A "is this a good college" thread for all college searchers...

[linnylu]

My junior dd is taking the SAT on Saturday. She took it her sophomore year and doesn't see a need to take it again. Hopefully she'll improve her math score. She may also retake the ACT in June after AP exams.

 

[Buckalew11]

Isn't the PSAT like a pre test of the SAT? I would have her do both ACT and SAT because different colleges look at different scores. DD's #1 choice looks at ACT scores. Actually, I think all her choices look at ACT scores. Sometimes kids do better on one kind of the tests than the other.

My nephew scored a 30 on his first ACT test. He took the ACT prep classes and his score went up to a 33! He grumbled about taking the course (thinking 30 was fine), but my DS and BIL insisted and it paid off. He's going to a great school and has a lot of help from the school and scholarships because of his score.

 

[golfgal]

PSAT/SAT: Unfortunately, DD doesn't do well on standardized testing (or at least as well as I would like her to do). What are your thoughts on PSATs? Also, any suggestions for SAT prep courses (particularly in the NJ area?) How often can they/should they take the SAT? PSAT in Sophomore year/SAT junior/senior year?

Our school has the top students take the PSAT and ACT as sophomores just for practice so they are familiar with the test styles. Our twins took them this past fall. Now we get boatloads of mail for colleges .

PSAT is really just for National Merit Scholar rankings/scholarships and aren't really college entrance exams. It is still worth taking because if they DO score well on them, that can mean extra money for college.

As far as prep classes go, we had DS18 take the test cold first to see what he got, he did pretty well so we had him do the ACT online prep on the ACT site ($20 for unlimited access for a year). We had him focus on his English because that was his low score area. He took the test again and brought that up enough so his super score ended up over 30 but the 28 he got the first go round was enough to get him a scholarship so he didn't take that again. Most schools around here prefer the ACT so he didn't take the SAT.

Isn't the PSAT like a pre test of the SAT? I would have her do both ACT and SAT because different colleges look at different scores. DD's #1 choice looks at ACT scores. Actually, I think all her choices look at ACT scores. Sometimes kids do better on one kind of the tests than the other.

My nephew scored a 30 on his first ACT test. He took the ACT prep classes and his score went up to a 33! He grumbled about taking the course (thinking 30 was fine), but my DS and BIL insisted and it paid off. He's going to a great school and has a lot of help from the school and scholarships because of his score.

I agree-have them take both because most schools will take the best of the two tests (and super score). Like I said above, the only thing that the PSAT is good for is getting mail from colleges and for National Merit qualification.

 

[tar heel]

The PSAT is good for something else, too -- it's a free practice test for the SAT.

 

[Green Tea]

Look at the acceptance information on any college website and you will see that they put MUCH more emphasis on ranking vs grades. ).

Many private prep schools do not rank. The admissions offices kind of have to figure it out on their own. If it is a popular feeder school, they just sort of know based on the gpa. If it is a kid from a place they have not dealt with before, they might need to do some digging. But many high school kids are applying unranked.

 

[kbeverina]

Look at the acceptance information on any college website and you will see that they put MUCH more emphasis on ranking vs grades. There is rampant grade inflation across the country and colleges know this. A class rank shows where a student falls among his peers much better then seeing a 4.7 on a GPA or that a 3.9 actually ranks you 20th in a class vs 2nd. Obviously they want to see both a good GPA and a good class rank-what they really want to see though, is a rigorous course schedule and descent grades in those classes (for the highly competitive schools).

Okay. I did look. Of the 10 schools my son applied to, only one mentioned class rank, and that was to say that 90% of their last accepted class fell in the top third of their high school classes. Every other website cited average GPAs and SATs/ACTs of admitted students.

So I said to myself, maybe my son's not smart enough, let me look at William and Mary.

From their website:

Class rank, if provided, can be helpful in determining a student's academic potential; approximately 80% of admitted students are in the top 10% of their high school graduating class.

Providing that information about percentage in the top 10% is about promoting the school to prospective students. I think in most cases when you're seeing this on a school's website, it's about PR, not about admissions requirements.

I think class rank becomes more important at the tippy top schools where they're trying to pick among the perfect and near-perfect scores, and they have the staff to devote to this type of in-depth analysis of each applicant, but that is not most schools as you stated. I don't think there's any evidence that most schools look more strongly at class rank vs GPA. I think it's as William and Mary stated--it can be helpful.

