7 Month window is a scam

[River Country]

As far as my salesperson goes, she was amazing and in hind sight she did not mislead me at all. She laid out the options I had in front of me as far as what resorts were selling and at what price, at the time it was SSR, BLT, Aulani, and AKV. SSR was the lowest cost and had the most incentives. It was explained the difficulty of booking BWV BCV and VWL at 7 months and that SSR was so large that it would be easier to book SSR at 7 months than the other resorts that were for sale at that time, but since I have been a member since 2010 I have booked BWV standard Studio, BCV 1st week of dec standard studio, VWL studio, OKW 1BR and Studio, all at 7 months so anything is possible at 7 months

 

[ziravan]

If the guide is making misleading claims and answering the buyers questions with false information, how exactly is the buyer to know they have been mislead and that they do not have the correct understanding of what they are buying? If a car salesman sells a car to an individual saying the car is in great shape, and visually the car looks great and handles great during the test drive - only to start having issues three weeks after the sale due to the fact that the car was in a flood...how is that buyer to understand that the car was previously in a flood?

This is the internet world and buying a timeshare should already have someone's spidey senses tingling. A five minute search on a smart phone during a sales pitch should be enough to convince a novice buyer that there is far more to research than can be discovered at a sales pitch.

It's fairly dogmatic on this website to believe that a large chunk of buyers are novices that buy whatever Disney is selling because they're high on pixie dust. I'm sure there's much truth to it.

I just don't understand it. If "buyer beware" doesn't apply to timeshares, then where does it apply?

I researched for months at something like 3-5 hours a night before I bought into DVC. I likely had 200 hours of training when I made my decisions. I'm very happy owning at BC and PVB. But. Even when I'm only buying a new appliance, I pull out my smart phone first and look at customer reviews. Even when I spend 10 minutes learning about a product while standing in front of it, I'm a far more savvy consumer than having just heard a sales pitch. In this day and age, I just can't understand why that's not the norm instead of the exception.

 

[ziravan]

Poly is an Epcot resort (Kinda...)

That's why I bought there with a fixed week F&W date. I agree and I think, regardless how many studios, PVB is going to be as busy as the other EPCOT resorts at 11 months booking for the last three months of the year.

I researched it. I made an informed decision. Here is how my first interaction with my DVC guide went regarding Poly: "I'm ready to buy. I want a fixed week 44 lake view studio with June UY instead of April. I know that will make two contracts, I know the advantages and disadvantages of that, but my April UY won't work for Poly. Sell me a June UY 168 point fixed week 44 lake view studio, today."

My DVC guide didn't mislead me in the slightest way.

BTW, I just noticed that this is my 1 year anniversary on Disboards. I joined to plan my Sept, 2014 trip and this is where I did most of my research into buying DVC. Since then, my "once in a blue moon" Sept trip turned into becoming a DVC owner, AP holder, going to WDW in Sept, Nov, Feb, and three more trips planned for 2015. Thanks Disboards! I couldn't have done it without you!

 

[midaroco]

This is the internet world and buying a timeshare should already have someone's spidey senses tingling. A five minute search on a smart phone during a sales pitch should be enough to convince a novice buyer that there is far more to research than can be discovered at a sales pitch.

It's fairly dogmatic on this website to believe that a large chunk of buyers are novices that buy whatever Disney is selling because they're high on pixie dust. I'm sure there's much truth to it.

I just don't understand it. If "buyer beware" doesn't apply to timeshares, then where does it apply?

I researched for months at something like 3-5 hours a night before I bought into DVC. I likely had 200 hours of training when I made my decisions. I'm very happy owning at BC and PVB. But. Even when I'm only buying a new appliance, I pull out my smart phone first and look at customer reviews. Even when I spend 10 minutes learning about a product while standing in front of it, I'm a far more savvy consumer than having just heard a sales pitch. In this day and age, I just can't understand why that's not the norm instead of the exception.

You should read my other posts.

