one that was looking for a way out of your vows.

You need to read better.

 

[Agri]

I'm still shocked that the man in this thread is in a home with all he can do for himself, I'm surprised it is being paid for. I also feel it is sad because he does know them and does recognize them. Also for all who say she will still visit him, maybe she will or maybe she won't but I would be willing to bet a very large sum of money it won't be as frequently and will get less and less very rapidly when she gets a boyfriend. Go to any nursing home and see how often people who have been there a long time have visitors. People get busy and it is easy to put off.

It's already been said that the wife tried to get him released to her, but the doctor would not let her take him home because he has violent temper fits. There are probably other factors as well, but the important fact is that the wife has tried to bring him home but the doctors would not let her.

This has been going on for four years already and she has not stopped visiting him.

I really do not understand why people think she will visit him less just because she has a boyfriend. Her husband is no longer in a husband/wife or bf/gf type relationship with her, so a new boyfriend would *not* be taking his place. It's like saying she'd stop visiting because she decided to take up knitting or a weekly canasta game.

I would imagine that the controlling factor in her visits will be how *his* family handles things as they are not being supportive of her whatsoever.

 

[Ember]

Wow. That was a hard thread to read. I agree 100% with the post that says never say never. It's easy to hide behind your marriage vows when it's not you making the choice.

Out of interest, I went back and read my marriage ceremony. I vowed the following:

I ______ take you ______ / to be my husband / from this time onward. / To join with you / and to share all that is to come. / to be faithful and honest / to give and to receive / to speak and to listen / to inspire and to respond. / A commitment made in love / kept in faith / and eternally made new.

My husband is not just my sex monkey, he is my life's companion. He is there to support me when life gets hard, to snuggle into when I need to cry, to hold my hand when I have to get a needle (which I'm terrified of). We spend hours talking about everything under the sun. He's my sanctuary and my home. I love my friends and family, but they could never provide me emotionally with what my husband does.

To lose him, to have his brain damaged so that he was no longer him is something I cannot fathom. He is a scientist, a thinker, a philosopher. I know the one thing that truly scares him is the thought of losing his mental capacities. And I know, beyond a doubt, that my happiness is what's most important to him. He wouldn't want me to spend my life alone, without the companionship of a partner. We've talked about it. And I feel exactly the same way. I'd want him to move on and be happy, and I'd want him to do so without guilt or pain or agony over his choice.

"Yet if you should forget me for a while
And afterwards remember, do not grieve:
For if the darkness and corruption leave
A vestige of the thoughts that once I had,
Better by far you should forget and smile
Than that you should remember and be sad."

​

Brain damage may not be death, but it's awfully close. You've lost the person, and they aren't coming back. And in their place is a stranger.

 

[DizBelle]

You need to read better.

Ok, I reread your post. I think I did misunderstand. It reads like you would adhere to your vows and stay in an abusive relationship (his affairs and his drinking and his violence) as long as he didn't leave. I don't understand why anyone would do this though.

 

[NikitaZee]

Wow. That was a hard thread to read. I agree 100% with the post that says never say never. It's easy to hide behind your marriage vows when it's not you making the choice.

Out of interest, I went back and read my marriage ceremony. I vowed the following:

I ______ take you ______ / to be my husband / from this time onward. / To join with you / and to share all that is to come. / to be faithful and honest / to give and to receive / to speak and to listen / to inspire and to respond. / A commitment made in love / kept in faith / and eternally made new.

My husband is not just my sex monkey, he is my life's companion. He is there to support me when life gets hard, to snuggle into when I need to cry, to hold my hand when I have to get a needle (which I'm terrified of). We spend hours talking about everything under the sun. He's my sanctuary and my home. I love my friends and family, but they could never provide me emotionally with what my husband does.

