23 Magical Nights: Norway, Iceland, Scotland & the Baltics (with ABD add-on). UPDATED Complete!

[CaliforniaGirl09]

OMG, I cannot BELIEVE that I never read this report!! My only excuse was that I was in the middle of a move then, and just didn't have a lot of my brain left.

Wonderfully detailed. I have to throw in that I did the "Golden Circle" tour when I was in Iceland this summer, and I *LOVED* it!! After 10 days in London, it was nice to get out into nature, and see such gorgeous areas. I didn't make it to any other areas of Iceland, as I only really had 1 1/4 days there, but I loved what I saw. I know it's the "tourist" thing to do, but in this case, it was really amazing!

So sorry that your experience with the ABD add-on was so poor. I'm pretty sure I've said elsewhere that this was not my experience when I did the original Med-cruise add-on, but I think that one was very much "an ABD with the ship as the hotel". I think your comment about the audiences being different may be why the focus has changed to "PA's with ABD". It's a shame. But even with that first one, the sea days were woefully empty, except for an hour here or there, and dinner at Palo.

Although I know that you've switched ABDs, I'm still hopeful about the River Cruise. I got a good deal on my cabin (50% single supplement vs. the normal 100%) which may never be offered again, so this may be my one opportunity. The river cruises are WAY too expensive to do as a single otherwise. I've heard that they've paid attention to what we've been saying, and are planning more than just 2 tracks for the excursions each day. We'll see how that goes. My biggest concern about the River Cruise is the fact that it's 160 people and 8 Adventure Guides. So even if it works out that we have no more than 40 people per activity with 2 Guides, it's not going to be the same 40 people all week, or the same 2 Guides. So I'm likely to miss out on one of my favorite things about ABDs - the feeling you get of traveling with family. The Guides get to know everyone, and you get to know everyone on the trip. We had that on my Med cruise Add-on (39 people) but I'm not so sure how it will work on the River Cruise. But I'm willing to give it a try. If nothing else, I'll find out if I like River Cruising or not...)

Sayhello

Thanks so much for reading, SayHello--glad you enjoyed. It was a really fun trip, and we loved Iceland.

I still go back and forth whether cancelling the river cruise was the right thing. I actually think the best time to do an ABD trip is the first year they offer it--the price is usually much cheaper and they pack it full of great things to make it successful. After it's successful, that's when they start slimming it down (as we saw with Scotland--especially in year three of that one). I was just so worried about being on the very first cruise and them not having all the bugs worked out. I do agree with you though that they seem to have been responsive to our issues, and I think they are going to really try to make sure there aren't the kind of problems we had with the ABD add-on. I read your trip report a bunch of times, and I think the product and focus of the add-ons has really changed. You hit it at the right time--I wish we'd done one in 2011 on our Med trip.

 

[llqool]

Read your trip report with great interest. We are going on the 12 day cruise this summer that hits Norway/Iceland/Scotland (did the Baltic last summer). One of the things you didn't mention was how the seas were as you were travelling to Iceland. Was it rough? The Baltic was so calm last year. Also, how scenic was it cruising into Iceland and the more southern ports in Norway? (from what I'm reading, we miss the more "fjordy" parts of Norway: we are only going to Oslo, Kristiansand and Bergen)

 

[MeeskaMooska13]

Can you also tell me a little bit more about the tectonic plate snorkeling? We are doing this (thanks to your TR!) but wanted to get more details (like what did you wear underneath the dry suit and here did you get it). I would appreciate any info!

 

[CaliforniaGirl09]

Read your trip report with great interest. We are going on the 12 day cruise this summer that hits Norway/Iceland/Scotland (did the Baltic last summer). One of the things you didn't mention was how the seas were as you were travelling to Iceland. Was it rough? The Baltic was so calm last year. Also, how scenic was it cruising into Iceland and the more southern ports in Norway? (from what I'm reading, we miss the more "fjordy" parts of Norway: we are only going to Oslo, Kristiansand and Bergen)

You are going to have such a great time--we really loved this cruise. I don't remember any issue with the seas, so I'm assuming that means they weren't bad. I don't get seasick, but DD15 at the time definitely does. Jealous about Bergen. We didn't get a chance to do that port.

