5th park at WDW?

[skiingfast]

Not true.

Ideas from dead Disney projects often creep into new Disney projects, so I wouldn't be surprised if a few ideas from WESTCOT made it into Tokyo DisneySea.

Certainly your first statement invalidates you second.

But I certainly wouldn't say that the "idea for TDS came from Westcot, which was the DLR version of Epcot."

Which do you think came first, the idea of Westcot or of Disney Port? You can decide for yourself.

 

[Horace Horsecollar]

Certainly your first statement invalidates you second.

Did you read what I wrote?

There's a big difference between a few ideas creeping from a cancelled project to a later project and the overall DisneySea concept and name, which was originally planned for Long Beach and subsequently realized (in a modified form) in Tokyo.

Which do you think came first, the idea of Westcot or of Disney Port? You can decide for yourself.

Port Disney (with DisneySea) and the Disneyland Resort (with WESTCOT) were both made public in 1991. The plans for both were hatched behind closed doors at Disney before they were made public. Both were products of the early years of Eisner's management.

But that's not really pertinent when discussing the validity of the statement, "TDS came from Westcot, which was the DLR version of Epcot."

Tokyo DisneySea owes far more to DisneySea at Port Disney than whatever it owes to WESTCOT. That's even clear from the names. It's more clear if you read the artcicles.

 

[Melisande]

Someone asked me about a thrill ride park recently too. I do not think they need to compete with Universal. That much is clear. They do need thrill rides but a lot of people can not ride such rides and so making a park like uni which is nothing but thrill rides obviously does not work out in the end.

I had been thinking the other day that it has been too long since a new park launched. AK has been around for like 11 or 12 years now. So they must be at least planning a new one. Walt would be upset if they were not.

 

[tjkraz]

This might be a good time to mention this....probably a compromise of the Night Kingdom idea to something a bit more feasible


http://disneyparks.disney.go.com/bl...nce-at-disneys-animal-kingdom-coming-in-2011/

Funny thing is, when I read about the whole Night Kingdom thing, I didn't envision it as being much more than that.

Opening a 5th traditional theme park doesn't seem to make any sense. I don't see how they could justify spending that $1-2 billion when it would return so much more value in the current parks. Disney learned a harsh lesson when they under-funded DAK and DCA.

I think the logical move is something to compete with the exclusivity of Sea World's Discovery Cove. I could see other ideas like this safari creeping up throughout the property--either as stand-alone adventures or a collection of experiences to fill a day. To Disney's benefit, people really seem to gravitate to moderately overpriced adventures which are billed as unique or limited. Look at some of the D23 events selling out within MINUTES of tickets going on sale.

Why bother spending billions on infrastructure for a new park when Disney can throw up a few rope bridges and charge $130 a pop for a unique look at an existing attraction. Not really my cup of tea but if that's how folks want to spend their money, go for it. I'd rather see Disney make small investments in things like this rather than pour hundreds-of-millions into another half-day park.

 

[fannatic]

The number of new and repeat guests would justify the cost of building a fifth park. Frankly, it's the only way they're going to see a significant increase in attendance. New attractions will bring in more guests to the parks where they're built, but a new park would give people reasons to stay additional days. One thing people fail to realize is the impact of international guests. Many guests from Europe come to Disney World only and can take 2 week vacations. I've read some of their complaints about how WDW doesn't have enough to offer them. The additions to DAK may attract guests who willing to pay premium prices, but it won't have that much affect on park attendance.

 

[tjkraz]

The number of new and repeat guests would justify the cost of building a fifth park. Frankly, it's the only way they're going to see a significant increase in attendance. New attractions will bring in more guests to the parks where they're built, but a new park would give people reasons to stay additional days. One thing people fail to realize is the impact of international guests. Many guests from Europe come to Disney World only and can take 2 week vacations. I've read some of their complaints about how WDW doesn't have enough to offer them. The additions to DAK may attract guests who willing to pay premium prices, but it won't have that much affect on park attendance.

Disney doesn't care about raw attendance numbers. Profit is the most important figure.

