6th grader gets 0 for plagiarism rant long

Yes, of course.:rolleyes: The students are always :rolleyes: wrong.

In 99% of the cases, yes, the student is always wrong when it comes to earning grades because most of the time the student didn't follow directions or didn't turn in the work. How is this the teacher's fault?
 
Op, I haven't read the whole thread, but I wanted to say this:
*I think the punishment is too harsh for a 6th grader in a science class. If it were an English class and they are learning to cite, then that would still not be a good teaching method. Now, if they are turning in drafts and the teacher is going over them and helping them along the process, then that's a different story. (I wonder if she uses a rubric for grading them? Or what are the standards for grading them? Is it just subjective? Does she mark point for each error, having a standardized list of points to take off?)
*When I was a freshman in college 9 years ago, the first English paper we wrote, the teacher graded and handed back and allowed us to fix the problems to earn back half of the points for each error. It was a true learning experience. I really don't see the lesson this taught him.
*Wrong is wrong and I don't try to justify that. We all make mistakes and in 6th grade or 12th grade or as adults, we are learning from them. I might go about this as a manner of changing the policy with the understanding that he did go against the current policy, ridiculous as it is.
*I understand your DW stepping down from her position, but you need to be careful that it doesn't seem as though she is throwing a hissy fit. Parents who are very, very active often are seen as threats to some people in the school. Sometimes they seem as though they are trying to control the school, even though that is not usually the intent.
*Please do talk to you son and make sure that this isn't going too far for him. I know that there was an instance when I was in school where some parents took something to the school board and it was resolved, but it became a very big deal in the community. While it was a good thing, the daughter was caught in the middle. She really was ostracized by her peers. It's sad, but that's just how it can be.
 
Well, you know a lot of times people like to compare school to the real world. In my experience as a manager in the real world I was held accountable for whether or not my employees knew procedures. In the real world a company would get likely get sued if they fired an employee (zero tolerance, ya know?) the first time they made a mistake.

So, again shouldn't the teacher actually teach every student? Even if it was 1% that got it wrong the first time? He did turn the work in, it had incorrect components. A zero is a penalty he might not forget but it could have been made into a positive learning opportunity.

I also would say talk to your son and see what he's comfortable with. It might be stressful for him to keep pursuing it although you think it was wrong. You may have use it as a learning experience for your son (there are unreasonable, or more positively - people we aren't going to agree with) in life. Yes, you have to stand up for what you think is right but since this is a child, you don't want it to be to his detriment.

Good luck with it.
 
I agree with the OP, the zero was way too harsh. I don't know about the rest of you but I wasn't taught proper citation till high school. Yes in middle school we were taught how to do a bibliography but not how to cite properly. We certainly were not taught footnotes or anything like that.

The fact that the principal won't answer your questions regarding if it was taught and when it is taught has me concerned. It sounds like they are stonewalling you. I would definately take this to the superintendant and the school board.
 

I agree with the OP, the zero was way too harsh. I don't know about the rest of you but I wasn't taught proper citation till high school. Yes in middle school we were taught how to do a bibliography but not how to cite properly. We certainly were not taught footnotes or anything like that.

The fact that the principal won't answer your questions regarding if it was taught and when it is taught has me concerned. It sounds like they are stonewalling you. I would definately take this to the superintendant and the school board.

I don't think I was taught citation until high school either, and I was in high school in the early/mid 90's so it wasn't THAT long ago.

I agree, the 0 was too harsh and the teacher missed a teaching moment. But only you can decide how far up the chain you want to push this. It's not like this is going on his college transcripts. You can use this as your own teaching moment, that sometimes we get teachers, boss's, employers, clients, etc. in life that don't treat us fairly, and we need to know how to deal with it. Sometimes pushing the issue is the right call, sometimes it's better to live to fight another day.
 
Without seeing the actual project and only getting one side of the story it is really impossible to say if the school was harsh or not. Teachers don't give out zeros lightly, especially to honor roll students. There has to be more to this story.

