8

[mikehn]

Unfortunately, its a two way street.

Before any work is done, a plumber should diagnose the problem, determine if he can fix it, then give a cost estimate.

However, when a customer just says 'fix it', then that could be a problem.

I dont know who said what.

 

[bicker]

Before any work is done, a plumber should diagnose the problem

This is impossible: Diagnosing the problem is work.

 

[golfgal]

This is impossible: Diagnosing the problem is work.

That is not true. Often giving a description of the problem gives a plumber a good idea what is wrong.

I would have called an appliance repair guy--our guy is pretty good. Usually over the phone, tell him what is wrong, he tells you what he suspects is wrong and how much it probably will cost. He will also tell you if it isn't worth fixing. He hasn't been wrong yet.

Heck, over the DIS, Cathryn Rose's DH "fixed" our dryer a few years ago--listened to the noise it was making, directed us to a parts website and we replaced the part It's been working great ever since.

 

[holycow]

I'm agreeing with Golfgal.

My DH was a plumber and if he didn't "fix" the item he didn't expect to charge full price for coming back out. Which he never had to do since he was so good.

I think the guy is taking advantage of her.

 

[bicker]

Diagnosing the problem is work.

That is not true. Often giving a description of the problem gives a plumber a good idea what is wrong.

First, it is true. Even if it takes 25 seconds, you're still drawing on the knowledge, experience and professionalism of someone else, and that person is owed something for their work, even if they choose not to charge you for it, to build goodwill.

Second, even if what you meant to object to was "Diagnosing the problem is time" (which wasn't what I actually said), then at best, all you could really say is that it is not always true that takes time. Still, often it does, and when it does, then you're not only drawing on the knowledge, experience and professionalism of someone else, but also benefiting from their expenditure of time devoted to your problem. Again, that person is owed something for their time and work, even if they choose not to charge you for it, to build goodwill.

 

[Imzadi]

Why did it take him 3 hours to diagnose a problem that he didn't even have the right tool for?

I haven't had plumbing done, except one time. But, I have had many mechanics diagnose & fix my cars. The car may sit in the shop for 3 hours before they finally look at it to diagnose it. When they do diagnose it, they may take 20 minutes, pulling things apart, like the brakes to tell me it's the rotors or shoe pads worn down, etc., which they couldn't figure out until they took a brake apart.

They don't just put the car back together and charge me. They talk to me and ask me what to do. And if they don't have a part, and put the car back together, they certainly tell me up front of something needs to be ordered, or if I need to take my car to another garage for more specialized repairs.

Second, was he just left alone in the house to poke around -- err diagnose? How does she really know he was there for three hours if she wasn't there with him?

Why didn't the plumber write on the bill what the problem was and that someone else still needed to be called? Exactly WHAT was she paying him for when he didn't even write down what the problem was after he diagnosed it? He didn't give her any diagnosis when he gave her the bill.

Something sounds a bit off to me.


ETA from OP:

She called him back that night, and he came out to look at it again. He said he can't fix it. She was told to call someone that had a special piece of equipment called a jetter(sp?).

So he hadn't fixed it the first time, since he never had the right tool. He didn't even write down any diagnosis from the FIRST visit. He came and took a second look. Then came up with a diagnosis.

 

[holycow]

Again, that person is owed something for their time and work, even if they choose not to charge you for it, to build goodwill.





NOT 580$ for not solving the problem. To me that is thievery.

 

[Imzadi]

Again, that person is owed something for their time and work, even if they choose not to charge you for it, to build goodwill.



NOT 580$ for not solving the problem. To me that is thievery.

I agree. For $580, I expect the problem to be fixed. Sounds like he was just house-sitting.

So this guy wants $580 for a problem he didn't fix AND the OP's mom has to pay a new plumber to finally repair it.

I think she should call around and see if there is even this jetter tool, and/or to get a diagnostic from another plumber and to ascertain, if possible, if the first guy did ANY work at all.

I wouldn't pay for a guy to sit around eating bon-bons while I pay for his time.
I'd tell him to renegotiate the bill or take me to Small claims Court. I would not take this to the Arbitration Process, I'd let a judge handle this. I don't know plumbing, but I bet the judge has probably heard too many cases like this and I'd let his ruling stand.

OP, I'm sorry about your dad. This might be an (partially) expensive lesson for your mom to learn she can no longer stay in a mentality of learned helplessness, which is what happens when perfectly able people weren't taught a level of skills they ARE able of, (like letting the husband take care of all the details,) and then later when faced with the situation on their own, they act helpless, like saying "Just fix it."

The first time it is a natural response. But, unfortunately, she now needs to learn there are certain procedures she do and ways she needs to act, to make sure thieves who spot that kind of situation a mile away, don't get away with taking advantage of a situation such as this. I am not saying this IS one of them, but her own actions contributed to the matter. She just can't act helpless anymore and not ask certain questions, like, was this even a licensed plumber, and stay to on top of the situation, (watching the man) as some people will help themselves to her wallet.