Can you also tell me a little bit more about the tectonic plate snorkeling? We are doing this (thanks to your TR!) but wanted to get more details (like what did you wear underneath the dry suit and here did you get it). I would appreciate any info!

Hope you enjoy it. I think it will remain on the family's one of the coolest things we've ever done list for a while We wore smartwool long underwear underneath. I found the actual website of the company (via google search of snorkeling at silfra) much more helpful than Disney's information. I actually wrote a long letter to DCL on the issue, but from your comment, it sound like they might not have done anything about it. You basically have to take off all your clothes outside--there is only a single bathroom--so you definitely want to be wearing your clothes underneath. Some people had to do bras and underwear (or just underwear for the guys) since jeans can't fit under the suit. I thought the warmth of long underwear really helped--especially for very low body fat DD15 who still did get cold. We also had on wool socks.

 

[MeeskaMooska13]

You are going to have such a great time--we really loved this cruise. I don't remember any issue with the seas, so I'm assuming that means they weren't bad. I don't get seasick, but DD15 at the time definitely does. Jealous about Bergen. We didn't get a chance to do that port.

Hope you enjoy it. I think it will remain on the family's one of the coolest things we've ever done list for a while We wore smartwool long underwear underneath. I found the actual website of the company (via google search of snorkeling at silfra) much more helpful than Disney's information. I actually wrote a long letter to DCL on the issue, but from your comment, it sound like they might not have done anything about it. You basically have to take off all your clothes outside--there is only a single bathroom--so you definitely want to be wearing your clothes underneath. Some people had to do bras and underwear (or just underwear for the guys) since jeans can't fit under the suit. I thought the warmth of long underwear really helped--especially for very low body fat DD15 who still did get cold. We also had on wool socks.

Thank you so much! I actually don't know if DCL is even offering this excursion - we booked through Extreme Iceland. The last time I checked with DCL, it wasn't listed but it may be available now.

 

[CaliforniaGirl09]

Thank you so much! I actually don't know if DCL is even offering this excursion - we booked through Extreme Iceland. The last time I checked with DCL, it wasn't listed but it may be available now.

No problem! Weird that DCL might not be doing it again--ours was sold out (max of 16 people as I recall). I think they had other sold out times as well. Have a great time!

 

[MeeskaMooska13]

I hate to keep bothering you with questions about the snorkeling, but does the dry suit actually keep you dry? I have no experience with this.

And is this the type of thing you are talking about?


If so, i can't seem to find bottoms or am I looking for the wrong thing?

Thanks so much in advance!

 

[CaliforniaGirl09]

I hate to keep bothering you with questions about the snorkeling, but does the dry suit actually keep you dry? I have no experience with this.

And is this the type of thing you are talking about?
View attachment 151867

If so, i can't seem to find bottoms or am I looking for the wrong thing?

Thanks so much in advance!

The dry suits do indeed keep you dry. I was one of the unlucky ones who had to wear a band around the neck to keep it tight--they check the fit of everyone--but it wasn't as horrible as I thought. The suits are two parts, a quilted cotton underlayer and then the suit itself. They are a pain to get on!

Yes, those are exactly like what we have--with the matching bottoms. The only reason I can think they wouldn't have the bottoms is that it's out of season? We bought ours on sale at 6pm and Amazon. They also have similar wool type of long underwear at ll bean, and probably others. I just love the smart wool brand, but they are expensive (even on sale). I'm happy to answer questions. This was something I definitely wish I'd had more info on before we went!

 

[CaliforniaGirl09]

Here are some bottoms at Amazon, but definitely google and shop around. You will probably find some on sale: http://www.amazon.com/SmartWool-SW-NP225-Smartwool-Womens-Midweight/dp/B008TZ3XH0

 

[MeeskaMooska13]

Oh my gosh! You are amazing! Thank you so much for your help! The tour company recommended two pairs of wool socks, do you advise that or is one pair enough?

 

[CaliforniaGirl09]

Oh my gosh! You are amazing! Thank you so much for your help! The tour company recommended two pairs of wool socks, do you advise that or is one pair enough?

No problem! I was fine with one pair of socks, but skinny DD16 probably would have loved two pairs. Maybe just one thick pair?

 

[abdgeek]

Thank you so much! I actually don't know if DCL is even offering this excursion - we booked through Extreme Iceland. The last time I checked with DCL, it wasn't listed but it may be available now.