BTW, our kids learned citation in 4th grade when they started writing research papers. Copying a work word for word and putting quotes around it is still a pretty lazy way to do a project and I would probably not given credit for that either. The whole point is to be able to read something and put it into your own words and THEN cite the works. With computers today it is simple to cut and past off a story, cite your works and in 5 minutes have a 4 page paper done. Not exactly what teachers are after wouldn't you say?

Also, you only have 2 A students in your school? That is odd.

Some little fun facts about the only K-12 school in a National Park. We have approximately 300 students. That includes 'illegals', students who live in the park with family for the school year who are from the reservation (there are many Native American reservations around here), and students who are bused from 26 miles away. Our school is held to every state standard. We are financially strapped as we don't have the residential or business tax revenue most schools have (There are no private residences in the park and the nearest town has only 3. Xanterra, the business that operates in our park, does not pay any taxes to the school). We have a staff of approx. 60. We also have a high turn over rate. Most park service and Xanterra employees stay less than 3 years. We are considered oldtimers at 9 years.
There are 24 students in the 6th grade class. About the same in the 7th grade and closer to 40 in the 8th grade. Only two of them are A-Honor Roll students, both of them are in the 6th grade. Our son received awards in Art, Math, and Spanish. Feel free to check the Williams-Grand Canyon Newspaper which listed all the honor roll students.
However, the point of mentioning that he is a straight A student was not to say that he HAD to have straight As. It was to demonstrate that he is a smart student who has done well on homework, classwork, and tests. Which is why we think this happening is so out of place.
The students were not asked to write lengthy reports. We're only talking about the information that goes on the Project board.
The students have definitely NOT covered citing, etc in their Language Arts class and have not written any research papers in that class. Most of their work to this point has been creative writing.
The teacher does use a rubric when grading which she previously told us was difficult to understand and didn't want to explain it to us. I am a trained nuclear engineer - I think I might have been able to understand it.
The math teacher for middle school told our son that, "Miss Smith does things her own way."
The art teacher was surprised we weren't called in before our child was told he had a zero.
I was surprised when I went to the principal and he told me that plagiarism was cheating and he deserved a zero but to his knowledge this was the first time the school had done this to someone in the 6th grade.
Another teacher said that routinely she had to have science fair projects that had uncited sources fixed before they were judged and it was standard procedure to get with the student and show what was wrong and fix it.
We appreciate the suggestions and will be talking to our son more, both about what he is comfortable with and what happened in the class room.
Again, we are not asking for full credit. We would like to see some partial. Grading for those areas he completed properly and not to be treated as a cheater (someone who committed plagiarism intentionally).
 
I know my kids have learned how to cite sources by the fifth grade. It may vary from school to school, but I specifically remember my DD12 having to do a paper in 5th grade, and she had to cite an internet source. It sticks out in my mind, because I had no clue how to do such a thing, so I spent some time looking at her instructions from the teacher to make sure DD did it right. DS10 is now in fifth grade, and I know he's had to write papers and cite sources.

My question on the science fair is, does this fair feed into a regional or state science fair down the road? I know ours does (although participation isn't mandatory). The reason I ask is, if this science fair could potentially lead to a larger one down the road, the rules may be much more strict on things like format, citation, and subject matter.

I do find the principal's response that "he's sure citation had been taught, no proof necessary" to be a little suspicious. I would never accept such an "explanation" from our principal. Of course, in my years of dealing with our school, I've found the administration bends over backwards to show what is expected of students--it may be a matter of different "style". I can't imagine going to one of myu children's teachers and not getting a thorough answer, even if they might have to take a day or two to respond fully.
 
I know the student and who got first place for her project. Our families are friends. Her mother (who is a teacher at the school) made sure her daughter quoted and cited in her paper. The mother told my wife she checked the paper. We will be 'researching' with other students this weekend. And with their approval citing our sources.:rolleyes:

It sounds like they cheated too. Didn't they have explicit instructions from the teacher for parents not to help?
 