 

[ziravan]

You should read my other posts.

I read the whole thread. (You have a habit of suggesting that anybody that disagrees with you is misreading you. I'm not knocking you, just pointing it out.)

You keep saying you acknowledge the concept of buyer beware and yet you keep faulting salespeople for selling.

Selling a product means hyping the upside.

GM doesn't sell cars by telling prospective buyers that the model in question has been subject to multiple recalls in recent years.

Restaurants don't advertise their lowest health inspection score.

You fault DVC for trying to sell their product.

Almost every DVC buyer, here or abroad, have been raised in a "buyer beware" environment. The more expensive the product, the more it applies. DVC is the 2nd most expensive item most people could buy, after a house. It's more expensive than a car.

Due diligence dictates that you have enough information to evaluate a sales pitch. If you fail to do so, the fault doesn't lie with the salesperson.

It's your own fault.

(And yes, I did read that we aren't talking about you - you. I'm using "you" in the general sense.)

 

[midaroco]

I read the whole thread. (You have a habit of suggesting that anybody that disagrees with you is misreading you. I'm not knocking you, just pointing it out.)

You keep saying you acknowledge the concept of buyer beware and yet you keep faulting salespeople for selling.

Selling a product means hyping the upside.

GM doesn't sell cars by telling prospective buyers that the model in question has been subject to multiple recalls in recent years.

Restaurants don't advertise their lowest health inspection score.

You fault DVC for trying to sell their product.

Almost every DVC buyer, here or abroad, have been raised in a "buyer beware" environment. The more expensive the product, the more it applies. DVC is the 2nd most expensive item most people could buy, after a house. It's more expensive than a car.

Due diligence dictates that you have enough information to evaluate a sales pitch. If you fail to do so, the fault doesn't lie with the salesperson.

It's your own fault.

(And yes, I did read that we aren't talking about you - you. I'm using "you" in the general sense.)

Your rather presumptuous statement is a bit off putting - I don't have a habit of stating anyone not agreeing with me is misreading me. I actually never made any such inference.

I will not, however, concede when someone has in fact misread my post.

I actually never faulted a salesperson for selling, or even selling only the high-points for that matter. I did fault them for selling with dishonest practices, there is a difference.

As I have said before, and I will say it again - we can't absolve the seller of any and all responsibility simply because you or I have done our research prior to purchasing, compared to many novice purchasurers.

 

[bellablue2]

hilarious thread.

 

[Dean]

YAs I have said before, and I will say it again - we can't absolve the seller of any and all responsibility simply because you or I have done our research prior to purchasing, compared to many novice purchasurers.

Several points. First, while lying or half truths are the rule with some timeshares sales system, that is not the case with DVC. By all accounts it is quite uncommon for them to clearly and purposefully mislead the buyer. Far more often than not, such issues appear to be misunderstandings on the part of the buyer. I think I can count on one hand the number of reports that seems to be a legitimate mislead over the years but I'm sure it happens. That said, one would have to prove the allegation and since it's essentially impossible to do so, it didn't happen. On top of that the buyer is responsible for their own actions including the fact that they warrant in writing that verbal representations are not binding. They are then given the legal documents of which they are responsible as well, if they (or common sense) contradicts what one thought they heard as would be the case for the 7 month window availability, that's the time to be sure before letting the cancelation window pass. Ultimately, my opinion is that one needs to be able to hold their nose and stomach the timeshare sales process to play in the game. No one is suggesting that it's OK to be sleazy but we are suggesting that sleazy happens and there's not much one can do about it without real proof.

Let me recant a personal experience with DVC. When we toured back in 1994 we were given specific information that turned out to be incorrect. Looking back it's clear the sales person either misunderstood the rules (most likely) or misunderstood what I was asking though I felt at the time I was very clear. While we ended up buying resale, we made our decision in large part based on that incorrect information (and I did have proof). DVC ended up offering to buy me out and make me whole which really was all they could do and to their credit. We ended up deciding to stick it out and we're glad we did, it's been a good run.

