A Disney Family's Dining Review - we magically even got some pictures!

great reviews and great photos.......thanks so much for taking the time to do this......I am SOOOOOO READY FOR DISNEY...
 
Really enjoying reading your reviews! That sundae from POP looks sooo yummy to me right about now and I don't even do ice cream ;) Our girls LOVE akershus too. I love how you write about your girls...you can just tell that you guys are great parents, not trying to force the characters on them. My DD's were always fearless with characters, santa, etc... DS is questionable but he does seem much more timid than the girls ever were.

You're sweet, thank you! And you don't "do" ice cream!?!? Are you crazy!?!? ;) :rotfl2:

What were your dates in Feb? We were there as well from the 3rd to the 15th and we stayed at Pop.

We were there Feb 12-19, so we definitely overlapped a few days! Our room was in the 90's, near the parking lot - not ideal for some, but perfect for us since we rent a car. :)
 
Day 6

Thursday was our last day at Magic Kingdom. We enjoyed morning EMH and then spent the rest of the morning around Fantasyland & Tomorrowland, so when we were ready for lunch, the obvious choice was…

Cosmic Rays

I like the variety of food there, but it would definitely be a bigger pain if your family members want foods from the different three “bays,” since you pay at each one and wait there for your food – different than the way the value food courts and Sunshine Seasons work. But the benefit is that if your family all wants food at the same area, it’s an easy line to keep young kids together in. :goodvibes I guess there’s no true EASY way when it comes to getting food with little ones. ;)

Thankfully, DH and I both wanted the barbeque chicken & ribs meal (we were pretty hungry after all of our rides and walking!). It comes with tasty green beans and mashed potatoes, both of which we gobbled down. The chicken was good, too – moist and not super fatty. I wasn’t a big fan of the ribs, but they’re really not my thing – DH ate mine. He says he ate them, but they weren’t that great – definitely not falling off the bone. He also actually ate all of his green beans, which really means they must have been good! We also got the chocolate cakes for dessert and shared them at the end.

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Our girls wanted chicken nuggets and grapes, so we just got two packages of grapes. :) Still the yucky processed chicken nuggets. What’s up with that!? :eek: They also split an apple juice, with water for after (juice is a treat in our house). They did eat pieces of my chicken, too, and nibble on my mashed potatoes and green beans.

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What really cracked me up about Cosmic Rays is that DD1, who if you’ve been reading this report you know is very afraid of masked characters, thought that Sunny Eclipse (the singer) was AMAZINGLY funny, and even insisted that I get a picture of her standing in front of his stage! Considering that I kind of think that alien guy is a little creepy, it really surprised me that she enjoyed him so much. But it made for a fun dining experience! Overall, we’d give Cosmic Rays an 8/10 for our lunch.

I still don’t really know quite how it happened – we were ALL over the park that day. I mean, we spent lots of time in Frontierland, Adventureland, everywhere. But somehow when it came time that we were hungry, we were back near Fantasyland and Tomorrowland. And the last rides we wanted to hit were right by there, too, so we again ended up at…

Cosmic Rays

We would have preferred to choose somewhere else, but it didn’t make sense to move around for our timeframe, so we just decided to eat there again and get different food.

This time, DH and I both wanted the same thing again (yay for not having to deal with different food bays!) – Pulled Pork sandwiches. We got them with apple slices (I was a little surprised that DH chose those for his side instead of fries, but he did!). I actually didn’t eat any fries the whole time we were in Disneyworld. I do like fries, but I just wasn’t craving them then so I didn’t see the benefit. Anyway, the apple slices were pretty tasty! I feel like sometimes when you get them - prepackaged and sliced – they can get a little mushy and lose their flavor. Maybe these apples were just more fresh, but they tasted pretty good – not as amazing as just biting into a fresh, crisp apple, but satisfying. The sandwich was good – nothing amazing, but filling and I appreciated that the bun was wheat-ish (I don’t think it was 100% whole grain, but it had more flavor than a plain white bun). (and sorry for the really blurry pic!)

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I don’t have a picture of our girl’s meal, but they split the peanut butter & jelly uncrustable sandwich with applesauces, plus apple slices from our bags. We also split the two chocolate cakes that DH and I got again. :woohoo: They’re really yummy!