 

[Green Tea]

I wonder how that will work for us (class rank being imprtant compared to GPA)? DD is a homeschooler so there is no "class rank" (well, she's #1, lol ) I guess then they'll look at GPA and ACT scores (?) But even so, my GPA for her could be as off as a high schools...it all depends how I grade etc. But don't *worry*, I grade tough and show little mercy. Her GPA is probably not as high as it should be.

I do have a question about going into college as a second semester freshman or sophomore or higher...
does that effect college scholarship monies offered?

Some colleges will want to see SAT II scores for homeschooled students. Not all, but look at the entrance requirements of ones your child might be interested in early on. These can be taken at any time, and the right time could be after sophomore year course level work.

I like that.....she's #1

 

[Green Tea]

Just a note: PSAT only counts when taken as a Junior for National Merit qualification. They can take it other years, but it ONLY counts for NM when taken in the year before the final year of high school.

 

[kbeverina]

My dd asked to take the SAT in January and March (we started her tutor end of the summer) since she wanted to focus on her APs and finals in May/June.
If she took the first one in June, and her scores were not where she wanted them to be, she would take again in Sept or Oct (don't know the month) in Senior Year and that is something she wanted to fully avoid. Summer and senior year she wanted to just focus on essay(s), summer lab work at the private college where I work and interns with a dentist. She works in the winter as a coat check girl so no summer job. Most of her money she saves for the summer.

I would just suggest that if she's taking additional math classes, she might want to go ahead and take a fall test. My son's score went up several hundred points between March and October, and it was almost all in the more advanced questions of the math portion. He really did no other preparation other than to review what he'd gotten wrong on the first test.

 

[PrincessKsMom]

The PSAT is good for something else, too -- it's a free practice test for the SAT.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Maybe it can help get her over the nerves of taking the SAT. If she's done the PSAT she'll know what the test will be like and she'll also have a general idea of what she might score on the SAT. I'm trying to take the stigma of "OMG it's a standardized test " out of it for her. She also knows she doesn't always do well and also knows a good part of her future rides on how well she does. (Not too much pressure for the poor kid huh? )

Thank you everyone for your responses, suggestions and experiences. I have started looking at the websites suggested but there's so much, it's a little overwhelming.

 

[cruisnfamily]

I live in Staten Island and hired a private tutor that came highly recommended and we love. He travels to our home and to SI on the weekends from Queens. I opted for one-on-one tutoring, which my dd also requested.

You can take the SAT any year, but most take in Junior and some in Senior Year. You can take it as many times as you like but you should take no more than 3 times.

Most colleges super score but you don't want to sent 4-5 different tests. 2 is usually the norm, as long as your scores are in line with the schools you are looking at (collegeboard can help you lots here).

My dd asked to take the SAT in January and March (we started her tutor end of the summer) since she wanted to focus on her APs and finals in May/June.
If she took the first one in June, and her scores were not where she wanted them to be, she would take again in Sept or Oct (don't know the month) in Senior Year and that is something she wanted to fully avoid. Summer and senior year she wanted to just focus on essay(s), summer lab work at the private college where I work and interns with a dentist. She works in the winter as a coat check girl so no summer job. Most of her money she saves for the summer.

PrincessKmom, If you haven't already, go to collegeboard.com and start reading. Lots of helpful information. So is collegeconfidential.com.

Good luck to all of us and the kids!

Why do you say the things bolded above?

What's wrong with taking the tests multiple times?

 

[Buckalew11]

Some colleges will want to see SAT II scores for homeschooled students. Not all, but look at the entrance requirements of ones your child might be interested in early on. These can be taken at any time, and the right time could be after sophomore year course level work.

I like that.....she's #1

OK, duh moment for me...but what is the SAT II? I'm new to all this and I've not heard of this.

DD must take the ACT 3 times IF she is enrolled under the umbrella school she is with now. They require it instead of a standardized test every Spring from 10th -12th grade. She may finish up by Christmas of next year so if she does, she may not have to take it next Spring. We'll see. She'll apply to schools in the Fall.

 

[js]

I would just suggest that if she's taking additional math classes, she might want to go ahead and take a fall test. My son's score went up several hundred points between March and October, and it was almost all in the more advanced questions of the math portion. He really did no other preparation other than to review what he'd gotten wrong on the first test.

Good to know, thanks. My dd takes advanced math but really the math on the SAT is not Junior/Senior level math. It is just remembering the math and knowing the tricks. Several hundred points is a LOT! WOW! Good for him!