She should have taken part of the day off from work to watch if he really did anything, and to have sped him up. If she pays the full amount, he probably walks off with 3 times what she made that day going to work, unless she's a doctor or lawyer. If she stayed at home, his "diagnosis" even though he never originally gave one, might have taken 1 hour. Even with losing time off from work, she still would be ahead money-wise.

 

[Robinrs]

She could have bought a new washer for less than the $580 thid guy charged her!

Agreed!!

I had a leak in my washing machine and it took about 10 mins and $50 to fix it. I thought I'd need a new one too and was already on Craigslist looking for a used one.

This guy saw a woman he could easily rip off. I would talk to him personally and NOT give him that money, EVER. I'd ask for his charge for coming out and pay that. THEN find every single source to report his sorry butt.

 

[Kellydelly]

There is no way that your mom should pay the guy a dime for "not fixing" her water leak problem. He doesn't have any integrity expecting her to pay him for not fixing it either. I don't care how much time he spent diagnosing the problem, the end result was no fix!

 

[DisneyFan32WI]

OP here-again.
I just got off the phone with the manager of this plumbing service. I told him that his website claims to have upfront pricing and a 100% satisfaction guarantee. I told him that neither of those happened.
I said that an almost $600 bill without fixing anything is ridiculous. I also told him that I understand that someone's time does cost money which I am willing to pay-just not at $600!
He said that 90% of all plumbing companies do not have a "jetter." Apparently we need to call Roto-Rooter and have them clean out a 2" drain line in the laundry room that is filled or stuck with grease. They are not able to fix it with this standard drain cleaning machine. I said that a full service plumbing company should be able to rent or borrow this "jetter" from someplace to fix problems like this. He said you just can't go and rent this type of machine.
He did say that he is willing to adjust the bill slightly, but that he would need to get back to me tomorrow about it.

I called Roto-Rooter and at least they told me it would cost $375 per hour and it should be completed within that one hour. I'm sure SOMEONE will take their time to push it over the first hour. I'm such a skeptic!
$600 from company #1 PLUS $375 from Roto-Rooter =$975 for a
2" drain cleaning!

Here is a cut-n-paste from their website:
Both financially and emotionally, your home is one of the biggest investments you'll ever make. You should enjoy many years of happiness in it. However, like almost everything else, a home needs regular maintenance and home repair. ***** offers you the following services:
Plumbing Service – repairs, equipment and fixture installations, drain cleanings and much more with “Upfront Pricing”

(The 100% satisfaction guarantee part is listed above this message on the website).

 

[Imzadi]

Here is a cut-n-paste from their website:
Both financially and emotionally, your home is one of the biggest investments you'll ever make. You should enjoy many years of happiness in it. However, like almost everything else, a home needs regular maintenance and home repair. ***** offers you the following services:
Plumbing Service – repairs, equipment and fixture installations, drain cleanings and much more with “Upfront Pricing”

(The 100% satisfaction guarantee part is listed above this message on the website).

Make them take you to small claims court. He fixed nothing in 3 hours, didn't write squat on the bill for what the problem was, and his guarantee and written claims are worthless. He expects you to roll over. You have a weak, trusting naive mom, not used to dealing with authority figures. He expects you to be the same way. Don't roll.

Is he a LICENSED plumber? The one time I had to call a plumber he wouldn't come back to repair the big hole he put in the wall - which he said he would do. I had to threaten to call the the plumbing licensing authority. I forget their actual name. It should be at the beginning of your plumbing listings in your Yellow Pages. They printed a huge warning to check & make sure that any plumber hired is properly licensed and to file complaints if not, or when needing to file a complaint on a licensed plumber you'd go to that authority.

As soon as I mentioned I would file a complaint, they coughed up a guy to repair the wall.

If your plumber wants $600, he should hire Roto-Router himself, and use the $600 towards that bill - THAT would be 100% job DONE.

 

[bicker]

Why did it take him 3 hours to diagnose a problem that he didn't even have the right tool for?

That sounds like some of the account managers who work for my company. "Why do you get the insanely difficult things done in 20 minutes, but for the easy things it takes you three weeks to tell me that it is infeasible?" The answer to their question is that they don't know what is difficult and what is easy. You either trust the knowledge, expertise, and professionalism of the people you hire, or you shouldn't have hired them in the first place.

 

[bicker]

Again, that person is owed something for their time and work, even if they choose not to charge you for it, to build goodwill.

NOT 580$ for not solving the problem. To me that is thievery.

This is a critical disconnect I believe many consumers suffer from: The dollar amount has nothing to do with whether or not it is "thievery" or not. This goes back to something I mentioned in another thread a couple of days ago: Just because something isn't pleasurable doesn't mean someone else is evil. That conclusion skips far too many steps for that accusation to be rational.