For dinner at Cosmic Rays, we’d again go with an 8/10… it’s not the best-ever counter service food, but it’s filling, has ample seating, and a good location.

Sometime during the day, we also got a few snacks – while we were waiting for the parade, it got hot so we shared some Dibs ice cream bite things with a snack credit, and we also got a bucket of popcorn popcorn:: at some point (the bucket isn’t a snack credit, but I think it’s worth it for the value of the bucket – ours is currently being used as a container for playdough tools, and it’s a fun momento!).

This day was a little strange because we didn’t have any table service meals, but it did allow us to go on more rides, see more attractions, and meet with characters (the ones you can’t see at a character meal ;)). That’s the downfall to the regular dining plan – table service meals take longer, but they’re also really nice to sit and relax. It’s totally a personal preference. :)
 
Day 7

Friday was our last park day. :( We made it our DHS day, as we knew we didn’t need more than a half-day there. After a really rough morning – everything we wanted to do was down (TSM, Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast wasn’t scheduled until later, etc), we went over to the Indiana Jones show. This was a low-crowd-forecasted day in February (and felt that way)… but because of all the other flukes that day in the park, 10 minutes before the show started it was open but standing-room only! Urgh! Not happening with two little ones. So by that point we just decided we were hungry enough for lunch, and we REALLY wanted a fresh start. We headed to our favorite DHS counter-service restaurant…

Toy Story Pizza Planet

First of all, my reasoning for this being our favorite place at DHS has a little history. On our first trip to WDW together, DH and I ate there because we were able to get a pretty cheap meal and we enjoyed the pizza – plus we like the Toy Story theming. So on every subsequent trip, we’ve gone back – the pizza is still good, and since any other fast-service place we’ve tried at DHS hasn’t been great to us, we continue to go back. Our girls like it there, too, so it’s just kind of a tradition. The negative there is the seating – there’s usually plenty up at the top, but getting up there on the steps can be a challenge, and the elevator is kind of out of the way. Oh well.

We went up and ordered our pizzas (DH and I both got the pepperoni pizza combo with a soda and a Mickey rice crispy treat)… weirdly, DH specified “large” for his drink and I had forgotten, but I noticed the cashier change her button on the register so I made sure my drink was a large, too… it had been originally entered as medium. Not a huge deal, but since either size is fine with the dining plan, I’d rather get a bigger diet coke and keep it in our stroller if I don’t finish it all then. So I guess it’s just a point to note – I hadn’t specified before, and had always received large drinks at restaurants that had them, but I guess DH’s way of just ordering a large drink is smarter. After we ordered, it took AWHILE for our food to be made – I still don’t know what was taking them so long, but it was pretty ridiculous. I finally just headed upstairs with our girls and we waited for DH.

The pizza was still yummy – hot, good chewy crust, just tasty – I mean it’s not the best pizza I’ve ever had, but it also doesn’t taste like a frozen pizza or anything similar. Especially on a hot day at Disney, we enjoy it! The big bummer this time was the salad – woah have they made those smaller!! Now they’re Caesar salads instead of a garden salad like they used to have, and the container makes the salad inside MUCH smaller. Big disappointment! It was still an okay salad, but I like my lettuce (and other veggies) and we were not impressed with the salads.

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Our girls split a kid’s cheese pizza meal – with, what do you guess? Applesauce and grapes of course! :) We had a second applesauce with us so they didn’t have to share that. They had apple juice with it, and although I don’t have a picture, they thought it was a great meal and helped finish some of my pizza, too.

We shared the Mickey rice crispy treats afterward – they’re okay, but they taste more like the packaged Rice Crispy Treats in the blue wrappers, not like fresh homemade treats. I mean, don’t get me wrong, I’m okay with eating them, but they always make me want to make fresh rice crispy treats at home. YUM-O. But their shape makes them taste better anyway.

Overall, our rating of Pizza Planet would probably be 8/10… it gets a good rating still for the pizza and atmosphere, but lowered due to the smaller salads.