Specific to the OP, they're actually asking to reserve something a day before the 7 month window opens and suggested it's a sham that they can't get what they want at 7 months out. Historically they'd have had to try day by day, it's only be the last few years that the option of reserving up to 7 days at a time 7 months out was even available. The reality is that other members are getting in ahead of the OP to reserve what the OP wants. The OP also seems to be calling when online would have already been available for an hour though it's possible they tried online and then called as well, we don't know.

Ultimately we are all in competition with each other for reservations with the exception of the fixed weeks. Just today I called one of my timeshares and reserved all the best applicable weeks with the specific intent of exchanging them, part with RCI, part I'm not sure yet. In a few days I'll call Marriott and string together my weeks under the "13 month out rule" effectively reserving the highest demand weeks/resorts 15 months out. While all of these options may be distasteful to some people, they are all clearly within the rules of those systems. Those that know the rules and act on that knowledge will always do better than the rest.

 

[midaroco]

Several points. First, while lying or half truths are the rule with some timeshares sales system, that is not the case with DVC. By all accounts it is quite uncommon for them to clearly and purposefully mislead the buyer. Far more often than not, such issues appear to be misunderstandings on the part of the buyer. I think I can count on one hand the number of reports that seems to be a legitimate mislead over the years but I'm sure it happens. That said, one would have to prove the allegation and since it's essentially impossible to do so, it didn't happen. On top of that the buyer is responsible for their own actions including the fact that they warrant in writing that verbal representations are not binding. They are then given the legal documents of which they are responsible as well, if they (or common sense) contradicts what one thought they heard as would be the case for the 7 month window availability, that's the time to be sure before letting the cancelation window pass. Ultimately, my opinion is that one needs to be able to hold their nose and stomach the timeshare sales process to play in the game. No one is suggesting that it's OK to be sleazy but we are suggesting that sleazy happens and there's not much one can do about it without real proof.

Let me recant a personal experience with DVC. When we toured back in 1994 we were given specific information that turned out to be incorrect. Looking back it's clear the sales person either misunderstood the rules (most likely) or misunderstood what I was asking though I felt at the time I was very clear. While we ended up buying resale, we made our decision in large part based on that incorrect information (and I did have proof). DVC ended up offering to buy me out and make me whole which really was all they could do and to their credit. We ended up deciding to stick it out and we're glad we did, it's been a good run.

Specific to the OP, they're actually asking to reserve something a day before the 7 month window opens and suggested it's a sham that they can't get what they want at 7 months out. Historically they'd have had to try day by day, it's only be the last few years that the option of reserving up to 7 days at a time 7 months out was even available. The reality is that other members are getting in ahead of the OP to reserve what the OP wants. The OP also seems to be calling when online would have already been available for an hour though it's possible they tried online and then called as well, we don't know.

Ultimately we are all in competition with each other for reservations with the exception of the fixed weeks. Just today I called one of my timeshares and reserved all the best applicable weeks with the specific intent of exchanging them, part with RCI, part I'm not sure yet. In a few days I'll call Marriott and string together my weeks under the "13 month out rule" effectively reserving the highest demand weeks/resorts 15 months out. While all of these options may be distasteful to some people, they are all clearly within the rules of those systems. Those that know the rules and act on that knowledge will always do better than the rest.

While this may be your truth, unfortunately this is not shared by everyone.

 

[Dean]

While this may be your truth, unfortunately this is not shared by everyone.

What do you disagree with, I don't see much room for variation within the info you quoted.

 

[gdrj]

I tried to book something at the 7 month window today (for October 18th). The 18th is full but the rest of my trip is available. DVC will not let me book the vacation and waitlist the one day. They said you have to have your first day available to book so I have to call back tomorrow. I am sure the 19th will be booked tomorrow. Why can't I book 6 days and just waitlist the first day?

