8.9 earthquake and tsunami in Japan!

[MagicKingdom05]

And I wonder how far this toxic stuff can travel? How long do the effects last?
This is terrible!

Who knows, but it looks like what many of us feared could happen with the reactors is now starting to happen. Obviously nobody knows exactly what's going on at ***ushima Daiichi, but it seems radiation leakage has started.

Radiation levels at the damaged ***ushima Daiichi nuclear power plant have increased to "levels that can impact human health," and anyone within a 30-kilometer radius of the plant should remain indoors, Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said Tuesday.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/14/japan-quake-live-blog-rescuers-from-all-over-pitch-in-to-help/

Radiation measured at 400 times annual legal limit near No. 3 ***ushima reactor - Kyodo

http://www.breakingnews.com/seed/ah...legal-limit-near-no-3-***ushima-reactor-kyodo

 

[IdesOmarch]

Now saying this is worst nuke crises since Chernobyl, and there are dangerous levels of radiation leaking out of one of the reactors right now. They're evacuating I think it said 130,000 people from the area, They tell the people to stay inside their houses? I wonder how on earth does that help? Unless you have a lead lined sealed house? Which obviously no one does.

 

[sbell111]

Now saying this is worst nuke crises since Chernobyl, and there are dangerous levels of radiation leaking out of one of the reactors right now. They're evacuating I think it said 130,000 people from the area, They tell the people to stay inside their houses? I wonder how on earth does that help? Unless you have a lead lined sealed house? Which obviously no one does.

The radiation danger isn't from 'rays' of radiation taking you out from miles away. The danger is from breathing in/ingesting/coming into contact with vapor and other materials that have been contaminated by radiation. So basically, you tape the doors and windows and wait for rescue to come extricate you from your home (or be given the all clear).

 

[OceanAnnie]

I read where the radiation could reach Tokyo tonight but it wouldn't be dangerous levels at this point. They predict the radiation will dissipate to a level that won't be harmful to people by the time it reaches Tokyo.

 

[rascalmom]

Scary stuff. I have a very good friend who just moved to Tokyo. She's been trying to be upbeat in her FB updates, but I know she has to be scared & concerned. I'm afraid if I were in her shoes I'd be looking for a way to get home.

 

[snarlingcoyote]

Okay, for those of you who are trying to understand the nuclear radiation threat, I'll quote you portions of an e-mail from a nuclear inspector. He quotes a report from the NEI (Nuclear Energy Institute) website. This is a professional group of folks in the nuke industry. They are reporting direct translations of the reports that the Japanese Atomic Energy Agency - the Japanese version of the NRA - sends them.

Here's the NEI report:

"The Japan Atomic Energy Agency (JAEA) reported an explosion in the suppression pool at ***ushima Daiichi Unit 2, at 7:14 p.m. EDT on March 14. Reactor water level was reported to be at 2.7 meters below the top of the fuel. The pressure in the suppression pool decreased from 3 atmospheres to 1 atmosphere. Radiation readings at the site increased to 96 millirem per hour."

A few hours later, they reported this:

"At 8 p.m. EDT March 15, a dose rate of 1,190 millirem per hour was observed. Six hours later, the dose rate was 60 millirem per hour, IAEA said."

According to the nuke inspector (this is not someone who is affiliated with an anti-nuke group. This is someone in the nuke industry, reporting the facts. Remember, he's around this stuff every single day.)

"To give you an idea of what 96 mrem (snarling's note: mrem=millirem. 1 millirem = 1/1000 of a rem.) per hour is like, the average person in the US gets about 600 mrem per year in natural radiation. In Louisiana we might get about 300 a year, but in Colorado a person would get closer to 900 mrem due to all the granite and higher elevations. The dose you would get from a CT scan is about 1000 mrem or 1 rem. The NRC has set the limit for nuclear workers in the US to 5 rem a year but most get less than 100 mrem per year. At any dose less than 20 rem or 20,000 mrem no changes have been noted in human bodies."

Hopefully that will help make the radiation doses understandable and the reactions understandable.

He also noted (I've only been following the NEI website. It seems the least biased, since they're only reporting the facts with no hyperbole.) that a lot of the media don't seem to understand how a nuke reactor is designed and think there's only one containment field and that any problems in the containment fields (there are 2) mean the reactor is spewing radiation everywhere, which isn't true. (This has been irking me as well.)

They also don't seem to understand that those explosions are kind of expected and are NOT inside the reactor and are not due to any sort of "build up" but due to a release. The turbines that turn making the energy from the heat of the nuclear reaction are surrounded by hydrogen gas instead of oxygen because it's easier for the turbines to turn when surrounded by hydrogen gas. Any escape of that gas and you're probably going to have an explosion. (Remember the Hindenburg?) (This is brought to you courtesy of me. That's just been irking me no end for several days!)

 

[IdesOmarch]

The one thing I know is that radiation = bad.

In all this I was shocked to learn how much radiation you get in a sunny day on the beach, especially with white sand. That's why I usually stay under my big beach umbrella.