It is thievery if the worker goofed off, or misrepresented his/her skills, or charged something other than standard rates. There is no proof presented of any of that.

 

[bicker]

OP here-again.
I just got off the phone with the manager of this plumbing service. I told him that his website claims to have upfront pricing and a 100% satisfaction guarantee. I told him that neither of those happened.

That has to be the crux of your case, that something promised didn't happen. If it gets to your-word-against-theirs, they will be forced to present some evidence (such as a signed authorization to do the diagnosis, with all the terms and conditions on the back). If what you're saying is true, they don't have that, and you'd win. As such, assuming that they're not inclined to just take your word for it as a matter of goodwill, you're still in good shape, because they'll likely not let it get that far, as long as they believe that you would take it that far.

I called Roto-Rooter and at least they told me it would cost $375 per hour and it should be completed within that one hour.

I'm sure they're glad that someone else has done the diagnostic work for them.

 

[luvmy3]

OP here-again.
I just got off the phone with the manager of this plumbing service. I told him that his website claims to have upfront pricing and a 100% satisfaction guarantee. I told him that neither of those happened.
I said that an almost $600 bill without fixing anything is ridiculous. I also told him that I understand that someone's time does cost money which I am willing to pay-just not at $600!
He said that 90% of all plumbing companies do not have a "jetter." Apparently we need to call Roto-Rooter and have them clean out a 2" drain line in the laundry room that is filled or stuck with grease. They are not able to fix it with this standard drain cleaning machine. I said that a full service plumbing company should be able to rent or borrow this "jetter" from someplace to fix problems like this. He said you just can't go and rent this type of machine.
He did say that he is willing to adjust the bill slightly, but that he would need to get back to me tomorrow about it.

I called Roto-Rooter and at least they told me it would cost $375 per hour and it should be completed within that one hour. I'm sure SOMEONE will take their time to push it over the first hour. I'm such a skeptic!
$600 from company #1 PLUS $375 from Roto-Rooter =$975 for a
2" drain cleaning!

Here is a cut-n-paste from their website:
Both financially and emotionally, your home is one of the biggest investments you'll ever make. You should enjoy many years of happiness in it. However, like almost everything else, a home needs regular maintenance and home repair. ***** offers you the following services:
Plumbing Service – repairs, equipment and fixture installations, drain cleanings and much more with “Upfront Pricing”

(The 100% satisfaction guarantee part is listed above this message on the website).

OP, did you ask about the specifics of what was done for your mother? Did yiou ask about the hourly labor charge, and did you ask if the plumber did clean out the drain with the equipment he had? Did you ask what work was done?

 

[shortbun]

I would call the plumber and ask for a revised bill or one that itemized his charges. Three hours does not warrant a nearly $600 bill. And, he didn't even repair the problem which he should have known when he left and advised. Most good plumbers have a 1st hour charge or minimum for showing up. Then they charge per hour and for parts. Seems that this plumber was ill prepared. What kind of plumber doesn't have the equipment to fix a leak? Absurd!

 

[arminnie]

He needs to at least be paid for his time.

Not always! And my dad was a repairperson so usually I am all for them being paid.

I had a leak in my hot water heater (self diagnosed). The plumber came and said it was in my pipes which where under concrete (old, old house). Instead of ripping up concrete he put in all new pipes (this was a large laundry room 12-'x10') which meant I had pipes all over the walls and ceilings. It cost a fortune.

Guess what - I still had a leaky water heater which is ALL I'd ever had wrong. This was a very reputable big plumbing company - but they just made a stupid mistake. Mistakes do happen - I don't think they were trying to gyp me - but I refused to pay for their mistake. From day 1 I'd requested a new water heater.

I had some arguements with the owner, but he really didn't have a leg to stand on so finally agree that I did not have to pay for the totally unnecessary repairs which ruined the looks of my room.

 

[arminnie]

Seems that this plumber was ill prepared. What kind of plumber doesn't have the equipment to fix a leak? Absurd!

I agree with 90% of what you are saying but there is some heavy duty special equipment for cleaning out lines that is not standard on each truck.

I am in a very old highrise with pipes that were not built to handle these low flow toilets. My poor downstairs neighbor has born the brunt of this. As I am often gone for months the paper waste becomes like concrete - regular tools will not dislodge it. A special truck must come with really, really heavy duty rotors.

We think we have it covered now. I have to flush the toilet 4-5 times per us plus run a full tub of water from each bathroom (or run the shower for 20 minutes). Really saves on water doesn't it?

 

[Liberty Belle]

580 for 3hrs? So he makes 193 an hour and he did not even fix it? Wow, something is wrong here.

I've decided what I want to go back to school to study.