 

[js]

Why do you say the things bolded above?

What's wrong with taking the tests multiple times?

While there is nothing "wrong" with it, a college that receives 5 SATs from you will wonder why you had to keep taking it so many times. You also don't want big discrepancies from CR or Math from one test to another. That is what I think but I am far from an expert. I work in a college but not admissions, just the Provost/President office. Admissions is a whole other ballgame. 2-3 times is the norm.

 

[js]

I would just suggest that if she's taking additional math classes, she might want to go ahead and take a fall test. My son's score went up several hundred points between March and October, and it was almost all in the more advanced questions of the math portion. He really did no other preparation other than to review what he'd gotten wrong on the first test.

Good to know, thanks. My dd takes advanced math but really the math on the SAT is not Junior/Senior level math. It is just remembering the math and knowing the tricks. Several hundred points is a LOT! WOW! Good for him!

 

[Green Tea]

OK, duh moment for me...but what is the SAT II? I'm new to all this and I've not heard of this.

DD must take the ACT 3 times IF she is enrolled under the umbrella school she is with now. They require it instead of a standardized test every Spring from 10th -12th grade. She may finish up by Christmas of next year so if she does, she may not have to take it next Spring. We'll see. She'll apply to schools in the Fall.

These are the subject area tests. You can test in various histories, languages, math in 2 levels, the sciences. If schools are requesting ACT test scores over SAT scores, they might not care about the subject tests. But some schools want to see the core content areas via standard tests for home school students, even if not required for traditionally schooled kids.

Some colleges just require SAT II scores, usually 2 from 2 different areas. A math whiz can't submit Math I and Math 2, maybe Math and Physics, or Math and History etc.

I think of the 5 colleges one of mine applied to, 3 required SAT II, 1 requested, and 1 had no requirement for them.

 

[kbeverina]

Good to know, thanks. My dd takes advanced math but really the math on the SAT is not Junior/Senior level math. It is just remembering the math and knowing the tricks. Several hundred points is a LOT! WOW! Good for him!

He didn't take Algebra III/Trig until second block junior year, so he'd only had about a month of it when he took the March test. Then again, maybe he just bombed or didn't take it seriously enough the first time. He's diabetic and his sugar was pretty high the first time from stress, too, so that could have been it. He was in the 1100s, so it wasn't horrible, but it made the schools he was interested in a reach. He went up almost 100 in CR and 200 in Math. We were shocked because I know that's not typical when you do nothing in between the tests to improve your scores. It made a huge difference for the out-of-state schools he was interested in because he qualified for in-state tuition with the second set of scores at several of them.

So that would be my second piece of advice--if the kids score much better on fall tests, go back and check schools you might have written off right away because some of the applications are due earlier if you're trying to get scholarships or out-of-state tuition waivers. We got scores back only days/weeks before some of the deadlines for that came up.

 

[MrsPete]

My kids' high school is the same. If the kid is in the AP class, they must take the test. We actually pay for the test at the beginning of the year. (It is not a public school though.) I think that's because the class is weighted more heavily, and they don't want kids taking it just for the weighted benefit.

They may SAY this, but they can't actually FORCE you to take an AP test. It costs money, and it's outside the normal scope of school. They're probably just hoping no one calls them on it.

Here's what our school does: You're required to take EITHER the AP test OR the teacher-made final exam. In reality, everyone chooses to take the AP test.

We actually didn't go to that many official Open Houses. I agree with your guidance counselor. For most of the schools we visited, we would arrange a tour through the admissions office, often there was an information session first at the admissions office, then a campus tour with a student guide. After that we would normally go to the cafeteria to get a feel for the campus. We would look at the school newspaper, check out the flyers posted on bulletin boards (for activities, etc.).

We made a big checklist before we went to our first Open House, and it's kept us from forgetting a lot of little things. Because of our checklist, we've remembered to look for the laundry in the dorms, to pick up all campus newspapers, to note library and cafeteria hours, to check to see if there's a Baptist student group, etc.

The handbook now says if the student does not take the AP exam, they will lose the AP designation and weighting and will be referred to the principal for disciplinary action.

They may SAY that, but in reality, there's not much the school could actually do. And that's fair.

I've told this story before, but here it is again: When I was a junior in high school I signed up for several AP courses to be taken my senior year. By the time I was close to graduation -- when I would've taken the tests -- I'd decided on my college, and I knew they weren't going to give me credit . . . not even if I made a perfect score. So I didn't waste time or money (and those tests aren't cheap) taking tests that would've gained no advantage for me.