 

[AshleyW]

The radiation danger isn't from 'rays' of radiation taking you out from miles away. The danger is from breathing in/ingesting/coming into contact with vapor and other materials that have been contaminated by radiation. So basically, you tape the doors and windows and wait for rescue to come extricate you from your home (or be given the all clear).

So, I'm wondering - and sorry if this is dumb, but I really know nothing about nuclear power - but let's say these people seal themselves in their houses. How long theoretically would it take to be given the 'all clear', assuming they weren't rescued by then?

 

[OceanAnnie]

Okay, for those of you who are trying to understand the nuclear radiation threat, I'll quote you portions of an e-mail from a nuclear inspector. He quotes a report from the NEI (Nuclear Energy Institute) website. This is a professional group of folks in the nuke industry. They are reporting direct translations of the reports that the Japanese Atomic Energy Agency - the Japanese version of the NRA - sends them.

Here's the NEI report:

"The Japan Atomic Energy Agency (JAEA) reported an explosion in the suppression pool at ***ushima Daiichi Unit 2, at 7:14 p.m. EDT on March 14. Reactor water level was reported to be at 2.7 meters below the top of the fuel. The pressure in the suppression pool decreased from 3 atmospheres to 1 atmosphere. Radiation readings at the site increased to 96 millirem per hour."

A few hours later, they reported this:

"At 8 p.m. EDT March 15, a dose rate of 1,190 millirem per hour was observed. Six hours later, the dose rate was 60 millirem per hour, IAEA said."

According to the nuke inspector (this is not someone who is affiliated with an anti-nuke group. This is someone in the nuke industry, reporting the facts. Remember, he's around this stuff every single day.)

"To give you an idea of what 96 mrem (snarling's note: mrem=millirem. 1 millirem = 1/1000 of a rem.) per hour is like, the average person in the US gets about 600 mrem per year in natural radiation. In Louisiana we might get about 300 a year, but in Colorado a person would get closer to 900 mrem due to all the granite and higher elevations. The dose you would get from a CT scan is about 1000 mrem or 1 rem. The NRC has set the limit for nuclear workers in the US to 5 rem a year but most get less than 100 mrem per year. At any dose less than 20 rem or 20,000 mrem no changes have been noted in human bodies."

Hopefully that will help make the radiation doses understandable and the reactions understandable.

He also noted (I've only been following the NEI website. It seems the least biased, since they're only reporting the facts with no hyperbole.) that a lot of the media don't seem to understand how a nuke reactor is designed and think there's only one containment field and that any problems in the containment fields (there are 2) mean the reactor is spewing radiation everywhere, which isn't true. (This has been irking me as well.)

They also don't seem to understand that those explosions are kind of expected and are NOT inside the reactor and are not due to any sort of "build up" but due to a release. The turbines that turn making the energy from the heat of the nuclear reaction are surrounded by hydrogen gas instead of oxygen because it's easier for the turbines to turn when surrounded by hydrogen gas. Any escape of that gas and you're probably going to have an explosion. (Remember the Hindenburg?) (This is brought to you courtesy of me. That's just been irking me no end for several days!)

The release = explosion. Explosions = damage. Damage to the containment area is a real threat. That is understood.

 

[snarlingcoyote]

So, I'm wondering - and sorry if this is dumb, but I really know nothing about nuclear power - but let's say these people seal themselves in their houses. How long theoretically would it take to be given the 'all clear', assuming they weren't rescued by then?

That depends upon the half-life and dissipation of the radiation that is released. The authorities are going to take a cautious approach (hopefully, and that's what we've seen thus far from the Japanese government) and make you wait before sounding the all clear. Essentially, they'll take readings and when they readings indicate things are safe, the all clear is sounded.

I've lived in areas that have big sirens on poles scattered around and I've actually lived through some shelter-in-places (for releases of gas at chemical plants). They sound the alarm and everyone goes indoors. You close the windows and the doors and seal up any cracks to the outside as best you can and turn on the TV; you turn off the AC because of the venting of outside air in. (This is the nasty part: imagine, it's 95 degrees and 95% humidity and you're nervous. . .and NO AC for a few hours!) If you're at work, everyone, including customers, just have to sit around with you. People that ducked into your business because it was the closest building have to wait with you as well.

Then you just sit and wait for the sirens to sound the all clear.

 

[snarlingcoyote]

The one thing I know is that radiation = bad.

In all this I was shocked to learn how much radiation you get in a sunny day on the beach, especially with white sand. That's why I usually stay under my big beach umbrella.

Don't go into Union station, or live in a mountainous zone then. You're getting radiation. Don't fly - you'll get radiation. Don't have an MRI or an X-ray done.

 

[IdesOmarch]

Don't go into Union station, or live in a mountainous zone then. You're getting radiation. Don't fly - you'll get radiation. Don't have an MRI or an X-ray done.

So you're saying its all cool and good for there to be nuclear meltdowns because, oh heck, your going to get radiation when you fly or have an MRI anyway?

 

[IdesOmarch]

And BTW, how and why does Union Station have radiation? Never heard of that?

 

[Bilberry]

With all the troubling news out of Japan today about radiation, saw at least some good information.