To lose him, to have his brain damaged so that he was no longer him is something I cannot fathom. He is a scientist, a thinker, a philosopher. I know the one thing that truly scares him is the thought of losing his mental capacities. And I know, beyond a doubt, that my happiness is what's most important to him. He wouldn't want me to spend my life alone, without the companionship of a partner. We've talked about it. And I feel exactly the same way. I'd want him to move on and be happy, and I'd want him to do so without guilt or pain or agony over his choice.

"Yet if you should forget me for a while
And afterwards remember, do not grieve:
For if the darkness and corruption leave
A vestige of the thoughts that once I had,
Better by far you should forget and smile
Than that you should remember and be sad."

​

Brain damage may not be death, but it's awfully close. You've lost the person, and they aren't coming back. And in their place is a stranger.

Wow this post brought a tear to my eye - after I cracked up at the 'sex monkey' comment!

 

[shortbun]

There's a lot of discussion about abandoning loved ones in nursing homes. That's not the issue here. The issue is: should a woman in her 30's never feel the love of a man again because her husband suffered an altering medical problem. I think it's too much to ask. She should be allowed to move on romantically and find a man to be her soft place to land, her partner in life as a mature person. I would judge her on another plane if she abandoned the man she's married to now and left him, forgotten, in a nursing home. It's not the same thing. I don't think we can assume she's going to do that at all. It doesn't have to be that way. People who DO stay married abandon their spouses all the time; marriage is not the magic ticket to emotional attachment. This woman is entitled to mature, adult love.

 

[ccgirl]

You said it was a congenital condition. Are her daughters ok? Would she accept one of their husbands divorcing them if something similar happened to one of them? What an awful prospect. I would have no judgement of her actions.

This is a good point. Have the children been tested? What would happen if this happened to one of the daughter's? Would she adopt another child that could fully function as a daughter? No, because we love our children unconditionally but, for some, the love for their spouse is not unconditional so it seems.

She says she wouldn't stop visiting him but she also said she would never leave him when she took her marriage vows.

I am sure this is a very difficult situation for her. As a friend, I would support her with whatever she decided. Best of luck to all those involved.

 

[Ember]

What would happen if this happened to one of the daughter's? Would she adopt another child that could fully function as a daughter? No, because we love our children unconditionally but, for some, the love for their spouse is not unconditional so it seems.

Wow.

 

[MickeyCrazedMom]

My question is this -

In all the years they were together (and it was obviously a long time, if they have a 17 year old child together), did they never, not ONCE, have the "What if..." conversation? ' What if something happened to me, if I died, would you want me to move on?' 'If I was in an accident, or in a vegetative state for the rest of my life, what would you do?' Don't all couples have this conversation???

It is amazing how many couples do not have this conversation. Last year at this time my husbands brother got very ill unexpectedly and decisions had to be made. His wife (together almost 20 years) has no idea what to do. She said they never discussed these things because they were young and it was depressing! She has absolutly no idea what he wanted in terms of life support and signed over decision making rights to my husband. When he passed, my husband and I made the funeral arrangements partially because she couldn't deal with it but partially because they had never discussed it and she was afraid to make the wrong choices. I just assumed that all couples had these discussions, but not so.

 

[ccgirl]

Ok, I reread your post. I think I did misunderstand. It reads like you would adhere to your vows and stay in an abusive relationship (his affairs and his drinking and his violence) as long as he didn't leave. I don't understand why anyone would do this though.

I hope you are not judging the other poster. I think people feel strongly on both sides. I happen to be a believer in keeping the marriage vows at all times. I realize not everyone takes the same marriage vows. A previous poster posted that hers did not include the for better or worse and in sickness and health. Mine did and I took them before God and I take them EXTREMELY seriously. If my DH breaks those vows, it does not give me an out. He is the one that has to go before God to explain why he broke the vows. That said, if someone decided to not keep their marriage vows I do not judge them. In fact, I have many friends and family members that chose not to keep theirs. That is their choice.