Disney just added this excursion on their website a couple of weeks ago. It wasn't there the first time I went in to look at excursions, but it is now. And yes, it does mention that you need to wear long underwear under the suit! DCL listened. It looks exciting and is something I want to do, but the problem I am having is what to do in Reykjavik. I want to do the Blue Lagoon and the Golden Circle, but then I won't have time for this. I went to the Dive.IS website and looked at times, but I'm not sure the time they offer this coincides with when Disney is in port. I also looked at the DCL excursion, which is more--which I'm ok with because I know it will work with the timing, but there doesn't seem to be enough time. Arghhhhh.

 

[abdgeek]

11 Night Norway, Iceland and Scotland cruise:

GENERAL IMPRESSIONS: I think this cruise is going to be hard to beat. I would go back to Norway and Iceland in a heartbeat (I travel to Scotland once or twice a year so that’s a given). These are all extremely beautiful countries. The scenery is varied and very dramatic. Probably the most dramatic that we saw was Lysefjord in Norway.
TO BE CONTINUED for Cruise #2 ...

CaliforniaGirl09, thanks so much for doing a trip report on the 11 Night Norway, Iceland DCL Cruise. You don't know how long I looked on this website for info on what to expect, etc. I'm doing this cruise in July and can't wait. I'm doing Copenhagen on my own before the cruise because I decided not to book the Copenhagen pre-cruise ABD, but will try to follow their itinerary. Like Sayhello, I also did the ABD Med Cruise Add-on and thought it was definitely worth it. It's unfortunate that the Northern European ABD add-on may not have been.

Your excursion reports have really helped me narrow down what I want to see on the cruise. It looks as if they've changed Stavanger for Bergen and have reversed Reykjavik and Akureyi. However, I'm really concerned that we don't seem to be in port very long. Did you find that there were ports where you could do two excursions if you did them with DCL?

 

[abdgeek]

OMG, I cannot BELIEVE that I never read this report!! My only excuse was that I was in the middle of a move then, and just didn't have a lot of my brain left.

Although I know that you've switched ABDs, I'm still hopeful about the River Cruise. I got a good deal on my cabin (50% single supplement vs. the normal 100%) which may never be offered again, so this may be my one opportunity. The river cruises are WAY too expensive to do as a single otherwise. I've heard that they've paid attention to what we've been saying, and are planning more than just 2 tracks for the excursions each day. We'll see how that goes. My biggest concern about the River Cruise is the fact that it's 160 people and 8 Adventure Guides. So even if it works out that we have no more than 40 people per activity with 2 Guides, it's not going to be the same 40 people all week, or the same 2 Guides. So I'm likely to miss out on one of my favorite things about ABDs - the feeling you get of traveling with family. The Guides get to know everyone, and you get to know everyone on the trip. We had that on my Med cruise Add-on (39 people) but I'm not so sure how it will work on the River Cruise. But I'm willing to give it a try. If nothing else, I'll find out if I like River Cruising or not...)

Sayhello

I can't wait for your trip report about the River Cruise ABD! This ABD is now on my list(not sure when I can fit it in) because I've always wanted to do one. I can't say that I've ever wanted to visit the countries that are listed, but I am a Sound of Music fan and would love to see where it was filmed. I agree with your assessment that having 160 people and 8 ABD Guides will probably not lead to the level of intimacy and bonding that you usually have on an ABD trip. However, I have to say that I also saw a difference in the bonding that happened on the European vs the Australian ABD that I just took. Don't get me wrong, I had a great trip. However, several people commented that they felt parents treated the trip more of a family vacation than an adventure. It even took the kids longer to bond than it usually does and most sat with their families on the bus and not each other.

 

[abdgeek]

OMG, I cannot BELIEVE that I never read this report!! My only excuse was that I was in the middle of a move then, and just didn't have a lot of my brain left.

After 10 days in London, it was nice to get out into nature, and see such gorgeous areas. Sayhello

Sayhello, any tips you could share on London would be appreciated. I'm spending a week in London before going to Copenhagen for a couple of days and then the DCL Norway, Iceland cruise. It's been 25 years since I was in London, and I've already had to cross numerous things off my list because I won't have time to see them. Below are some questions I have.

Did you get an Oystercard online or when you got to London?
What tickets did you buy online in advance and which sites did you see by taking a tour?
Any other tips?