I used to teach college composition and art history classes. As a college instructor, I would not have been as strict as your child's teacher was. I was very serious about identifying and dealing with plagiarism, but there is a big difference between a student who is struggling to make sense of complex rules about citation vs. a student who is intentionally trying to pass off someone else's work as their own. Most times when I had a student who tried to cite correctly but failed, I used it as a teaching moment, generally taking off a couple of letter grades and giving them information and a stern lecture.

I was perfectly willing to fail students, but in my opinion, there was never any reason to do so unless they were trying to pass off someone else's work as their own (and sadly this happened often enough!).

There is no reason to severely punish a student who is trying their hardest to do their own work -- doing so might risk turning a student off writing and academics forever!

Next time, this kid just isn't going to even bother trying since he'll probably think he'll get a zero anyway. Why do a bunch of work and get a zero when you can do nothing and get a zero?
 
I agree, the 0 was too harsh and the teacher missed a teaching moment. But only you can decide how far up the chain you want to push this. It's not like this is going on his college transcripts. You can use this as your own teaching moment, that sometimes we get teachers, boss's, employers, clients, etc. in life that don't treat us fairly, and we need to know how to deal with it. Sometimes pushing the issue is the right call, sometimes it's better to live to fight another day.

With this I agree.

If the situation was a "call" based on hard and fast rules, I think it needs to be sucked up to some degree. If the child has been doing well all along, gradewise it shouldn't be a huge hit. I mentioned the teaching moment a few pages back. Instead of "the teacher is wrong"....it can be "I don't agree with the grade, but this is how you learn from your mistake."

I think you could probably bail him out at a higher level, but to me that is a trend that I don't want to start. If the kid did the deed - no matter how innocently or marginally - I would let it stand, and help hm learn to properly annotate his work.

When my son scored his zero for his mnutes late work, the teacher did otherwse grade and critique the work. He told my son that the work was quality and the effort was noted. (the teacher told me later it killed him to give my son the zero. My son strugglrd with the class and finally "clicked" so this should have been his turn around - I stood by the teacher though. ANd guess who turns in all thei homework on time now,:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: )
 
When my son scored his zero for his mnutes late work, the teacher did otherwse grade and critique the work. He told my son that the work was quality and the effort was noted. (the teacher told me later it killed him to give my son the zero. My son strugglrd with the class and finally "clicked" so this should have been his turn around - I stood by the teacher though. ANd guess who turns in all thei homework on time now,:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: )

That's how it's done!!!!:thumbsup2 There was a consequence for not turning in the project on time, but the teacher acknowledged the effort and work your son put into it. :thumbsup2 :thumbsup2 :thumbsup2
 
Another teacher said that routinely she had to have science fair projects that had uncited sources fixed before they were judged and it was standard procedure to get with the student and show what was wrong and fix it.

OP - I appreciate all the info you've given us - keep in mind this statement, try and approach it from this angle - this report - dont take it out of context, dont let them label this as cheating!! (dont let the teacher, principal, school board take it out of context - try and keep it within the boundaries of the Science Fair project!! Stick to this valid point - dont let the discussion vere off course!!)

Good luck!!

and Rubrics are still subjective imho - it took me awhile to figure it all out, but we use them so often it is SOP - the kids have it down, they also get to grade their project with the rubrics!!
 
Sorry - ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Zero is deserved.

If everyone else completed the assignment correctly, I would not pursue it. The teachers and school board have more important issues than this.

I agree. Don’t most schools have zero-tolerance policies now? Meaning that you must be given a grade of 0 if you’re caught plagiarizing (on purpose or not).
 
With this I agree.

If the situation was a "call" based on hard and fast rules, I think it needs to be sucked up to some degree. If the child has been doing well all along, gradewise it shouldn't be a huge hit. I mentioned the teaching moment a few pages back. Instead of "the teacher is wrong"....it can be "I don't agree with the grade, but this is how you learn from your mistake."

