5th gate and DVC

[Paul Stupin]

Honestly, none of that appeals to me and most not to my family either in the same way that Disney does. Now, I think it may add another place for families visiting the Orlando area for the first time to add to their trip, along with Disney, but I have not seen anything yet that makes us feel like OMG...this is a must do!

We shall see!

Indeed, we shall see! Super Nintendo World, though, is a highly significant IP that, arguably, has as much if not more recognition worldwide than the classic Disney characters. I’m not particularly familiar with them, but the design for the land is so eye catching and imaginative that I still can’t wait. The How To Train Your Dragon land looks fun, but the Universal Monsters land, with a huge Frankensteins castle, is something that really excites me, as does a new Wizarding World area that will take us to another immaculately designed and detailed part of the Harry Potter universe.

Whether or not you respond to the IP, the park will be chock full of enormous, cutting edge dark rides, coasters, immersive fantasy design, and new ride systems we haven’t ever seen. Universal is sparing no expense. It’s also going to have a gorgeous new hotel from which you can walk right into the central hub, a la Grand Californian. This new park has the potential to be a game changer, and to lure more Disney Worlders to check it out, with 2, 3 or 4 night stays. And every minute they’re at Uni is a minute they’re not spending money at WDW.

A lot of Disney visitors aren‘t thrilled right now with all the extra charges and fees for what they perceive to be an increasingly diminished, lesser experience. Of course I‘m still an enormous Disney / DVC fan, but if management never responds to these issues, or if they get even worse, Universal has the potential to become a more and more viable alternative.

 

[sethschroeder]

Those aren’t all going to be in Epic Universe, they’re just a sample of some Universal IP. The Epic Universe lands are Super Nintendo World, How To Train Your Dragon, Universal Monsters, Wizarding World, and a huge central hub with additional rides, including an outer space themed dueling roller coaster. It’s going to have a different look and feel than a Disney park, but it‘s going to be good. Take a look at the renderings online. Hard not to get excited.

I had tried looking but only came really across the Super Mario stuff. Sounds like again Universal and Disney are not really crossing over for their target markets.

They ride mechanics might be exciting but as my initial thought not much there with great IP that crosses generations.

 

[mort1331]

As pp have shown us the land difference between the 2 areas is significant, but some say that does not matter. We have talked about the IP and what some like or are not interested in. But with the amount of land that Disney has over Universal does make a huge difference. They have been able to add resorts that others would be jealous of. The amount of rooms that Disney has directly associated with them is crazy compared to almost anywhere else, for 1 destination. Las Vegs being one of the few to have more than them.
That alone will keep WDW going over any other.
Remember without Disney, Universal or SeaWorld would be shells of what they are. People have been coming to central Florida for Disney. Not beaches, and not non-Disney as a destination.
This is ingrained in generations, like going to Las Vegas, or NewYork as a gotta go to place.
Money being diverted to Universal is like money being diverted to the new bachelor goto, Nashville. It takes some money away from Vegas,,,but it will not take down Vegas.
Having the multitude of rooms,,and now even more DVC rooms (hello GFV2 and Poly2) secures long term and repeat customers. Even if those consumers one or 2 years take their money down the street. They will be back.

 

[smmora]

For me on the West Coast - I don't know that it is one instead of the other, it just means a longer vacation - I've always gotten a car and not done theme parks every day, so it my mean less chill days

 

[DonMacGregor]

Disney needs to build Mega Ultra Entropic Multi-Verse.

That'll show everyone who's boss.

 

[Kjdisney]

I’m sure Epic will be a success, but I think it will hurt attendance at UO and IOA, more than WDW, especially if it has a Harry Potter land. My DH and I went to Universal and WDW over a very busy MLK week. We enjoyed a lot of the rides at Universal, but there are way to many 3D rides that got pretty repetitive. There just isn’t much to do but stand in line for a ride. Even with express pass you might be waiting longer than you think you should. Entertainment is sparse, there are no evening fireworks and very little live shows.

Epic is supposedly only 15 minutes down the road, but from the traffic we had in the area, that’s a bit optimistic during rush hour, so no Universal bubble. You aren’t ever going to do Epic and another park in a day. Given the logistics, it will be interesting to see if they even extend the express pass to Epic at current deluxes.