I looked at the London Pass, but for the sites I want to see it won't save me money. Thanks for the help.

 

[CaliforniaGirl09]

Disney just added this excursion on their website a couple of weeks ago. It wasn't there the first time I went in to look at excursions, but it is now. And yes, it does mention that you need to wear long underwear under the suit! DCL listened. It looks exciting and is something I want to do, but the problem I am having is what to do in Reykjavik. I want to do the Blue Lagoon and the Golden Circle, but then I won't have time for this. I went to the Dive.IS website and looked at times, but I'm not sure the time they offer this coincides with when Disney is in port. I also looked at the DCL excursion, which is more--which I'm ok with because I know it will work with the timing, but there doesn't seem to be enough time. Arghhhhh.

Can't help you there, LOL. I think the snorkeling was offered on both days we were in port last year so we had one full day and did the snorkeling late the afternoon the day we arrived. I want to say 4 pm.

CaliforniaGirl09, thanks so much for doing a trip report on the 11 Night Norway, Iceland DCL Cruise. You don't know how long I looked on this website for info on what to expect, etc. I'm doing this cruise in July and can't wait. I'm doing Copenhagen on my own before the cruise because I decided not to book the Copenhagen pre-cruise ABD, but will try to follow their itinerary. Like Sayhello, I also did the ABD Med Cruise Add-on and thought it was definitely worth it. It's unfortunate that the Northern European ABD add-on may not have been.

Your excursion reports have really helped me narrow down what I want to see on the cruise. It looks as if they've changed Stavanger for Bergen and have reversed Reykjavik and Akureyi. However, I'm really concerned that we don't seem to be in port very long. Did you find that there were ports where you could do two excursions if you did them with DCL?

I saw Bergen, and from what I hear that's a great port (and so a great change!). We didn't try to do two excursions with DCL, so not really sure. They run excursions really late though because of the last sunset. That may help you.

 

[sayhello]

I can't wait for your trip report about the River Cruise ABD! This ABD is now on my list(not sure when I can fit it in) because I've always wanted to do one. I can't say that I've ever wanted to visit the countries that are listed, but I am a Sound of Music fan and would love to see where it was filmed. I agree with your assessment that having 160 people and 8 ABD Guides will probably not lead to the level of intimacy and bonding that you usually have on an ABD trip. However, I have to say that I also saw a difference in the bonding that happened on the European vs the Australian ABD that I just took. Don't get me wrong, I had a great trip. However, several people commented that they felt parents treated the trip more of a family vacation than an adventure. It even took the kids longer to bond than it usually does and most sat with their families on the bus and not each other.

I'm definitely looking forward to this trip! I was supposed to do the Central Europe ABD last summer, but ended up going to London with friends, instead, but it definitely was for the best because so much of it would have overlapped with the River Cruise! It's not my "top 10" list of places to see, either, but I really want the experience of river cruising. We shall see! Which one was the trip that folks weren't as inclusive? Was that the European tour or the Australian one?

Sayhello, any tips you could share on London would be appreciated. I'm spending a week in London before going to Copenhagen for a couple of days and then the DCL Norway, Iceland cruise. It's been 25 years since I was in London, and I've already had to cross numerous things off my list because I won't have time to see them.

Feel free to ask all the questions you want! I love London. If you're a Harry Potter fan, the Warner Bros Studio Tour is a must do! Just outside of London, *very* easy to get to, and full of so much Harry Potter goodness!! The new "Harry Potter and the Cursed Child" play by JKRowling is also opening this summer. If I was going to London, I would definitely be checking that out!

Below are some questions I have.

Did you get an Oystercard online or when you got to London?

I got it once I was in London. It's really easy to just go into any tube station and buy it at one of the windows there. They'll ask you for a deposit, which you can get back (along with any balance remaining on the card) if you turn it back in before you leave. I'm not sure if that works if you buy it online before hand.

What tickets did you buy online in advance and which sites did you see by taking a tour?

I bought the tickets for the Warner Bros Studio tour well ahead of time, as well as tickets to tour Buckingham Palace, and to the Doctor Who Experience in Cardiff. Also, you need to get tickets *well* ahead of time if you want to do the Ceremony of the Keys. It's a fabulous ceremony they do each night, around 9:30pm, I think, at the Tower of London. It's free (except for like a £1 service charge) but you need to get tickets because they limit the number of people who can come in, and they sell out very quickly. Also, I ended up not being able to go, but if you want to check out Madame Tussauds Wax Museum, you should buy those tickets ahead of time, also.