Putting a radiation rumor to rest
http://michellemalkin.com/2011/03/15/putting-a-radiation-rumor-to-rest/

From it:

Things are bad enough in Japan and around the world without cranking up the baseless rumor mill.
Jeff Schogol at Stars and Stripes debunks a radiation scare map being circulated on the web

:

 

[sbell111]

And BTW, how and why does Union Station have radiation? Never heard of that?

It's made out of granite, which is slightly radioactive.

 

[IdesOmarch]

It's made out of granite, which is slightly radioactive.

I believe everything has some radiation. Saying Union Station has radiation equivalent to a nuclear meltdown at a nuclear power plant (or saying don't go to union station if you're afraid of radiation) is kind of like comparing getting a pimple to fatal skin cancer.

 

[laurie31]

This may help clear up some of the confusion about how much radiation is "normal" and how much is dangerous.

The device we use for measuring radiation levels is called a geiger counter . In a typical city in America, it will read 10-12 microroentgen per hour. In the center of many European cities are 20 microR per hour, the radioactivity of the stone.

1,000 microroentgens equal one milliroentgen and 1,000 milliroentgens equal 1 roentgen. So one roentgen is 100,000 times the average radiation of a typical city. A dose of 500 roentgens within 5 hours is fatal to humans. Interestingly, it takes about 2 1/2 times that dosage to kill a chicken and over 100 times that to kill a cockroach.

Also, MRI's don't use ionizing radiation, as x-rays and CT scans do.

Technically radiation includes light waves, radio waves, sound waves, x-rays, gamma rays, and particle emissions. Some are electromagnetic and some are and some are physical particles. Some are ionizing and some are not.


MRI stands for Magnetic Resonance Imaging. It uses no ionizing radiation. It uses magnetic fields to cause Hydrogen atoms to move and rotate so the machine can detect them. The movement actually gives off radio frequencies. That is the only "radiation" involved in an MRI scan, and it is not harmful.

It is completely different from an x-ray, where ionizing radiation is shot through an item and a sensitive film detects the radiation that is not absorbed by the item.

Ionizing radiation is what is harmful. This is the most recent data I coudl find of levels of radiation at the damaged reactor in Japan.

The System for Prediction of Environment Emergency Dose Information (SPEEDI) releases gamma radiation data online.

Based on a N, NE and NNE wind direction (where it originates), meaning all coming from F u k u s h i m a, with a normal reading in the 80 nGy/h range, the city of Kounosu Naka is at 3,024, Kadobe Naka is at 2,416, Isobe Hitachioota is at 1,213 and many others are in the mid to upper triple digit range! Again, this is based on wind coming out of F u k u s h i m a and ultimately headed toward the capital. Indicatively, normal terrestrial plus cosmic gamma radiation is about 80 nGy/h.

So yes, it's very serious. I pray they are able to keep a full meltdown from occurring.

 

[happygirl]

They are pulling workers away from the nuclear plants saying the radiation surge is to high.

 

[MagicKingdom05]

They are pulling workers away from the nuclear plants saying the radiation surge is to high.

We will have to wait and see what happens, but this is not a good sign at all.

 

[snarlingcoyote]

So yes, it's very serious. I pray they are able to keep a full meltdown from occurring.

Hmm. I had to stop and look up how these things convert.

You're reporting data in nano-Grays per hour. (Note: I'm not comfy with math or physics or chemistry or any of it. I only made a C in physical science because the guy sitting next to me tutored me the whole way through!)

Where beta-gamma radiation is concerned:
1 Gray (Gy) = 1 Sievert (Sv)
1 Sievert (SV) = 100 Rem
therefore, 1 Gy = 100 Rem

The highest nGy/h on your chart is 3024 nGy/h.

(Okay, I had help with this bit. My math SUCKS and I never can remember what a nano is!)1 nano-Gray (nGy) = 10 to the minus 9 Grays (10E-9 Gy)

(3024 nGy/h)(10E-9 Gy/nGy)(100 Rem/1 Gy)(1000 mRem/1 Rem) = 0.3024
mRem/h (I did cheat a little on this one, I just plugged in the numbers. . .I can't keep track of the decimals!)

(All right, did this one on my own - I CAN keep track of time )
There are 24 hours in a day so
(24hr/d)= 7.2576mRem/d

There are 365 days in a year.
(7.2576mRem/d)(365 d/y) = 2649.024 mRem/y

1000m/Rem = 1 Rem
so 2649.024mRem/y= 2.649024 Rem in a year.

Okay, so unless my math is bad, which is ENTIRELY possible (I urge everyone to double check me!) that's currently a safe level.

To put things into perspective a banana is 36 μSv or 3.6 mRem. (I'm not joking. Bananas have potassium in them.) So if you eat 3 bananas in one hour you're getting the same dose that is shown on the highest level in this chart.



Now, at the reactor, I understand there was a reading of almost 9000 uSv/hr at one point. (Just for a very brief period, I think.) Anywho, 9000 uSv/hr = 900000 urem/hr = .9 rem/hr. That was serious.