But to call it a scam? I find that somewhat offensive.

Agreed

That wouldn't be required if the salespeople were honest about the fact that you will more than likely not be able to get into anything other than SSR/OKW in Nov - Dec. I know if I had been informed this, then I would have purchased where I would have wanted to stay 90% of the time.

That has not been my experience.

I admit that sellers lying to sell a product is pretty lousy, but if you go into a timeshare presentation - even at Disney - you better go in with some heavy skepticism. It quite possible that they aren't even lying...they could easily say "At 7 months you will have the opportunity to get into all the other resorts" and that wouldn't even be a lie.

I have to say that my personal experience at DVC and other timeshare presentations as well as based on BBB reviews and based on Disboards and other reviews that Disney presentations are low key. I'm sure there are exceptions, but IMO there would be much more uproar if DVC's practice was similar to Wyndham.

If the guide is making misleading claims and answering the buyers questions with false information, how exactly is the buyer to know they have been mislead and that they do not have the correct understanding of what they are buying? If a car salesman sells a car to an individual saying the car is in great shape, and visually the car looks great and handles great during the test drive - only to start having issues three weeks after the sale due to the fact that the car was in a flood...how is that buyer to understand that the car was previously in a flood?

I think a car in a flood is a bit different than a sales pitch from DVC (just my opinion)

The OP's issue was not understanding why you can't waitlist 7 months + 1 day. He did not understand the reservation process, nor was willing to book other resorts that was available when this was first posted. Also I don't believe he has posted to this thread since (last time I checked). It is pretty easy to throw mud, probably could throw mud at anyone or anything at some point.

 

[gmi3804]

Are we splitting hairs here because some Guides were more/less forthcoming with the realities of 7-month booking/changing than others?

 

[Dean]

Are we splitting hairs here because some Guides were more/less forthcoming with the realities of 7-month booking/changing than others?

I don't think so. First I think we can reliably say that mosts guides are honest and appropriate, enough so that the exceptions are truly outliers historically. I think this has changed a little in the last 4-5 yrs but in principle I think it still applies. One of the reasons I think it's changed is that DVD has tended to hire people with other timeshare sales experience. The other part of the equation is that it's the job of the sales person to well sell. Focusing on the negatives or making sure it's a good choice for a given client isn't really part of their job. IF they tried to make sure that it was a great choice of every potential member they couldn't sell with financing, etc. If they did so, the system literally wouldn't exist.

 

[ziravan]

I don't think so. First I think we can reliably say that mosts guides are honest and appropriate, enough so that the exceptions are truly outliers historically. I think this has changed a little in the last 4-5 yrs but in principle I think it still applies. One of the reasons I think it's changed is that DVD has tended to hire people with other timeshare sales experience. The other part of the equation is that it's the job of the sales person to well sell. Focusing on the negatives or making sure it's a good choice for a given client isn't really part of their job. IF they tried to make sure that it was a great choice of every potential member they couldn't sell with financing, etc. If they did so, the system literally wouldn't exist.

Absolutely. But even so, even if it wasn't the rule that DVC tends to be less pressured in sales tactics, it's the buyer's duty to beware.

This is the thing I don't get. How can someone buy a product that costs 20k plus up front with a 50 year annual obligation and not have at least the due diligence to perform a cursory Internet search about the product?

???????

I'm afraid I don't have much sympathy for somebody that listens to a timeshare sales pitch and nods dutifully while pulling out their checkbook.

EVEN SO. Thankfully, those "high on pixie dusted DVC guide soaking in pliant" buyers are lucky they bought into DVC. They likely will like what they bought anyway, and even if they don't, they won't be dumping it off on eBay for a buck.

 

[Dean]

Absolutely. But even so, even if it wasn't the rule that DVC tends to be less pressured in sales tactics, it's the buyer's duty to beware.

This is the thing I don't get. How can someone buy a product that costs 20k plus up front with a 50 year annual obligation and not have at least the due diligence to perform a cursory Internet search about the product?