We also took an actual day-long tour to see Stonehenge, Oxford and Windsor Castle. I really, really enjoyed that. I highly recommend Evan Evans tours, they did an excellent job, and they are one of, I believe, only 3 tour operators that offer "Sunrise or Sunset" tours of Stonehenge that get you in there before or after hours, and you are allowed to walk in and amongst the stones! Most people have to stay outside a rope that encircles the stones. It was an amazing experience!

There is also a company called "London Walks" that does a large range of walking tours around London. They are *very* reasonable (most tours are around £10 - with children under 15 free if accompanied by parents) and really amazing tours. I've taken a few of them, and have never had a bad tour (they've actually all been excellent!) You don't buy tickets; you just show up at the designated starting place for the tour you want at the designated time, £10 cash per person in hand, and off you go. I *HIGHLY* recommend them. Their website is www.Walks.com.

Any other tips?

Using the tube is an easy way to get around London, and the Oystercard is *definitely* the way to go. But DON'T take the tube to/from the airport with luggage!! It will be a nightmare! Not all stations have elevators, pretty much all of them have TONS of stairs, and just getting on & off the trains with luggage can be horrid! If you need to take public transport, take the Heathrow Express train to Paddington Station, then a cab to wherever your hotel is.

I looked at the London Pass, but for the sites I want to see it won't save me money. Thanks for the help.

I've never used the London Pass, so I can't really comment on that.

Feel free to ask any other questions you have! I'll be happy to answer!

Sayhello

 

[MeeskaMooska13]

I'm definitely looking forward to this trip! I was supposed to do the Central Europe ABD last summer, but ended up going to London with friends, instead, but it definitely was for the best because so much of it would have overlapped with the River Cruise! It's not my "top 10" list of places to see, either, but I really want the experience of river cruising. We shall see! Which one was the trip that folks weren't as inclusive? Was that the European tour or the Australian one?

Feel free to ask all the questions you want! I love London. If you're a Harry Potter fan, the Warner Bros Studio Tour is a must do! Just outside of London, *very* easy to get to, and full of so much Harry Potter goodness!! The new "Harry Potter and the Cursed Child" play by JKRowling is also opening this summer. If I was going to London, I would definitely be checking that out!

I got it once I was in London. It's really easy to just go into any tube station and buy it at one of the windows there. They'll ask you for a deposit, which you can get back (along with any balance remaining on the card) if you turn it back in before you leave. I'm not sure if that works if you buy it online before hand.
I bought the tickets for the Warner Bros Studio tour well ahead of time, as well as tickets to tour Buckingham Palace, and to the Doctor Who Experience in Cardiff. Also, you need to get tickets *well* ahead of time if you want to do the Ceremony of the Keys. It's a fabulous ceremony they do each night, around 9:30pm, I think, at the Tower of London. It's free (except for like a £1 service charge) but you need to get tickets because they limit the number of people who can come in, and they sell out very quickly. Also, I ended up not being able to go, but if you want to check out Madame Tussauds Wax Museum, you should buy those tickets ahead of time, also.

We also took an actual day-long tour to see Stonehenge, Oxford and Windsor Castle. I really, really enjoyed that. I highly recommend Evan Evans tours, they did an excellent job, and they are one of, I believe, only 3 tour operators that offer "Sunrise or Sunset" tours of Stonehenge that get you in there before or after hours, and you are allowed to walk in and amongst the stones! Most people have to stay outside a rope that encircles the stones. It was an amazing experience!

There is also a company called "London Walks" that does a large range of walking tours around London. They are *very* reasonable (most tours are around £10 - with children under 15 free if accompanied by parents) and really amazing tours. I've taken a few of them, and have never had a bad tour (they've actually all been excellent!) You don't buy tickets; you just show up at the designated starting place for the tour you want at the designated time, £10 cash per person in hand, and off you go. I *HIGHLY* recommend them. Their website is www.Walks.com.