The problem with adding a fifth park is that it wouldn't cause overall visits to increase by a proportionate figure. When Disney opened the Animal Kingdom, they had hoped it would result in longer stays and increased spending. What they found was that--by and large--guests did not extend their trips into extra days to visit DAK. Instead they shortened their visits to other parks in order to add DAK.

The net result was that Disney pays millions of dollars per year to staff and maintain ticket booths, shops, restaurants, Guest Relations, parking lot attendants, custodians and dozens of other positions at that 4th gate, but they didn't get a corresponding increase in profits. People didn't spend more on their trips--they just shifted dollars from one park to another, one restaurant to another, one shop to another.

You're right--some people do come from overseas and visit for 2 weeks. The problem is that opening a fifth park wouldn't prompt them to stay for 2.5 weeks. Thus Disney's revenues don't go up while their expenses do increase to support a 5th gate.

Frankly anyone who is a Disney parks fan should hope that they do NOT open a 5th park. Developing a new park would require hundreds-of-millions of dollars invested in infrastructure alone. Before they add a single ride they need to bring in utilities, pave parking lots, theme and landscape the area. They need to build ticket windows, turnstiles, shops, restrooms, bus stops and restaurants.

And that's not even getting into issues with the labor market. Disney already employs 60,000 - 70,000 people in Central Florida. Do we really want them scraping the barrel further to add another 5-10k?

It's fun to dream of what a 5th park might look like, but in most respects it's a colossal waste of money. Better to spend that money on new attractions or "lands" in the four existing parks. I don't want a reason to venture out to another corner of WDW property for a new half-day park. I want Hollywood Studios and DAK to be parks that can hold my attention for an entire day.

Instead of spending $2 Billion to build infrastructure + 8 attractions at a new park, spend 1/3 of that and give me 2 new attractions at each of the existing parks.

 

[fannatic]

I'm against Disney being bought out by anyone. A big corporation could decide that the Disney parks aren't good for the bottom line and sell them off. As for Apple, it seems like Jobs would have them close Disney Animation Studios and just have Pixar do all of their animated films. That seems to be the direction they're going in now - although I hope not. - I think Disney should do the acquiring of companies. However, I don't believe they need another major acquisition at this point. They need to get their house in order - figure out what they're going to do with Marvel etc. They also need to spend a lot more on their domestic parks.

 

[fannatic]

Sorry I put this under the wrong post.

 

[Backstage_Gal]

Disney doesn't care about raw attendance numbers. Profit is the most important figure.

The problem with adding a fifth park is that it wouldn't cause overall visits to increase by a proportionate figure. When Disney opened the Animal Kingdom, they had hoped it would result in longer stays and increased spending. What they found was that--by and large--guests did not extend their trips into extra days to visit DAK. Instead they shortened their visits to other parks in order to add DAK.

The net result was that Disney pays millions of dollars per year to staff and maintain ticket booths, shops, restaurants, Guest Relations, parking lot attendants, custodians and dozens of other positions at that 4th gate, but they didn't get a corresponding increase in profits. People didn't spend more on their trips--they just shifted dollars from one park to another, one restaurant to another, one shop to another.

You're right--some people do come from overseas and visit for 2 weeks. The problem is that opening a fifth park wouldn't prompt them to stay for 2.5 weeks. Thus Disney's revenues don't go up while their expenses do increase to support a 5th gate.

Frankly anyone who is a Disney parks fan should hope that they do NOT open a 5th park. Developing a new park would require hundreds-of-millions of dollars invested in infrastructure alone. Before they add a single ride they need to bring in utilities, pave parking lots, theme and landscape the area. They need to build ticket windows, turnstiles, shops, restrooms, bus stops and restaurants.

And that's not even getting into issues with the labor market. Disney already employs 60,000 - 70,000 people in Central Florida. Do we really want them scraping the barrel further to add another 5-10k?