After our lunch, the rest of our time at DHS was better, but it still made us question if we’ll go back there the next time we’re in WDW. We still haven’t settled that decision. :confused3 We left in time to head back to our room to change and then head over to the Contemporary for dinner at

Chef Mickey’s

We hadn’t been there before, so we were excited to try it out. I’ve seen it get a lot of various reviews – some love it, some hate it. We got there before the restaurant was opened (our ADR was for 5:10, and the restaurant opened for dinner at 5). First, we were sent to the photo area to take our picture with the Mickey statue. Since DD2 was still napping in DH’s arms, they said we could come back later for it – I double checked that the photo wasn’t included with our meal and since it’s not, we conveniently never went back for that photo op. ;) It’s not hard for us to say no to buying a ridiculously-overpriced photo package, but it just didn’t seem worth the hassle to go back. Anyway, so we waited with others as the staff prepared everything and then did a little mini-ceremony for opening the restaurant. Tables started getting quickly called, and soon we were, too.

We were seated by a sweet older gentleman, Mr. Al, and then our server came to explain how things work. We had also noted this meal as a Birthday meal (since a previous trip it had been noted more than once and only celebrated once, I figured if I put the note on more than one, then there was at good chance of our girl’s birthdays being celebrated… lesson learned, we now know better who does something fun and know that we don’t need to note it on everything). It turns out that at Chef Mickey’s, the birthday cupcake comes out in the BEGINNING of the meal, and they bring extra candles and a pack of matches, too. Then you’re suppose to light the candle as each character comes by for a photo op. In reality, it was kind of silly, especially with two little girls who just wanted to eat the cupcake. :cutie: But they actually did REALLY well and ate their other food first (until the last of the characters came by and they asked if they could eat them). But still, unless one of our girls REALLY wanted to do it again, I don’t think I’d note a birthday celebration on a Chef Mickey’s reservation again.

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Donald came by first, and since it had been a few days since a face-masked character meal, we discussed the idea of characters beforehand with our girls. DD1 decided that she wanted to be braver and she would sit in her seat and smile at me with a character behind her. I reminded her that she didn’t HAVE to do that, but I also didn’t want her to regret not having photos for her book, so I said we’d take it a character at a time and she could let me know. So for Donald, she did just that – smiled at me (and the photo clearly shows her concern peaking out!), and she was so proud of herself. DD2 still had no interest. :) Mickey came by and the same thing occurred, as with Pluto later. When Goofy came by the smile was much more forced (he’s a tall guy, which is funny to me because DH is tall, too, but he really intimidates my girls!). However, when Minnie came by, DD1 was up out of her seat sooooo quickly! She had hugged her (timidly) last year for the first time, and this year she was so happy to get to hug Minnie! Minnie actually came by two more times throughout our meal, and each time DD1 insisted she needed another photo.

Anyway, the buffet at CM is the same on both sides, so our server suggested we go to the left side – this turned out to be a smart suggestion. Except that after Donald and Mickey came by, both of our girls wanted to go up to the food with me. And as I’m sure happens with other parents, when you’re walking with a child in each hand in a slightly busy area and they start heading in a different direction than you’re intending but will still work for what you need, you just go with it. Or I did at least. So we went on the right side. Yep, it was slower. Oh well! :rotfl: Both DD’s chose fruit, cheese, and some croutons and shredded cheese. I think there were grapes and strawberries on their plates, but they were gone before I took the picture.

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So then I got my starting plate – salad and a bowl of clam chowder. I don’t have clam chowder very often, but this was REALLY rich… I could only eat about 1/3 of it. It was tasty, though. The salad choices were slim – no good fresh vegetables (other than the cucumbers & lettuce), and I added a potato salad, pasta salad, and some cold seafood thing (kind of like a gumbo?). The plate was okay, although the cucumbers had a strange bitter taste and nothing was awesome.

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Apparently I have no pictures of DH’s food. He probably got a salad and then other food. ;) He doesn't remember. I know that he went up to get other food for our girls, and brought back the plate below – Mickey Mac & Cheese with broccoli and green beans. The mac & cheese was sooooo cute! Our girls didn’t eat much of it, but I figured it was because they weren’t that hungry by then. So when I was done with my plate (which I’ll write about in a second), I went up and got some mac & cheese, too… I just wanted some good comfort food. :woohoo: Um, bad idea – that stuff was adorable LOOKING, but oh man, it was awful!! NO flavor, not a good texture (and I’m not super picky about mac & cheese, I like lots of types!), and it just was NOT good. I only ate one bite! So much for that. No wonder our girls didn’t eat much.