Using the tube is an easy way to get around London, and the Oystercard is *definitely* the way to go. But DON'T take the tube to/from the airport with luggage!! It will be a nightmare! Not all stations have elevators, pretty much all of them have TONS of stairs, and just getting on & off the trains with luggage can be horrid! If you need to take public transport, take the Heathrow Express train to Paddington Station, then a cab to wherever your hotel is.

I've never used the London Pass, so I can't really comment on that.

Feel free to ask any other questions you have! I'll be happy to answer!

Sayhello

FYI: the Ceremony of the Keys is fully booked through mid-September, according to their website.

 

[sayhello]

FYI: the Ceremony of the Keys is fully booked through mid-September, according to their website.

Wow! I knew they booked up early, but that's *really* early!

Sayhello

 

[abdgeek]

I'm definitely looking forward to this trip! I was supposed to do the Central Europe ABD last summer, but ended up going to London with friends, instead, but it definitely was for the best because so much of it would have overlapped with the River Cruise! It's not my "top 10" list of places to see, either, but I really want the experience of river cruising. We shall see! Which one was the trip that folks weren't as inclusive? Was that the European tour or the Australian one?

Feel free to ask all the questions you want! I love London. If you're a Harry Potter fan, the Warner Bros Studio Tour is a must do! Just outside of London, *very* easy to get to, and full of so much Harry Potter goodness!! The new "Harry Potter and the Cursed Child" play by JKRowling is also opening this summer. If I was going to London, I would definitely be checking that out!

I got it once I was in London. It's really easy to just go into any tube station and buy it at one of the windows there. They'll ask you for a deposit, which you can get back (along with any balance remaining on the card) if you turn it back in before you leave. I'm not sure if that works if you buy it online before hand.
I bought the tickets for the Warner Bros Studio tour well ahead of time, as well as tickets to tour Buckingham Palace, and to the Doctor Who Experience in Cardiff. Also, you need to get tickets *well* ahead of time if you want to do the Ceremony of the Keys. It's a fabulous ceremony they do each night, around 9:30pm, I think, at the Tower of London. It's free (except for like a £1 service charge) but you need to get tickets because they limit the number of people who can come in, and they sell out very quickly. Also, I ended up not being able to go, but if you want to check out Madame Tussauds Wax Museum, you should buy those tickets ahead of time, also.

We also took an actual day-long tour to see Stonehenge, Oxford and Windsor Castle. I really, really enjoyed that. I highly recommend Evan Evans tours, they did an excellent job, and they are one of, I believe, only 3 tour operators that offer "Sunrise or Sunset" tours of Stonehenge that get you in there before or after hours, and you are allowed to walk in and amongst the stones! Most people have to stay outside a rope that encircles the stones. It was an amazing experience!

There is also a company called "London Walks" that does a large range of walking tours around London. They are *very* reasonable (most tours are around £10 - with children under 15 free if accompanied by parents) and really amazing tours. I've taken a few of them, and have never had a bad tour (they've actually all been excellent!) You don't buy tickets; you just show up at the designated starting place for the tour you want at the designated time, £10 cash per person in hand, and off you go. I *HIGHLY* recommend them. Their website is www.Walks.com.

Using the tube is an easy way to get around London, and the Oystercard is *definitely* the way to go. But DON'T take the tube to/from the airport with luggage!! It will be a nightmare! Not all stations have elevators, pretty much all of them have TONS of stairs, and just getting on & off the trains with luggage can be horrid! If you need to take public transport, take the Heathrow Express train to Paddington Station, then a cab to wherever your hotel is.

I've never used the London Pass, so I can't really comment on that.

Feel free to ask any other questions you have! I'll be happy to answer!

Sayhello

Thanks for all the great ideas!! Warner Bros Studio is definitely on my list. Unfortunately, previews and initial shows for the Harry Potter play is already sold out until May 2017. I put my name on a waitlist in case someone returns their tickets, but I'm not too hopeful. However, I did get a reservation at Gordon Ramsay Restaurant, so I'm super psyched about that. In addition to all the museums, Tower of London, Kensington Palace, Madame Tussaud's, etc., I also want to go to Liverpool to see the Beetle's Experience. I just have to decide if I want to do the logistics on my own or book a tour. I wanted to tour Buckingham Palace, but that won't be open to the public when I'm there. Oh well, that just means I'll have to come back.

The Australian ABD was the one where people weren't as inclusive. It was unfortunate because some people even remarked that they didn't feel that they were in the in group.