It's fun to dream of what a 5th park might look like, but in most respects it's a colossal waste of money. Better to spend that money on new attractions or "lands" in the four existing parks. I don't want a reason to venture out to another corner of WDW property for a new half-day park. I want Hollywood Studios and DAK to be parks that can hold my attention for an entire day.

Instead of spending $2 Billion to build infrastructure + 8 attractions at a new park, spend 1/3 of that and give me 2 new attractions at each of the existing parks.

This post is 100% on point. Limited vacation time is the real constraint.

 

[Disjunky]

not sure if it was said already but the first step in decinding or finalizing plans on that 5th park was the purchase of marvel. i hear about a week after purchase, the dis stores were carrying marvel merchandise. if this sells well, and when i was just there it appeard to be, then the 5th park is justified. no groundbreaking just yet but that marvel purchase sure did opena huge segmet.

only prob i have is that marvel doesnt really fit into disney like i think all the otehr parks do. its just me but i dont see the disney theme there yet. i know lots will be spent on seamless inegration, but im an old guy i guess. thats not to say i wont ride everything there at least 2x whilst there.

 

[tjkraz]

not sure if it was said already but the first step in decinding or finalizing plans on that 5th park was the purchase of marvel. i hear about a week after purchase, the dis stores were carrying marvel merchandise. if this sells well, and when i was just there it appeard to be, then the 5th park is justified. no groundbreaking just yet but that marvel purchase sure did opena huge segmet.

only prob i have is that marvel doesnt really fit into disney like i think all the otehr parks do. its just me but i dont see the disney theme there yet. i know lots will be spent on seamless inegration, but im an old guy i guess. thats not to say i wont ride everything there at least 2x whilst there.

There have already been rumors of a Marvel-themed park being added to Disneyland Paris. The original Disneyland resort in Anaheim is also another possibility. They already have another parcel of land about a block away from DL and DCA--it's currently being used as an overflow parking lot. But the parking situation could be rectified by doubling the size of the Mickey & Friends parking structure--a project that has already been budgeted according to some sources.

Universal holds exclusive rights to the use of most iconic Marvel characters east of the Mississippi. That's not to say that Disney couldn't reclaim those rights if they chose to do so. Just need to write a big check.

But Universal's licensing is just one of many reasons why building a 5th park at WDW themed to Marvel characters does not seem terribly likely. A better solution would be a Marvel "land" at Hollywood Studios. Disney could add a pretty impressive expansion to DHS for a fraction of the cost of an entire theme park. It would fit well with the DHS theme and do a lot to growing the overall appeal of that destination.

 

[johnGorski]

I heard of an new land in AK "Mythical Land" and too me this makes more sense.

IMHO I am not expecting a 5th gate park in my life time. I remember in the 80's when DHS opened that flopped big time. This park has boomed since then and I am sure AK will have a major expansion in this decade. With a E-Ticket and a night time show “world of color”

As we are seeing with the Fantasy land expansion they are focusing on the current parks.

 

[apehat02]

I heard of an new land in AK "Mythical Land" and too me this makes more sense.

IMHO I am not expecting a 5th gate park in my life time. I remember in the 80's when DHS opened that flopped big time. This park has boomed since then and I am sure AK will have a major expansion in this decade. With a E-Ticket and a night time show “world of color”

As we are seeing with the Fantasy land expansion they are focusing on the current parks.

The "Mythical Land" is the never completed "Beastly Kingdomme" area which is the site of Camp Minnie-Mickey. This rumor pops up every now and then, where they are actually going to build that area and complete the park, but nothing ever comes of it.

As for a "World of Color" type show..... I don't think we'll ever see any show like that at AK. Disney and the AZA have very strict guidelines in place to protect and preserve the animals and their environments. Thats why there was never a show in the first place, loud music, fireworks, and lasers would upset the animals all over the park. Same reason there are no drink lids and we just got straws a year ago!

Remember AK is not there for us, it's there for the animals, we are just allowed into their world.

 

[nytimez]

Remember AK is not there for us, it's there for the animals, we are just allowed into their world.

I am an animal and this is my world!