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When I went up for entrée food, I got the plate below – salmon (see I’m not kidding, I LOVE salmon!), a pasta dish, a turkey pot pie, and some broccoli. I was really looking forward to it! Then I took a bite of the salmon. Woah. It was BAD! It was super-super-super salty and just gross. :sad2: I’ve never not liked salmon before and I don’t know what they did wrong to it (maybe it was the sauce on top? No idea), but all I could eat was that one bite. If I had been at home, I probably would have spit it out… it was really THAT bad. The rest of the stuff wasn’t as bad, but nothing was great, either… the pasta was just eh, the pot pie was bland and the broccoli was just broccoli but nothing special. I was pretty disappointed, although having known that there are some negative reviews of Chef Mickey’s on here, I was less disappointed than I would have been if I was expecting excellence. That’s why I got the mac & cheese, and clearly that didn’t help me, either.

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So it was on to dessert. :goodvibes Thankfully Chef Mickey’s at least did that well. DH took the girls up to get their dessert – and get this, DD1 fell down while they were walking by the dessert stand and according to DH’s tale of the story, Minnie RUSHED over to her, helped her up, and gave her a kiss! DH says Minnie got to DD1 before even he could. :lovestruc How sweet! It was quite the story when they came back to the table. Even DD2 (still fearful of Minnie) was talking about it. So then they got their desserts – here’s what I know happened. DD1 decided that she wanted ice cream with candy on top for her dessert, so she got hers. DD2 had decided that she wanted that, too, but then when she saw the candy on DD1’s ice cream, she changed her mind and decided that she wanted JUST the candy. That’s my girl. ;) Their bowls are below…

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DH got a Mickey Mousse thing, a key lime tart, and a piece of bread pudding. They were all presented well, but honestly the Mickey Mousse looked way better than it tasted – bland mousse on an Oreo cookie. But at least it was adorable. The rest of the desserts were good, too… I don’t have a pic of it, but I got a Minnie’s Cheesecake that was tasty, and I loved DD2’s idea so I got a few jelly beans and Reese’s Pieces, too. At least our meal ended sweetly. :yay:

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Overall, the character interaction at Chef Mickey’s was great – they all handled the shyness well and posed for some very cute photos. Obviously, Minnie even went above-and-beyond. So for that aspect, I’d give a 10/10. But the food was severely lacking. I don’t think I’ve ever had that many negative feelings about food at a restaurant. Maybe we just had a really bad night? Either way, for food, I’d give it a 4/10 (redeemed only by the fruit and desserts). So I guess overall I’d give it a 6/10. Would I go back? I’m not sure. It’s an easy way to meet the Fab 5 and the theming of the restaurant is all really cute, and maybe the food would be better again. So I’d probably give it another shot. I’m just forgiving like that. ;)

There's only one day left! I'll finish up soon with Day 8 - 1900 Park Fare Breakfast and Mara lunch.
 

Loving your report, Thanks!

Quick question, was there a carving station at Chef Mickeys?

We are doing dinner there for the first time on our arrival day and my DH is already complaining! It was DD8's pick so he will just have to suffer through, but at least if they have some beef at the carving station he won't starve!
 
We were there Feb 12-19, so we definitely overlapped a few days! Our room was in the 90's, near the parking lot - not ideal for some, but perfect for us since we rent a car. :)[/QUOTE]

We were in the 80's, thats where I alway request to stay.
 
I didn't read the dining report fully yet but I just wanted to say THANK YOU for giving on. It's really true there aren't many didning reviews with kids included. Its very nice to read that yours will have that!!
 
wanted to chime in that I am enjoying your reports - you are right that there aren't that many dining reports with little ones ... so seeing you take on it and how your kids reacted in different situations is great :thumbsup2

I love the tip about starting off with non-masked characters (i.e., princesses) to get them used to it.

We went a couple of years ago when DD was 8mo old and was great with the characters, but not sure how she will react at our upcoming trip when she will be 2 years and 8mos old - so that is a great tip.