I do think everyone should try Universal. It is a totally different concept from WDW. It’s entire focus is rides, Disney is experiences and entertainment. UO/IOA is a great place for for families with older kids. There’s a lot of 48” rides, but very little a group of mixed age, toddlers to grandparents can do together. Unless you can spend 4 days there, you’ll find it just as expensive at WDW, more if you actually pay for express pass. You have to really enjoy riding the same ride multiple times if you are going to be there more than 2.

It was our first time back to WDW in over 10 years and our first to Universal and hands down we thought WDW was a much better value.
I’m sure we might still do 1 day at Uo/IOA if we stay a week, but if Epic lives up to the hype, we’ll combine with WDW, and I doubt I would ever go back to the other 2 parks.

 

[M:SpilotISTC12]

A 5th gate won't happen in my life time. Maybe my 1 year old daughter's lifetime. As long as they can cram people into hotels and over price the parks, they don't need to. People go no matter how crowded. People stay no matter what uninspired tower they put up every two years. Why spend the billions to build a park that takes 13 years to complete when people go to a construction wall food booth park already? It doesn't make business sense to do it.

 

[RivShore]

construction wall food booth park

 

[Jimmy Mouse]

Even with express pass you might be waiting longer than you think you should.

That's subjective. We have gone 3 times and had Express Pass every time. We have never waited more than 20 minutes for any ride, even during busy times like Christmas.

Entertainment is sparse, there are no evening fireworks and very little live shows.

We watched fireworks at UO twice at park close. They have the water/projection show with fireworks every night. They may have very little shows but they still have more shows than WDW right now. IIRC, Horror Make-Up Show, Borne Stuntacular, Animal Actors On Location, Blues Brothers show, the Harry Potter show over in Dragon Alley, The frog show in Hogsmeade, The music group with the tool (kinda like the janitors at wdw), Poseidon's Fury, Cavalcades, Super Star Parade, the Stories you hear show in Suess Landing, and 8-10 concerts or comedy shows a month in the theater at Hard Rock. To be fair, Poseidon's Fury has been in refurb but either just opened or opening this month.

 

[Slakk]

I think Disney can expand in their current parks before they build the 5th (years ago it was rumored to be Villans themed).

Epcot still has areas for more countries and with the newer rides shrinking in, there is an opportunity to add value. As it was built to Walt's vision vs as a true park I think it is taking some time to get it right but it is our must-do park. Animal Kingdom even today is still a half day park and thy could easily expand and add rides that cater more to the evening. DHS I still feel is really SW ad little kids and they could continue to add more attractions.

 

[gharter]

Agreed but couldn't the same have been said about HP? And that did not but any kind of noticeable dent in WDW's attendance. Maybe this one will since it's a full land but history shows their attendance is more correlated than taking from one or the other.

It might not have had an impact in attendance at WDW, but had a HUGE impact in crowds at Universal. I suspect it did have a negative effect on crowds at WDW to some degree.

 

[gharter]

I don't think Disney will do a 5th gate yet.
But it will be interesting to see what their response is.
IOA Hogwarts was built and we got next to nothing. It turned out to be a hit and WDW responded with expanded Fantasyland at the same time Diagon Alley opened.
Then we got Pandora and Galaxies Edge.
So what does WDW do to counter Epic Universe? I think this looks to be the first Universal park that seems aimed at the younger kids which is the target market for MK.

 

[tjkraz]

Building a 5th theme park would be the absolute worst thing Walt Disney World could ever do. As a guest, I don't need a new destination that sends me to another far-flung corner of Disney property. And I don't want them scraping the bottom of the Orlando labor pool for another 10,000+ employees.

Just add more stuff to the parks we already have.

 

[tjkraz]

It might not have had an impact in attendance at WDW, but had a HUGE impact in crowds at Universal. I suspect it did have a negative effect on crowds at WDW to some degree.

Disney theme park attendance continued to climb throughout the 2010s, even as Universal opened new attractions. There's an additive effect with US bringing new business into town, and Disney benefitting from those people spending a day or more at their property.