I think you could probably bail him out at a higher level, but to me that is a trend that I don't want to start. If the kid did the deed - no matter how innocently or marginally - I would let it stand, and help hm learn to properly annotate his work.

When my son scored his zero for his mnutes late work, the teacher did otherwse grade and critique the work. He told my son that the work was quality and the effort was noted. (the teacher told me later it killed him to give my son the zero. My son strugglrd with the class and finally "clicked" so this should have been his turn around - I stood by the teacher though. ANd guess who turns in all thei homework on time now,:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: )

You know, for your son, I stand by the teacher as well. Your son turned his paper in late. He was at fault and he has to take the consequences.

The OP's son isn't in the same situation. He did the work. He turned it in on time. He cited his sources. What he did not do was something that he was never taught to do in the first place.

That's a far cry from what your son did, and I can concur with picking your battles, but this is a battle that's worth fighting for, IMO.

How would ANY of you feel if you walked into your job and were fired for not doing something that you were never trained for and never told it was going to be added to your list of responsibilities? I'd imagine you'd all feel that was a battle worth fighting and IMO, this is no different (assuming the child doesn't ask his parents to back down).
 
I agree. Don’t most schools have zero-tolerance policies now? Meaning that you must be given a grade of 0 if you’re caught plagiarizing (on purpose or not).

I would LOVE for someone to explain to me how this even begins to rise to the level of plagiarism? The child cited his sources. The teacher used the sources cited to check the child's work. He did not try to pass it off as his own, he simply didn't add the quotations and footnotes (which he didn't even know existed).
 
I have more of an issue with the Principal saying that the teacher "did not need to prove what was taught".

Lesson plans etc. are available, and whens oemthing like this is in question, I would ask to see them.
 
I think this is a little harsh as well. Should he have cut and pasted? No probably not, a little paraphrasing goes a long way. However the definition of plagiarism contains a clause about willfully misrepresenting the text as your own. If your child cited a source in a bibliography at the bottom of the paper, I don't think it could it could be mistaken that he presented the text as his own word. Perhaps the teacher and principal at your school should look up the definition of plagiarism in a dictionary. If they quote it though, the better cite the source. ;)

Sounds like the teacher has some issue and I would push it as far as you can. You deserve to see the lesson plan and also to understand what was expected of your child and what he was taught in class. I could see if they failed the paper with a lower grade. But a zero is a bit extreme when it sounds like he was trying to do the right thing by citing the reference in the bibliography. Good luck in your pursuit of this issue.
 
I'm a college student and I find myself over footnoting because it's so difficult to remember the hows and whens of proper citation. I would never expect a 6th grader who has yet been taught it at all to do it.
 
Here's my suggestion for the new grade. Calculate the % of his paper that was "plagiarized". Subtract that right off the top pf the grade (say, 10% of the paper was supposed to be in quotes and it wasn't), then grade the paper from there. So maybe now, the max grade is only a 90% instead of 100, but at least the kid isn't getting a ZERO! The zero is WAY too harsh.

My idea of what they are talking about when your school says "zero tolerance for plagiarism" is having some other kid write your paper and then trying to pass it off as your own. THAT deserves a zero. Doing a bunch of research, writing a long paper, and forgetting one little set of quotation marks is NOT the same thing.
 
Here's my suggestion for the new grade. Calculate the % of his paper that was "plagiarized". Subtract that right off the top pf the grade (say, 10% of the paper was supposed to be in quotes and it wasn't), then grade the paper from there. So maybe now, the max grade is only a 90% instead of 100, but at least the kid isn't getting a ZERO! The zero is WAY too harsh.

That's not how plagiarism works.

Suppose a student (even in 6th grade) was caught cheating on a test. Should we subtract one point for the question he was cheating on, or give a 0?

Anyway- the school should have a clear policy in place. Have you read the policy and was the teacher following it correctly?
 














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