I think we may look to target some more buffets than originally though or just have DD eat off of our plate. She likes food with taste (her two favorite things are calamari and yellow curry) so not sure how some of these kids meals will go over with her
 
Day 8 (our last day :()

We packed up our stuff in the morning and then headed over to the Grand Floridian for breakfast at…

1900 Park Fare

This time we knew how long it would take to park and walk over, as we had discovered from last year, so it wasn’t an issue. We left in plenty of time and weren’t rushed. We arrived to check-in, and after doing so, we toured the lobby area with our girls. They enjoyed looking at the decorations around the Grand Floridian, and although I again loved the outside of the resort, the inside just isn’t my style. I’m not sure what exactly they’re going for with their décor, but I think if I was going to choose a Deluxe resort, it wouldn’t be my first choice. Oh well – the likelihood of us ever staying Deluxe is pretty darn rare. ;)

After our pager went off, we went to take our photo in front of the picture of the castle (I think it’s a little odd… we’d taken pictures in front of the REAL castle just that week, but whatever – our girls weren’t super cooperative for the photo anyway and I knew we weren’t going to spend money on their version). We were taken to our table, and discovered that there was a discrepancy – we were seated at a large table, enough seats for eight people, and we only had our four… somehow the reservation had been messed up to say four adults plus two children. When we mentioned this, they looked around and saw a nearby empty four-top table… perfect. Unfortunately, us coming in at that point threw off some of the positioning of the characters because most of them had already come by that table area, but we knew they’d be by again later.

Then our girls remembered another important part of that breakfast – not only were they THRILLED to meet Alice, but Pooh and Tigger were there, too. Of course, I had hoped that they’d be over their fear totally by this point and would love to hug their buddies, but I knew that was just silly thinking, and it’s not like me trying to rationalize with them was going to suddenly diminish their fear. Thankfully, the best character-watching cast member (the ones in the blue shirts) came by and noticed our girls were timid (I think her name was Bobbi?). She was so sweet – she asked if there was an issue for us with the characters, and we let her know that our girls were frightened of Pooh and Tigger, but excited to meet the others. But at the same time, DD1 was trying to mention that she might be more brave this time and sit at the table (covering her eyes, lol) so that they could sign her autograph book. Well sweet Bobbi (I hope that was really her name!) suggested that she could just take the autograph papers to her friends Tigger and Pooh and have them sign without actually coming over to our table. Problem solved! It was a perfect suggestion, and we were so grateful for her kindness. So both DD’s got a Pooh and a Tigger signature in their books (and I took pictures of them signing the papers), and of course they love to tell that story when they show off their autograph books. :thumbsup2

We then realized that the rest of the characters would be awhile, so we went off to get some breakfast. Or rather, DH went up, but since we had been at Chef Mickey’s the night before (where it was the same food on both sides), he was assuming the layout was similar and forgot to look at both sides. So he went up and got breakfast for our girls (Mickey waffles with strawberries, which was a fine breakfast, was mostly finished when I finally got my phone out for a picture), but he was disappointed in the lack of selection for himself (his plate is the bottom picture with Mickey waffles, breakfast pizza from the kid’s section, bacon, and hash browns… he enjoyed the food, he just thought there would be more choices – and there were, he just didn’t see them ;)).

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I went up next and went to the other side, too… totally different! :goodvibes And I loved the selection on the other side (well, both of them together). I found that there were different fruits on each side, so I was able to load up, and then I got some protein, too… eggs, bacon, and sausage. Yummy!

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DH went back up later and got a bunch more that he loved (again, breakfast foods pretty much can’t go wrong for him) and he was much more satisfied. :cool1: I went up again, too, because I wanted to indulge in something extra-yummy. I got a pecan cinnamon bun (yum!), hashbrowns (and maybe another potato? I don’t remember what else is in the picture, but I do love potatoes so it wouldn’t surprise me that I got two types), and the best… lobster eggs benedict! It was sooooo good! Mmmmm, just thinking about it makes me hungry.

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While we were eating, Alice was getting close to our table, and then we realized that our spot was just off – because of our table situation at the beginning, our girls watched her come by and then she had to go in for her break before coming out to greet us. The same thing happened with the Mad Hatter (Mary Poppins had been by earlier). It wasn’t a huge deal, and we were in no rush because we didn’t have any major plans for our last day, but it might have been annoying if we had planned to go into the parks after breakfast. Anyway, she did finally come by and our girls were super excited to see her! :) The Mad Hatter was a little concerning to both DD’s… honestly, for them, they’re just not a fan of “strange” men in general, so they just didn’t get excited or want to talk to him. But the Mad Hatter was HILARIOUS! He took our autograph pens (those kooky pens with the funny tops in Snow White and Cinderella) and started having them talk to each other and just be silly. It had me laughing, and although they tried to hold it in, I saw both DD’s laugh a little, too… and they’ve certainly talked about it later. ;) It was fun to see a character have such fun with his interactions!