No guarantees it will be identical with Epic Universe. But there are people much smarter than you or I making those projections based upon mountains of historical data.

 

[lowlight]

Building a 5th theme park would be the absolute worst thing Walt Disney World could ever do. As a guest, I don't need a new destination that sends me to another far-flung corner of Disney property. And I don't want them scraping the bottom of the Orlando labor pool for another 10,000+ employees.

Just add more stuff to the parks we already have.

The problem with that is it stresses the existing infrastructure instead of spreading it out. Longer lines for monorail, longer entrance queues, QS times, bathroom lines, etc. unless they don’t expand capacity which would be pointless.

 

[MillauFr]

Staffing is the biggest issue currently. Even though Disney pays more than Universal they are struggling to attract workers.

 

[tjkraz]

The problem with that is it stresses the existing infrastructure instead of spreading it out. Longer lines for monorail, longer entrance queues, QS times, bathroom lines, etc. unless they don’t expand capacity which would be pointless.

Don't build any more monorail resorts. Don't worry about the number of people queuing to enter right at park opening. Build more infrastructure including restrooms, dining, etc.

The MK hosts 20 million guests per year. Epcot is around 12m, DAK and DHS are 10-11m. There are practical limits to expansion around each of the parks but we haven't reached it yet. And by the time we do reach it, each of those parks will have outdated duds which can be repurposed.

We need more Pandora / Galaxy's Edge type expansions, not another half day park that opens with 4 attractions and a couple shows.

 

[zavandor]

The Harry Potter attractions were supposed to hurt Disney. But they didn't. Instead it became additive. Universal saw gains in attendance, but Disney continued to climb too. The phrase "a rising tide lifts all boats" seems apt.

True, I'm the perfect example why. I live in the UK, so when coming to the USA it's always for a long vacation. If I go to Disneyland is as part of a bigger trip in California or the National Parks or whatever, never more than 4 days at DLR. The first time I went to Orlando was as part of a split vacation, one week in NY and one in Orlando at Disney. But Universal building Harry Potter prompted me to see Orland as a destination on its own, I now visit for 2 weeks, 11 nights at WDW and 3 at Universal and I even bought DVC. So, HP actually benefited Disney, I went for 6 nights to 11 nights per visit.
However, with a 4th Universal park, I'll almost certainly change my travel habits again, adding at least one night to Universal. So this time Disney will lose 9% of my time.

It's a matter of balance. A better player in the market sometime benefits everyone (a tide lifts all the boats), sometime will it will steal market share from others. Will Epic Universe steal market share from Disney? Maybe or maybe not, but certainly with 3 theme parks and one water park it's possible more and more people will see it as a vacation destination on its own. And if it's even easier to go just to Universal because they have a convenient train station right at the park doorstep, then...

 

[zavandor]

I had tried looking but only came really across the Super Mario stuff. Sounds like again Universal and Disney are not really crossing over for their target markets.

They ride mechanics might be exciting but as my initial thought not much there with great IP that crosses generations.

I'm 47 and I grew up with Nintendo games, I cannot wait to visit Super Nintendo World. If Japan weren't closed for visitors, I would have gone this year, but now it's coming to Orlando! Maybe not every generation, but the potential market is HUGE.

 

[sethschroeder]

I'm 47 and I grew up with Nintendo games, I cannot wait to visit Super Nintendo World. If Japan weren't closed for visitors, I would have gone this year, but now it's coming to Orlando! Maybe not every generation, but the potential market is HUGE.

I am younger so my entire childhood had Nintendo games from NES/SNES/Gamecube in college. I don't see the draw being as large as other IP.

Heck look at Jurassic Park. They are FINALLY actually taking more advantage of it. I see cartoons, I see the movie, I see tons of toys in the toy section, and I see the potential to build on that IP that long term could be a real draw.

I also think what hurts something like Mario is that at least to everyone I know we would rather play the games and be the character than go to a theme park but that may change once its actually complete and you see what's there. Movie/TV/Comic IP does much better for theme parks IMO since those are fixed entertainment while Video Games don't translate as well since you already have a plethora of interactive content.

Also for the record have owned basically every Nintendo handheld/console that has released and played most of the Mario based games that came out.