If you were the principal, would you really punish me for that decision?

From our DS18's experience, I am going to make sure the kids visit schools on a weekend as well. We asked about weekend life when we toured and our tour guide said that lots of kids stay on campus and there was a lot to do. We didn't take into consideration that she was a senior and we were looking for information about freshmen. DS's dorm turns into a ghost town every weekend and he is probably not going back there next year because of that. Most of his friends are not going back either.

My college was like that, and I loved it! During the week, the place was packed and it was fun. Thursday nights -- late Thursday nights -- everyone went out to the clubs. And on the weekend something like 2/3 of everyone went home. So the dorms were quiet during the day, and those of us who always stayed hung out together on the weekend. My roommate always went home, so I had a private room every weekend; I think that's why we stayed together so long when other roommate pairs dissolved. The people who stayed became my close friends -- THAT was what made the difference. It was kind of like going to two schools -- one large, one small.

I think I've mentioned this before, but, with the talk of unhappy kids transferring, it should be said again... When you're looking at schools, look at stats on how many students return for their sophomore (and if you can get it, junior) year. My middle son transferred from his original school -- looking at these figures, it shouldn't have been a surprise that he did.

To be fair, kids don't always transfer after freshman year because they're unhappy.

Some transfer because they had a nice fat scholarship freshman year, and it doesn't renew -- all too many people don't consider that, and they figure that further financing will just work out. After all, didn't they get the first scholarship? But all too often, it doesn't happen that way, and at the end of the freshman year they're scrambling to choose something they can afford.

Or they don't do too well academically. Maybe because they were too involved in having fun, and Mom and Dad say, "You're coming home."

I think also that if you have a school that has 20 valedictorians that either there is a lot of grade inflation going on or the school isn't challenging the kids enough

Or the school doesn't weight GPAs. Consider this:

My daughter's high school calculates BOTH weighted and unweighted GPA and both appear on the transcript. She has made one B in high school . . . so her unweighted GPA makes her #2 in her class and her weighted GPA makes her #26. So with the unweighted GPA 25 people in her class have made straight As thoughout high school -- a feat, yes, but not an impossible feat that means they weren't challenged. And those 25 are tied for #1. I don't know how many people are tied for #2 along with her.

The weighted GPA is more fair because it gives more credit to those who've taken more AP classes. Some of those kids in the #1 position are in the self-contained special ed class. I don't begrudge them their As -- they worked hard for them -- and they'll not be competing with our honors/AP students for college spots, but an A in a self-contained special ed class isn't equivalent to an A in Advanced Junior English or AP Chemistry. When you look at the weighted GPAs, those kids still look good on paper, but they aren't in the top 10% of the class (because they're all general-level classes, which count less than honors or AP).

While there is nothing "wrong" with it, a college that receives 5 SATs from you will wonder why you had to keep taking it so many times.

And then there's the money. I was SHOCKED at what it cost to take the SAT.

 

[bballmom56]

They may SAY this, but they can't actually FORCE you to take an AP test. It costs money, and it's outside the normal scope of school. They're probably just hoping no one calls them on it.

They have been called on it. The school handbook says if you sign up for an AP course, you are REQUIRED to pay for and take the exam or face disciplinary action as I described below. I saw it happen and spoke with the student and his parents. This student was punished before there was a written policy, so I can only assume it will happen with the written policy in place.

This may or may not apply to anyone else's HS, but it applies to ours. Just sayin'.

The handbook now says if the student does not take the AP exam, they will lose the AP designation and weighting and will be referred to the principal for disciplinary action. I have no idea what the disciplinary action would be, but this started back when my DS was a senior and he had a friend who refused to take the Comp. Sci. exam because he felt he was not prepared from the class (DS had the same teacher for a different course, so we were not surprised the friend felt that way). That student was punished by not being allowed to attend senior week activities which I thought was entirely unfair. The policy about taking the AP test was not even in the handbook at that time - it is there now because of that situation.

 

[Robinrs]

Anyone have any experience with Georgia Tech? I actually don't want to deal with the BIG state schools in town but they've invited us down for a tour. They do offer the major my son is interested in so it goes on the short list but I'm kind of OVER the UGA/Ga State/Ga Tech competitiveness so prevalent here.

Anyone?