Overall, we’d give 1900 Park Fare a 10/10 for breakfast – the food was delicious, the characters and staff were great, and we really enjoyed it.

We enjoyed our relaxing last day, toured and shopped some in Downtown Disney, and then decided to check out another resort for lunch, so we headed over to Animal Kingdom Lodge for lunch at…

Mara

AKL is beautiful! Our girls loved looking at the pool, and I think there was a little desire to be able to go in that pool, but they weren’t upset that we couldn’t. We also got to see some animals on the savannah, which was extra cool! It did take us a long time to find Mara, though… we didn’t have a map of the resort and tried to follow signs, but kept getting confused. We finally asked for help. :)

This is where we discovered a great thing about staying in value resorts (besides the cost savings ;))… the counter service has so much more to offer there! There wasn’t anything wrong with the Mara, but I just like a lot of choices – at Everything Pop, I could easily eat a different meal for every meal for a week and be satisfied – I just don’t think you could do that at Mara. But of course no one’s really doing that, so it’s not a huge issue. The restaurant was pretty empty when we came, so we were greeted with a menu to make our choices. I decided on the Mara Salad with Chicken – a flavorful chicken on top of a salad with chickpeas, cheese, black olives, onions, tomatoes, and a vinaigrette. It was really tasty! DD2 ate most of my chickpeas, but that’s okay. My dessert choice was zebra domes – I had heard of them on here and was excited to try them. They were really yummy, too! I’m not sure how to describe them, but they were sweet and good.

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DH got a cheese flatbread, and also got zebra domes (Mara doesn’t have as many dessert choices as Everything Pop, either, but thankfully their choices were good) that he liked, too. He also discovered here that he could get one of those big energy drinks as his drink – how had we not realized that before? I don’t like them at all, but DH does and we just don’t ever buy them, so he was excited to get one. I’m guessing he’ll remember that next time.

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DD’s spit mac & cheese with applesauces and applejuice… and were happy to help us eat finish our meals and our zebra domes, which we never could have finished on our own.

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After our meal, we needed a restroom visit before we headed out, and we discovered the bathrooms right next to the Mara. Our DD’s fell in love with that bathroom – I think the newer resorts have the kid-size sinks even lower than the older park sinks, and even DD2 could reach everything. They LOVED that!!!! DD1 helped DD2 get her soap and they stood there for a good five minutes just washing their hands together in such joy, lol. I was happy to have their hands clean, and loving the fun, too. I love that Disney caters to even the young guests!!!!!!

After our time at AKL, we headed to the airport for our trip home, so I guess that’s the end of my report! Please let me know if any of it doesn’t make sense or needs clarification, or of course if you have any questions. I’m currently pricing out our options for next year if we try to make another Disney trip before DD2 turns 3 or if the prices for Disney Cruise Line go down for leaving out of NY so we could do that instead. :woohoo: Oh how I love the planning!
 
I think we may look to target some more buffets than originally though or just have DD eat off of our plate. She likes food with taste (her two favorite things are calamari and yellow curry) so not sure how some of these kids meals will go over with her

Yeah, I think that trying bites of our food (still at the buffets, our girls aren't usually adventurous in trying foods on their own plates) helped break up the boredom of the kid's meals, but our kids also obviously didn't mind getting the same foods more than once. ;)
 
Loving your report, Thanks!

Quick question, was there a carving station at Chef Mickeys?

We are doing dinner there for the first time on our arrival day and my DH is already complaining! It was DD8's pick so he will just have to suffer through, but at least if they have some beef at the carving station he won't starve!

I think there was in the middle, but I'm not positive. I don't usually go for a carving board meat, and DH just doesn't remember one way or the other. :laughing:
 
Do you recall at crystal palace if they still had the breakfast lasagne? Its not meat or cheese but fruit based.
 
I really enjoyed your reviews!...Thank you for taking the time to share your experiences!:flower3:
 
I really enjoyed your reviews!...Thank you for taking the time to share your experiences!:flower3:

This review is over 4 years old!!!!. Dining changes seaonally = let alone over years. It is best to not quote these older threads
 















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