 

[Hannathy]

this is a good point. Have the children been tested? What would happen if this happened to one of the daughter's? Would she adopt another child that could fully function as a daughter? No, because we love our children unconditionally but, for some, the love for their spouse is not unconditional so it seems.

She says she wouldn't stop visiting him but she also said she would never leave him when she took her marriage vows.

I am sure this is a very difficult situation for her. As a friend, i would support her with whatever she decided. Best of luck to all those involved.

ita

 

[bethbuchall]

This is a good point. Have the children been tested? What would happen if this happened to one of the daughter's? Would she adopt another child that could fully function as a daughter? No, because we love our children unconditionally but, for some, the love for their spouse is not unconditional so it seems.

She says she wouldn't stop visiting him but she also said she would never leave him when she took her marriage vows.

I am sure this is a very difficult situation for her. As a friend, I would support her with whatever she decided. Best of luck to all those involved.

You honestly can't see that is a completely different point? She can still love this man unconditionally, but more as a child than as her husband. People have more than one child all the time. Does that mean the first is loved any less or is deficient in some way? No, because you can have that relationship with more than one child. It's completely different with a spouse, and this man can no longer be a spouse. The relationship that they now have would not have to be threatened by a new marriage, because it is completely different from a marriage.

 

[crusoe2]

I think what this really boils down to is whether or not the woman will truly continue to take care of her husband or will let the fact that they are no longer legally married be a way to gradually slide out of his life. Only she can truly answer that question. I certainly don't condone one spouse abandoning another in a situation like this. And as I said in my earlier post, this woman's actions thus far don't give me the impression that she will do that. But none of us can possibly know for sure what she will do.

So IMO as long as she continues to visit him, take the kids to see him, and look after his needs I don't think it's wrong for her to change their legal status so that she may once again have a helpmate in life and her children might have someone in their lives to fill the role of a father. Obviously their father can no longer do that. Moving on and welcoming a new person into their lives doesn't have to mean that they love their father less or that he will no longer be a part of their lives. But obviously his part in their lives has been drastically lessened from what it was meant to be and there is nothing the wife or kids can ever do to change that.

Try looking at it this way - from what the OP has described, the wife could divorce this man and maybe not even go back for visits and he would never know the difference. If he doesn't remember that his family is coming to visit on a certain day and doesn't anticipate that visit, how is he going to know the difference if they don't come? I'm not suggesting that his wife and family use that as an excuse to stop visiting but rather give it as an illustration of what they are coping with. If that is the reality - that even not going to visit anymore would not really affect him - then changing the legal status of their relationship certainly isn't going to register with him.

I find it really ironic that HE would be unaware that things have changed yet so many people think that the ones who ARE aware and are grieving for it are supposed to live half a life in order to spare his feelings.

 

[livie1205]

ITA


I would miss the intimacy, romance, laughing and the like with my DH not with any man. I would also hope the medical improvements in the future could fix his brain and he could come back.





If he has an affair or affairs then he broke the "forsaking all others" vow so HE broke our marriage vows.

I would not walk out just because of this be we would not be intimate, for health reasons, until he got a clear medical check and after we had been in counseling. If he did not want to stay I can't make him.

If he does not want to stop stepping out or work on our marriage then our marriage is over and HE was the one who broke our vows as I have forsaken all others.

Alcoholism or drug addiction are the same as above. If he won't give it up and get treatment then he has chosen to force my hand.

In all the above examples the DH could choose to change. The OP's friend's DH cannot choose to change, so the "in sickness" covers him but not the others.

sooo its ok as long as they break vows first? doesnt "in sickness and in health" cancel that out if he has a sex addiction? My point....cant pick and choose...I hope she is able to be happy in life....she should not have to be alone.

 

[livie1205]

My guess is that your vows were not "in sickness and in health, for better or worse unless you break them first and then all bets are off."

Your logic doesn't fly.

THANK YOU!! this was my point!!