???????

I'm afraid I don't have much sympathy for somebody that listens to a timeshare sales pitch and nods dutifully while pulling out their checkbook.

EVEN SO. Thankfully, those "high on pixie dusted DVC guide soaking in pliant" buyers are lucky they bought into DVC. They likely will like what they bought anyway, and even if they don't, they won't be dumping it off on eBay for a buck.

I'm a big personal responsibility type of person and I agree but I'd also agree that where there's a pattern of corruption there's plenty of blame to go around. That's simply not been DVC and DVC's not the only timeshare that can boast honesty as the norm.

 

[chainkid]

I purchased back in 1999 and prior to doing so I learned DVC in side and out as I'm not someone who likes timeshares period. I only asked my salesperson the right questions after I knew enough to pose the right questions. Fast forward to last year when the GFV's were onsale and I chose to speak to an onsite salesperson while viewing the resort. I asked a lot of questions just to see if salesman knew his product and he clearly didn't. He made several statements that I knew to be not true from my understanding and experience of having been in the system . I don't think he lied but it was more he was selling a product and was given selling points without actually knowing the in's and outs of his product.

I run in to the same thing with CM's who do not seem to know as much as I do about rules. I have gotten into many a discussion with guest services over rules that saved me money that they didn't know about . Keep copies of rules or offers and do not back down until they get a manager to verify. The timid will pay hundreds of dollars more. I know I saved over two hundred dollars in dealing with a very unknowledgeable guest relations person at animal kingdom.

Bottom line is you only get out of something what you put into it. DVC is a competive experience and so in order to secure the times you want you have to know how to enhance your chances of being successful. If you don't then you will get lucky sometimes but more often than not you will walk away feeling that you were cheated. I find overall DVC is wonderful but if I died I'm afraid my family would be woefully lost on how to get what they want. You invest a lot of time in the process but its worth the effort. The 7 month window is a crap shoot if you are on a fixed week at the most popular smaller resorts during peak DVC times. Buy where you want to stay is the best advice I can give. I chose not to buy at GFV because of the high cost, the knowledge that studio's would be next to impossible to get during first week of Dec even for owners. I have stayed there on points but only because I was flexible on timeframe. I go when its open.

 

[MBA]

I see several posts about "fixed weeks". What are you referring to?

 

[ToddyLu]

Both VGF and Poly DVC have fixed weeks available for purchase. So if you buy week 48-52 I think that is December and I am pretty sure you could get a room becasue it would automatically be saved for you...probably more to it than that...and it is more expensive.

 

[CMNJ]

For grand Floridian and poly disney decided to offer both points and fixed weeks. Fixed weeks are the traditional timeshare model-you have a set week in a set type of room (ie studio, 1 bedroom, etc) for a specific week of the year. When disney decided to offer this they charged a slightly higher amount than the points required for the same period (I believe to offset any future point reallocation)-I think I read 10%. So if the room would normally require 200 points to book for the week you would have to buy 220 for your fixed week-if you choose not to use your fixed week you can tell them you don't want to use your fixed week and get your points back to book another week, resort, etc. Basically you pay a premium but are guaranteed a specific room type at your home resort every year for the week you buy.

 

[ziravan]

I own a 168 point fixed Week 44 Lake View at Poly

At 12 months each year, I'm automatically booked for that week.

I picked that week because it's the first week of Nov and overlaps Halloween some years. So F&W each year, MNSSHP some years and MVMCP other years.

Plus, if I had opted in this year, I would already have the week booked that everybody is currently scrambling to book at 7 months - the marathon weekend.

If I choose, I can opt out and use my 168 in any 11/7 month way I desire. If I don't opt out, week 44 is fixed and guaranteed each year.

It only cost more if I use the guarantee. If a guarantee isn't needed, I'll opt out and save the points. If, like VGF it becomes a necessity, I'm covered. Win. Win.