 

[puntagordabob]

A Hybrid of Tokyo Disney Sea and a Paradise Pier from DCA (I hate roller coasters and stuff like that but damn this area was charming when I visited recently even with all the construction walls lol) would be an awesome "core" for a new park IMHO...

Of course I agree with some of the other posters on the idea that our other parks could use some love in a big way..

 

[fannatic]

There will be a fifth park within the next 10 years. I'm sure it's already in development. As to the old story that they can't use Marvel characters - please. They just spent $115 mil. on getting back The Avengers and Iron Man 3 movies. Do you really think that Bob Iger and the Disney lawyers would blink at spending about $300 mil. to get the U.S. theme park rights back? I'm sure that either the deal is done and not announced yet, or they're in negotiations for it. I don't know if the fifth park will be themed around Marvel characters only or if they'll have a large presence in it. However, they should be in the park plans one way or another.

 

[tjkraz]

There will be a fifth park within the next 10 years. I'm sure it's already in development. As to the old story that they can't use Marvel characters - please. They just spent $115 mil. on getting back The Avengers and Iron Man 3 movies. Do you really think that Bob Iger and the Disney lawyers would blink at spending about $300 mil. to get the U.S. theme park rights back? I'm sure that either the deal is done and not announced yet, or they're in negotiations for it. I don't know if the fifth park will be themed around Marvel characters only or if they'll have a large presence in it. However, they should be in the park plans one way or another.

Still don't see it. Where's the financial justification for a 5th park? What would they gain by building yet another complex rather than adding a Marvel land at Hollywood Studios or thrill rides at any of the parks?

Again, adding a 5th park doesn't make people increase their trips from 7 days to 9 days--it just means they visit a park like DHS once instead of twice. That's how things played-out 12 years ago with Animal Kingdom.

Disney learned some hard lessons with DCA and DAK to a lesser extent, not to mention parks like HK Disneyland and Disney Studios in Paris. You can't just slap the Disney name on a mediocre product and assume the crowds will flock.

Annual attendance at DHS and DAK still lags behind the Magic Kingdom by nearly 50%. Lots of growth potential there. Look at what WWoHP did for IOA. Universal didn't need to spend $2B+ on a new park--they spent $250M on an expansion and the attendance increases have been dramatic. Disney's money would be much better spent using the same approach in its theme parks. We aren't just talking about a one-time investment--we're also talking about the billions it will cost for decades to come to operate, maintain and grow a 5th gate.

 

[chartle]

Again, adding a 5th park doesn't make people increase their trips from 7 days to 9 days--it just means they visit a park like DHS once instead of twice. That's how things played-out 12 years ago with Animal Kingdom.

I'm sure Disney knows through market research that something like a family of 1.9 adults and 2.3 kids spend on average 6.2 days per trip with 1.5 days at MK, 1.1 days at Epcot .9 days at DHS and .5 days at AK. Until Disney can figure out how to make a week 8 days there will never be time for a fifth park.

My son is working on it, involves worm holes and such very hush hush.

I know many people who visit frequently will say they would stay longer if there was an another park, but I think I have read that more people than you think are first time visitors are have trouble fitting it all into a one week vacation.

Maybe years ago when more families took more than a week at a time (growing up we always did 2 weeks every summer, last week in July first week in Aug) it may have worked out but now even getting a week can be difficult for a lot of people.

 

[fannatic]

Some in the Disney fan base seem to be quite conservative when it comes to Disney park expansion. However, Disney knows their numbers. They know that the economy is set to improve in 2011. They also know that without a major new theme park that attendance will remain flat or only increase slightly. I won't argue the pros and cons of the subject - just know that there will be a major fifth park open at WDW no later than 2018.

 

[rutgers1]

Count our family as one that would stay longer and visit more frequently if there were more options on Disney property. Heck, I had exhausted all of my DVC points this year and came down as a cash guest to see the AAU Nationals basketball tournament which was on the Disney property (ESPN). The more there is to see and do, the more time my family will spend down there.

Likewise, I have friends who live in Florida, and I am 100% certain that they would visit more often if there were more attractions.